The Problem with Body Image in Figure Skating

[mag]

I agree it should be a positive, but it isn’t, especially for figure skaters. Until it is, I think we should refrain from using it. Saying a figure skater has gorgeous cut arms or abs is quite different than saying they have a muscular build. I would prefer we not make comments on how people look, but the former is better than the latter.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Can we please not refer to female skaters as having “muscular builds?” I know you are not thinking of this as a negative, but for many it is a code for being fat. I think it is best if we refrain from making specific comments like this.

Then those who think that "muscular" is synonyms with "fat" simply lack basic education and basic use of etymology, that is so easily available in oh, so progressive western societies and simply by googling.... they post half-naked fotos of themselves, but can't google a word origin.. which even without googling and looking at the root, means "muscles" and therefore "power"..... since for centuries "muscles" associate with "power" and "strength"...... thus "survival" which is not a "negative".

Female muscular..... can be beautiful... http://www.sashacohen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/sasha-cohen-feet.jpg and then there is Arthemida... still thin, but muscular... lives alone in the woods, animals love her, and she loves animals, and men too.. occasionally when she wants them to.... now that's "muscular" is not it..
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...illes-l.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131208092738

 

[AxelAnnie]

Can we please not refer to female skaters as having “muscular builds?” I know you are not thinking of this as a negative, but for many it is a code for being fat. I think it is best if we refrain from making specific comments like this.

Nothing wrong with being muscular. Not saying someone is muscular doesn't make it less so. People have large bones, small bones, long legs, less long legs....just the way people are. Calling them something less doesn't change their build or make them "prettier". Sasha is long and lean..........and still filled with muscles. Gabby more compact....she is not long and lean. That does not make her fat, and it isn't a code word for something.

 

[mag]

Nothing wrong with being muscular. Not saying someone is muscular doesn't make it less so. People have large bones, small bones, long legs, less long legs....just the way people are. Calling them something less doesn't change their build or make them "prettier". Sasha is long and lean..........and still filled with muscles. Gabby more compact....she is not long and lean. That does not make her fat, and it isn't a code word for something.

Gabby is actually very similar in size to Sasha except that Gabby is a bit smaller with more muscle definition.

I have a child in figure skating. I know what they think when they hear “muscular build.” If you have any empathy in you at all you will refrain from using that term. You don’t need to agree or even understand, but please believe me when I tell you it is part of the problem not part of the solution and you wishing it were different doesn’t make it so.

 

[lurkz2]

The discussion about "weight and body" today, thanks to PC-trends and trying to make everyone equal and "empower the weak, destroy the powerful", is pretty much reflected by a sculpture in Sweden..... ... those "lucky to be born thin or aka starving skinny ones, that so few people can be naturally" vs. "real women have curves, so no matter how huge you are, you're beauuuuuuutiful, because to be thin one must have a fortune and/or right genetics"..
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/LA2-vx06-konsthallen-skulptur.jpg

Those who are not born to look like models, can become mathematicians, NASA scientists, doctors, professors.....
Those who are not born with body types (even with hard work and maintenance) to be Sasha Cohens, Trusovas, Alysia Lius, and can't do quads and 3A, should either find another sport or activity, or a accept their 2nd tier results.

Each area of activity has "types" which are more likely to succeed. Either you challenge them, if you don't have the merrits, or find another activity.

Brainwashing people into equality for all, when the criteria for success is based on "merit", or any form of social engineering that fights one's natural trends, will lead to hindrance in evolutionary process, in life or in various venues.

Lighter people, or those with a certain proportion of muscles and physical characteristics, can do better jumps in skating. One is either thin and light (given other abilities) or one coordinates "physics" to do quads and 3A.

Either you have it or work on it, or you don't... and no need to curb the ones who have it all by nature or by work, like limiting quads, and starting a campaign against youngsters who are learning quads and 3A.... Evolution.

Those creatures who made tools such Acheulean handaxes became humans, those who did not remained monkeys.. and i don't want a lecture on Orangutans and Chimpanzees and the 1.5% and 3.7% elements of neanderthal's DNA in "certain" breeds of humans or refs to evil Darwin or Nietzsche..

This. While eating disorders are a serious issue in sport, it is a basic fact that with the same muscular development it will be easier to complete a jump with a lighter body. In the Butyrskaya interview thread she was quoted as saying some of her jumps only worked while she was at a certain weight.

