U.S. Men 2018-19 season (cont.) - news & updates

[jlai]

Judges are not chosen because they are human.

I am pretty sure being a human being is absolutely a criterion, lol!
ANd we are human too. Who's to say we are more right than others (and the judges)?

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

I thought his outfit was cute. I love his new short hair look too. It makes him look sexy.

Do you really think Jason's fugly bowling shirt hasn't inspired much discussion?

 

[Marco]

Jason, Vincent and Tomoki will face competition from Keegan, Nam, Boyang, Shoma, Kozuki, Keiji and Junhwan.

Tough competition especially from JPN, KOR and CHN. Top five can be doable for Jason, not sure about medals. I do think this would be a great opportunity to test out the 4sal again.

Now that Tomoki gets 4CCs, I kind of want 3 other men to make Jr Worlds just so the wealth is spread around a little amongst the pool of talents.

 

[misskarne]

It was a gorgeous fabulous perfect free skate. It was the kind of skate we used to expect from a champion level men's performance and have not expected for years and years now. I have no problem with the 10's.

I have an enormous problem with the 10s because I'm pretty sure if Max had ever been given 10s for a jump-jump-jump free skate with bare minimum interpretation and choreography you all would have been screaming the house down in horror. As I recall, people were freaking out when Max was given 81 PCS by an international panel for a perfect, fabulous, gorgeous clean free skate. He got very little more at Nationals that year and that was apparently just too generous for many of you.

 

[Vagabond]

I have an enormous problem with the 10s because I'm pretty sure if Max had ever been given 10s for a jump-jump-jump free skate with bare minimum interpretation and choreography you all would have been screaming the house down in horror. As I recall, people were freaking out when Max was given 81 PCS by an international panel for a perfect, fabulous, gorgeous clean free skate. He got very little more at Nationals that year and that was apparently just too generous for many of you.

Jeffrey Buttle was given 78.78 PCS by an international panel for a perfect, fabulous, gorgeous clean free skate when he won his World Championship.

Max Aaron, bless him, wuzgifted.

 

[mackiecat]

Should we change the name of this thread to “The Costume Thread”?

Or does someone have something to say about a US man’s skating?

We have 3 guys competing at 4 Continents in like a week. Can Jason medal again? How will Vincent fare in front of international judges - can he beat Jason again? Can he medal?

Vincent may run into a very tough caller at 4CC, depends on the draw.

 

[Willin]

I think Nathan's artistry and PCS are underrated. Yes, he's not on par with Jason and Jason should've been given higher PCS, and I don't think he's at Hanyu's level either, but he's certainly better than Max was. His steps are difficult and varied, he has good upper body movement and expression with his body. He's fast and has good (but not amazing) skating skills. He's also one of the best skaters at choosing music that will hide his lack of more traditional/classical skating artistry: Nemesis, Caravan, the EDM section of Land of All, etc. Even the FS last year had some great choreographic moments in it.
I would say that his choreography this year does seem a bit watered down or less interesting than last year, but Nemesis in particular was such a great program I don't know how he could top that. I also think the change from 4:30 to 4:00 in the FS had some effects. Because there's less time interesting transitions and choreographic moments between elements, all of the men's skaters but those like Hanyu and Brown have had to make sections of their program more back and forth than ever.

@mackiecat After Nationals I don't think having an easy caller will save him from URs...

 

[Marco]

Vincent may run into a very tough caller at 4CC, depends on the draw.

Well the Nationals caller called 4 out of his 6 quads as UR / DG. He is already quite tough (but fair). I do think he will be quite disadvantaged against the Japanese and the Korean.

 

[Max Enchilada]

I have an enormous problem with the 10s because I'm pretty sure if Max had ever been given 10s for a jump-jump-jump free skate with bare minimum interpretation and choreography you all would have been screaming the house down in horror. As I recall, people were freaking out when Max was given 81 PCS by an international panel for a perfect, fabulous, gorgeous clean free skate. He got very little more at Nationals that year and that was apparently just too generous for many of you.

Amen!!! I donut understand how Nathan could get such big PCS when he did not stop at center ice and gaze wistfully at the audience and wave his arms! And do we know if he picked his music becasue he liked it and wanted to skate to it?!

 

[MAXSwagg]

After this Nationals I don’t want to hear ANYTHING about Russian Nationals inflation. This US nationals judges basically made a mockery of the system. This was even worse than V/M’s “perfect” free dance, though one can argue they are good enough to warrant a score like that. I’ve found that US fans are some of if not the most hypocritical fans. But this is my opinion, of course (since we have to state that).

 

[MAXSwagg]

I have an enormous problem with the 10s because I'm pretty sure if Max had ever been given 10s for a jump-jump-jump free skate with bare minimum interpretation and choreography you all would have been screaming the house down in horror. As I recall, people were freaking out when Max was given 81 PCS by an international panel for a perfect, fabulous, gorgeous clean free skate. He got very little more at Nationals that year and that was apparently just too generous for many of you.

Nathan trained ballet. Max didn’t. Don’t you know?

 

[GreatLakesGal]

Nathan trained ballet. Max didn’t. Don’t you know?

And don't forget that Nathan is going to Yale and Max did not go to Yale. But if you do somehow manage to forget that Nathan is going to Yale, don't worry because an NBC commentator will remind you about it every time Nathan's name is mentioned.

 

[barbarafan]

Nathan trained ballet. Max didn’t. Don’t you know?

Training it and being balletic are 2 diff. things. He should have good pC's but not ridiculous ones.

 

[DreamSkates]

Well the Nationals caller called 4 out of his 6 quads as UR / DG. He is already quite tough (but fair). I do think he will be quite disadvantaged against the Japanese and the Korean.

Hopefully he will continue to work on the URs and clean one more then one more...until he can fully rotate them all.

 

[barbarafan]

Hopefully he will continue to work on the URs and clean one more then one more...until he can fully rotate them all.

That sounds like a plan but didn't his coach say he does not underrotate . In that case will the coach work on it or just deny deny deny?

 

[skatesindreams]

I trust the judges in the arena more than "armchair experts".

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

No fault to Nathan, but the long program is constrained by the content. Said here before when you have some many big elements to set up/do/recover artistry suffers. The short was quirky/interesting, the long not so. Javier's 2016 World long to me an example of a great balance. And, the audience loved it.

 

[Simone411]

I trust the judges in the arena more than "armchair experts".

So do I, @skatesindreams. You know, being a loyal fan of figure skating for so many years (since at least around 1969), it's made me appreciate the sport more than ever. There has been unfair judging and scandal during the Olympics in the past, and it was called out.

I have to give the judges at present a lot of credit. They now have to go back and replay the skater's jumps, etc. I believe also that a judge has one of the hardest jobs because there will always be others that question them, criticize them, don't agree with them and even request an investigation if not satisfied with the scores a judge gave the skater.

I truly don't know if I would want to be a judge because of the pressure and also it being questionable about the scores that were given.

Also being as old as I am now, I've been going by a new set of codes for Senior Citizens that were given to me by a friend.

At this time, I'm LMDO and ROFL ... CGU. I also GHA after reading this thread, but did remember WTP were at. And that caused a little problem, OMSG!!

I really enjoyed the U.S. Nationals, and very proud of our U.S. Men. Job well done and bravo!

 

[Jayar]

I have an enormous problem with the 10s because I'm pretty sure if Max had ever been given 10s for a jump-jump-jump free skate with bare minimum interpretation and choreography you all would have been screaming the house down in horror. As I recall, people were freaking out when Max was given 81 PCS by an international panel for a perfect, fabulous, gorgeous clean free skate. He got very little more at Nationals that year and that was apparently just too generous for many of you.

Oh. My. God. Move. On.

 

[Sylvia]

Assigned to Challenge Cup, Feb. 21-24 in The Hague are Peter Liu (4th in Junior at Nationals) and Daniel Martynov (Intermediate silver medalist; this will be his international debut). USFS' International Assignments page has added the Bavarian Open assignments; Challenge Cup is still to be confirmed there.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I think Nathan's artistry and PCS are underrated. Yes, he's not on par with Jason and Jason should've been given higher PCS, and I don't think he's at Hanyu's level either, but he's certainly better than Max was. His steps are difficult and varied, he has good upper body movement and expression with his body. He's fast and has good (but not amazing) skating skills. He's also one of the best skaters at choosing music that will hide his lack of more traditional/classical skating artistry: Nemesis, Caravan, the EDM section of Land of All, etc. Even the FS last year had some great choreographic moments in it.
I would say that his choreography this year does seem a bit watered down or less interesting than last year, but Nemesis in particular was such a great program I don't know how he could top that. I also think the change from 4:30 to 4:00 in the FS had some effects. Because there's less time interesting transitions and choreographic moments between elements, all of the men's skaters but those like Hanyu and Brown have had to make sections of their program more back and forth than ever.

@mackiecat After Nationals I don't think having an easy caller will save him from URs...

“Good” skating skills warrants a 7.50, maybe an 8.00. Not 10.00.

No fault to Nathan, but the long program is constrained by the content. Said here before when you have some many big elements to set up/do/recover artistry suffers. The short was quirky/interesting, the long not so. Javier's 2016 World long to me an example of a great balance. And, the audience loved it.

US Nationals judges will tell you Nathan’s was better.

 

[dinakt]

Nathan's LP was foot-perfect, the landings were a thing of beauty, the movements were to the music, he is highly expressive. Give judges a break, people, they got as enthusiastic as we did, it's Nationals.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Nathan's LP was foot-perfect, the landings were a thing of beauty, the movements were to the music, he is highly expressive. Give judges a break, people, they got as enthusiastic as we did, it's Nationals.