In a similar way, performance anxiety is another serious issue in sport, but the essence of sport remains measuring performance at a specific point in time.

I guess you either:

1. Focus on the sport that is the best balance between your inclination and body type - for example, while Nathan Chen seems to want to be a basketball player based on his posts, his body type is far more suited to figure skating. Thing is, a figure skating coach will be blamed for fat shaming if he says he can't make elephants fly, while it is very much the norm for basketball coaches to prefer/select taller players for his team.

(Hanna Miller was quoted as saying "for a year I let someone constantly tell me I wasn’t thin enough and as a result I began to believe it” and coincidentally she was with a certain coach for a year.)

2. Find a way to be competitive with your body type. Simone Biles certainly overpowered the waifish body type that was thought to be preferable in gymnastics.

 

[Japanfan]

nm

 

[Japanfan]

I have a child in figure skating. I know what they think when they hear “muscular build.” If you have any empathy in you at all you will refrain from using that term. You don’t need to agree or even understand, but please believe me when I tell you it is part of the problem not part of the solution and you wishing it were different doesn’t make it so.

Then the thinking is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

The baby ballerina and the pwetty pwincess are only two possible images/types for female skaters. A female skater can also be strong, muscular and powerful (i.e. Mae Berenice Mette). If there were more of the latter, there would be a greater variety of body types in the women's field as there are in the men's field. There would probably also be a greater variety of programs. We would probably see ladies do more 3As and quads. Perhaps there would concurrently be a trend towards more healthy eating and away from disordered eating.

All of which would be good for the sport.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Howzabout referring to a gal as 'Well Toned'? That would describe Gabby Daleman & Joannie Rochette, without implying that they are either 'fat', or the skating equivalent of the Williams sisters in tennis.

 

[rfisher]

Can we please not refer to female skaters as having “muscular builds?” I know you are not thinking of this as a negative, but for many it is a code for being fat. I think it is best if we refrain from making specific comments like this.

I don't equate muscular with fat. To me that is Duhamel and Savchenko who most assuredly doesn't have an extra ounce of body fat on her. But, her fitness routine is such that she is muscular. It is one of the reasons she can do the things she does on the ice. But, fitness is hard and sometimes, more difficult than simply not eating.

 

[lurkz2]

Howzabout referring to a gal as 'Well Toned'? That would describe Gabby Daleman & Joannie Rochette, without implying that they are either 'fat', or the skating equivalent of the Williams sisters in tennis.

I can hardly wait for the skating equivalent of the Williams sisters in tennis (or at least a Simone Biles type) to make it big!

 

[lala]

I can hardly wait for the skating equivalent of the Williams sisters in tennis (or at least a Simone Biles type) to make it big!

No, I don't.

 

[pat c]

Gabby is actually very similar in size to Sasha except that Gabby is a bit smaller with more muscle definition.
I have a child in figure skating. I know what they think when they hear “muscular build.” If you have any empathy in you at all you will refrain from using that term. You don’t need to agree or even understand, but please believe me when I tell you it is part of the problem not part of the solution and you wishing it were different doesn’t make it so.

We forget TV distorts. These athletes are tiny in person in comparison to the general population. And that's a hard sell to convince young women especially.

Howzabout referring to a gal as 'Well Toned'? That would describe Gabby Daleman & Joannie Rochette, without implying that they are either 'fat', or the skating equivalent of the Williams sisters in tennis.

Fit. They look fit. No indictation of size, weight number, nada. You look fit.

 

[mag]

Then the thinking is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

The baby ballerina and the pwetty pwincess are only two possible images/types for female skaters. A female skater can also be strong, muscular and powerful (i.e. Mae Berenice Mette). If there were more of the latter, there would be a greater variety of body types in the women's field as there are in the men's field. There would probably also be a greater variety of programs. We would probably see ladies do more 3As and quads. Perhaps there would concurrently be a trend towards more healthy eating and away from disordered eating.

All of which would be good for the sport.

I think we are saying the same thing. I agree the muscles are good and that having different shapes and sizes in figure skating is a positive thing (trust me, I have the trainer bills to prove I like muscles!) My problem is with people being insensitive to how teenage girls think. Adults can rationalize all they like, the can say a thousand times that a “muscular build” is a good thing and a positive comment; the reality is that many teenage girls will not take it that way. So why risk it? It is like calling Starr a “novelty act.” Some might not mean it as derogatory, but if it is offensive to the person, why use it? There are millions of words in the English language, choose different ones. Especially with teenagers we need to pick our battles. This just doesn’t seem like smart one to pick.

 

[Guinevere]

Just wanted to add something very quickly that I heard watching the Canadian nationals this week. Commentators themselves sometimes make comments that they may think are kind and encouraging but can be heard in a negative way. For example, during the ice dance competition, Tracy Wilson, who I think is quite well respected out in the skating community, said about one skating team, that they looked beautiful together and are "long and lean" and look great on the ice because of it. I remember hearing that and thinking, well what about those who aren't "long and lean?" I'm pretty sure she didn't say that about other skaters, so it seemed that, in an attempt to compliment one team, she sort of inadvertently insulted others. If I heard it, someone with a tendency for poor body image definitely heard it. And to hear it from someone of her status and respect, that would also definitely play on people's opinions of themselves.

There was another skating commentator who is retired, Debbie something I think who once had a skating show on Canadian TV in the 90s. She was doing a tribute to G&G and she also commented about how "refreshing" it was to see G&G on the ice when they returned to amateur status, and singled out Gordeeva for her long, lean, body type as the aesthetic she preferred. Those types of comments definitely don't help either.

And myself, as a viewer, I'm guilty of it too. I have a certain style I like and I think that certain body types suit that look better than others.

 

[lala]

Just wanted to add something very quickly that I heard watching the Canadian nationals this week. Commentators themselves sometimes make comments that they may think are kind and encouraging but can be heard in a negative way. For example, during the ice dance competition, Tracy Wilson, who I think is quite well respected out in the skating community, said about one skating team, that they looked beautiful together and are "long and lean" and look great on the ice because of it. I remember hearing that and thinking, well what about those who aren't "long and lean?" I'm pretty sure she didn't say that about other skaters, so it seemed that, in an attempt to compliment one team, she sort of inadvertently insulted others. If I heard it, someone with a tendency for poor body image definitely heard it. And to hear it from someone of her status and respect, that would also definitely play on people's opinions of themselves.

There was another skating commentator who is retired, Debbie something I think who once had a skating show on Canadian TV in the 90s. She was doing a tribute to G&G and she also commented about how "refreshing" it was to see G&G on the ice when they returned to amateur status, and singled out Gordeeva for her long, lean, body type as the aesthetic she preferred. Those types of comments definitely don't help either.

And myself, as a viewer, I'm guilty of it too. I have a certain style I like and I think that certain body types suit that look better than others.

I agree with Tracy. The FS is an aesthetic sport. They look great but not only such type of skaters can win. Remember Midori.

 

[misskarne]

Thing is, a figure skating coach will be blamed for fat shaming if he says he can't make elephants fly, while it is very much the norm for basketball coaches to prefer/select taller players for his team.

And so he fcuking should be, because the "elephant" in question was Adam Rippon. Who then promptly developed an issue with his eating habits resulting in malnutrition and a broken foot. Adam Rippon, an elephant, because he wasn't a little stick. God, I'd hate to hear what Arutunian thought of Max.

Meanwhile, height is purely genetic and not at all something anyone can control. It's not like coaches say "you're not tall enough" and then basketballers go starve themselves or whatever.

When I think about it, actually, Max got the short end of the stick twice. "not big enough" for hockey, so he broke his back lifting too heavy to try and bulk up. "too big" for figure skating, so he had to stop lifting to try and lean out and made concerning comments about changing up his diet.

 

[pat c]

@Guinevere that would be Debbi Wilkes.

and yes @lala all sports in a way have an aesthetic component - just the fitness level is attractive. You (general you) might not watch soccer, but we all know who Beckham is. But yes, you don't have to be a particular body type to succeed. Yes, Midori, Jayne Torvill, Irina Rodnina, Elvis Stojko and on and on.

But that doesn't really matter what body type the successful have, it's the motivation to keep young ones from developing eating disorders and to have a positive body image. And that is a problem. I have no solutions. Parents try and make sure that doesn't happen, but they can't control peer pressure, coaching pressure, casual remarks.