Judges are there to do a job, and are in a position of power. Bad judging should not be given a break in any circumstance. What is the point of having a system with explicitly defined guidelines and scoring criteria if they just say screw it and do whatever?

 

[skateboy]

That sounds like a plan but didn't his coach say he does not underrotate . In that case will the coach work on it or just deny deny deny?

Tom Z stuck up for Vincent after SA, but he did not claim that Vincent does not underrotate, he actually acknowledged it.

What Tom Z said was that he and the rest of the team were working stringently on Vincent's UR issue, and that he felt that Vincent was unfairly dinged for some of the jumps, that he felt were within the allowed range of receiving full credit. The commentators agreed with him.

Does Vincent underrotate? Yes, he does. But he doesn't underrotate everything, all the time. I noticed, in the mens warmup last weekend, Vincent was shown doing a perfect, flat back quad toe loop. Not even a hint of a hook. And he sometimes hits his quad Lutz perfectly, as well as the 3A. The 4S looks to be his most cheated jump, at least to me.

So I do think there's hope that Vincent can improve. Even if he does, it's going to be an uphill battle, because "once an underrotator, always an underrotator" (i.e., Mirai). If one goes back and looks, Jason's second 3A in the LP was definitely under, but there was no call. I can't help but feel that, had it been Vincent doing the same jump exactly the same way, he would have been dinged for it.

 

[skateboy]

Judges are there to do a job, and are in a position of power. Bad judging should not be given a break in any circumstance. What is the point of having a system with explicitly defined guidelines and scoring criteria if they just say screw it and do whatever?

All of these national federations are trying to one-up each other, it's quite obvious (and ridiculous).

Inflation aside, I think we can agree that, in most cases, the placements are correct.

 

[Tavi]

Tom Z stuck up for Vincent after SA, but he did not claim that Vincent does not underrotate, he actually acknowledged it.

What Tom Z said was that he and the rest of the team were working stringently on Vincent's UR issue, and that he felt that Vincent was unfairly dinged for some of the jumps, that he felt were within the allowed range of receiving full credit. The commentators agreed with him.

Does Vincent underrotate? Yes, he does. But he doesn't underrotate everything, all the time. I noticed, in the mens warmup last weekend, Vincent was shown doing a perfect, flat back quad toe loop. Not even a hint of a hook. And he sometimes hits his quad Lutz perfectly, as well as the 3A. The 4S looks to be his most cheated jump, at least to me.

So I do think there's hope that Vincent can improve. Even if he does, it's going to be an uphill battle, because "once an underrotator, always an underrotator" (i.e., Mirai). If one goes back and looks, Jason's second 3A in the LP was definitely under, but there was no call. I can't help but feel that, had it been Vincent doing the same jump exactly the same way, he would have been dinged for it.

Jason’s 3A was reviewed though - the box was yellow. So maybe from their angle it was okay.

 

[wickedwitch]

Jason’s 3A was reviewed though - the box was yellow. So maybe from their angle it was okay.

From the angles I saw, it was a generous call, much like many calls for the men in the competition.

 

[Tahuu]

Nathan’s PCS this season with major errors such as falls and botched jumps were around 45 short and 90 long.

His short at GPF with a missed 4T3T combo (5.70) was 92.99, without considering anything else but replacing it with a perfect 4T3T (19.82), he’d have 107.11. Considering he skated with energy and speed to the demanding Caravan I don’t see giving him 113.42 by the judges is much of an inflation.

His long at nationals was perfect, miles better than any man has produced under the new IJS. The slow music at the opening allowed him to take time with the 4Lz and 4F. As the vocal came in after the 2nd jump, there were plenty of transitions that matched the music into the 3A and 4T. After the midpoint of the program the pace of the music picked up so did his jumps and movements. The choreo sequence matched the music perfectly. Under the electrifying national atmosphere, the judges were carried away a little and gave him 10’s for performance and interpretation and a total PCS of 98.50. I think his perfect execution of the elements and performance would get him similar GOEs and probably 95 PCS with an international panel. Again, it’s not much of an inflation.

I always enjoy the pains Nathan’s performances inflicted on Karne and Maxswagg.

 

[Red Hot Chili Keegan]

Nathan's LP was foot-perfect, the landings were a thing of beauty, the movements were to the music, he is highly expressive. Give judges a break, people, they got as enthusiastic as we did, it's Nationals.

I did not get that enthusiastic over Nathan’s LP. These days, I only get enthusiastic on a trip to Albuquerque when I see a Victoria’s Secret and can purchase some new underwear to show off for my husband.

 

[Tavi]

From the angles I saw, it was a generous call, much like many calls for the men in the competition.

That may well be, but it doesn’t really matter - my point was that the tech panel reviewed it and made a decision, not that they came to the right decision.