 

[mag]

Meanwhile, height is purely genetic and not at all something anyone can control. It's not like coaches say "you're not tall enough" and then basketballers go starve themselves or whatever.

I don’t know about basketball, but I do know of a number of skaters who starved themselves in an attempt to not grow any taller. I know of one 15 year old who was taking medication of some sort to close her growth plates so she would stay small enough for pairs. If you think girls who aren’t stick thin have a tough time, you should walk in the shoes of any tall female figure skater.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Every body loves Maria, right? She is sweet, feminine, mature skater, etc..
Here is a clip of Maria Butyskaya’s interview in Russian, there is part about body weight and what she has done to help her own students. The segment starts @ 7:16 (warning: UN-PC… and! Butyskaya’s interviews are hell to translate. She does not speak in complete sentences, skips from one subject to another, exclaims and uses jargon, changes cases and misuses conjugations, also uses hand gestures sometimes instead of words. all affects translation.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usI5H1x9f5U

Interviewer: So I know you never ate in the mornings, and stepped on the ice always with an empty stomach (hungry stomach)…
MB: Oh, yes, that was so... You can’t go on the ice with food in your belly, you eat, then get drowsy, food makes you sleepy.

You need to be angry.. when you’re hungry it makes you angry.. and when a person is angry, that what makes you want to go and accomplish out there, during practice.. it sets you right.

Interviewer: And with your girls (students)? You also mentor them on what not to do.. “girls don’t eat”?
MB: Oh, yes! The weight is such an issue… there is this constant fight/struggle.. Not exactly “don’t eat”, but as I say… all problems come from too much weight…

Interviewer: Are you serious?
MB: Oh, yes… it (weight) means injuries, it makes it harder to do jumps.

Interviewer: So the girls can’t handle it on their own to lose weight?
MB: That too, and all sorts of, you know.. (problems)… I have to take some of them to my house, make them live with me for about a week…

Interviewer: .. and then what?
MB: just like that… Yes! (one week with me) and bang! (ta-dah) they loose 5 kg, like it was chopped off!

Interviewer: Maybe you can take me to your home?
MB: I was just thinking… maybe I can make it a business. Bring people to my house for a week, arrange them to diet right….. and in 1 week 5 kg is gone.

You know how it is… everyone likes chocolate, a piece of chocolate here, a piece of pastry there…. Then at night (you get hungry) and take an apple…. Even an apple at night is bad for you. Fruits in general, any fruit should not be consumed after lunch time (12 pm).

Interviewer: What about those girls’ parents? They don’t object/resist?
MB: Oh no! not at all…

Interviewer: They are happy …
MB: Oh, yes… they totally trust me, completely… (to a point where…) even I sometimes have to encourage their involvement, come and see things for yourself, come and see how your child’s training is going… don’t leave me with all the responsibilities, even if you’re sure that I will do everything for them, what’s right..

***

 

[bladesofgorey]

Well that's absolutely horrifying and just proves that there's some systemic encouragement of disordered eating among young girls in Russian figure skating. That was your point right?

 

[Japanfan]

There was another skating commentator who is retired, Debbie something I think who once had a skating show on Canadian TV in the 90s.

@Guinevere that would be Debbi Wilkes.

SFAIK Debbie is not retired. She took a position with Skate Canada a few years back and I think she is still in it.

For example, during the ice dance competition, Tracy Wilson, who I think is quite well respected out in the skating community, said about one skating team, that they looked beautiful together and are "long and lean" and look great on the ice because of it. I remember hearing that and thinking, well what about those who aren't "long and lean?" I'm pretty sure she didn't say that about other skaters, so it seemed that, in an attempt to compliment one team, she sort of inadvertently insulted others. If I heard it, someone with a tendency for poor body image definitely heard it. And to hear it from someone of her status and respect, that would also definitely play on people's opinions of themselves.

Skaters are going to get positive and negative messages about their bodies in various ways - through both what people say and what people don't say.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I think anyone needs to be careful about how they approach the topic of body image. I did have someone comment on a physical attribute about a skater from a state I was involved with and suggest I might say something. I responded that it be inappropriate, particularly as the skater is a teenager and the subject was probably quite embarrassing for the skater.

 

[Japanfan]

MB: just like that… Yes! (one week with me) and bang! (ta-dah) they loose 5 kg, like it was chopped off!

MB: You know how it is… everyone likes chocolate, a piece of chocolate here, a piece of pastry there…. Then at night (you get hungry) and take an apple…. Even an apple at night is bad for you. Fruits in general, any fruit should not be consumed after lunch time (12 pm).

She must be exaggerating when she says 5 kg a week. Most female figure skaters are tiny and I would guess weigh in the range of 95-110 pounds (maybe 110 is high). 5 kg is a lot for such a small person to lose in one week.

No fruit after 12 noon is just crazy IMO.

Well that's absolutely horrifying and just proves that there's some systemic encouragement of disordered eating among young girls in Russian figure skating. That was your point right?

In some cases 'encouragement' may become 'requirement' - as in staying at someone's house for a week where their food consumption can be controlled and monitored.

I remember reading (in The Second Mark) that when the Chinese female pair skaters were weighed in and found to have gained more than 2 pounds, their punishment was having to eat in the coaches lounge for a period of time. It happened to Zhua Shen after she drank two diet cokes on one of the rare occasions when her parents came to visit her.

I also read that the Chinese Federation would take the carb snacks that Pang stashed in her bag away from her if she skated poorly. But that was just posted on the board, and may not be true.

 

[honey]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a female figure skater who has not had comments made about their weight or appearance.

I distinctly remember the first time I was made aware that I was not the ideal body type. I had just turned 6 and was testing out my very first competition dress in front of my coaches. The dress was bright pink, with a puffy 5-layered skirt. I LOVED this dress and felt so happy wearing it. As soon as I walked out of the change room in the dress, my main coach (a man in his 40s) made a face and said we should remove some of the skirt layers because "it makes her hips look big". How this would even be possible on a 6 year old, I do not know. I was an average sized 6 year old, but taller than many of my skating peers who tended to run very petite.

This kind of thing happens at all levels, every day. It is engrained from day one that smaller=better. This goes for weight and height. @mag could not be more right about the comments towards a tall girl in figure skating.

I accept that this is an aesthetic sport, and there are certain advantages to a small, petite body. However, I do not think girls should be made to feel less than for not having that body type, and even more so when their skating is not suffering because of it.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

Butyrskaya is right that weight affects skaters' abilities to do jumps and other elements, plus a few pounds can actually make one more prone to injury. This is a concern that has been raised by many coaches so I will give them the benefit of the doubt. For this reason, it's the coaches' and skaters' responsibility to watch their weight and keep it around what is considered an ideal level for the skater (which differs from skater to skater).

Of course this does NOT mean body image issues should be ignored, and I haven't seen any competitive figure skater that needed to lose 5kg.. It's a fine line that needs to be figured out.

Different body types/frames/etc. are a separate issue from weight however, and skaters should not be shamed for that. Some skaters just have what is considered more of a 'ballerina' body which many classicists believe to be most beautiful, but it does not mean that other skaters should feel inferior for their body type.

 

[Lanie]

Not in skating but in gymnastics when I was young there was so much pressure on us, some of us prepubescent, to look a certain way. I never experienced it in skating but I remember being told I was too dumpy for skating even when I was under 100 lbs at 4'11". I have short, stocky legs. Imagine a slightly taller Shawn Johnson I don't think federations are too invested in helping cure this problem. Yes, Maria is right, but judging by what we have all read in these interviews from Russian skaters they even think drinking water will impede their weight. We all know the stories of Igor and Marina weighing the gals before they'd go skate and if they weighed too much, nope, can't skate. It is systemic, endemic, and I have no clue what the answer could be here. A culture change must happen...

 

[mag]

Butyrskaya is right that weight affects skaters' abilities to do jumps and other elements, plus a few pounds can actually make one more prone to injury. This is a concern that has been raised by many coaches so I will give them the benefit of the doubt. For this reason, it's the coaches' and skaters' responsibility to watch their weight and keep it around what is considered an ideal level for the skater (which differs from skater to skater).

I would agree with this except that not eating properly and not having supporting muscles is much more likely to lead to injury than a few extra pounds. Furthermore, weight means very little. Body composition and actual size (height and diameter) have much more affect on performance.

 

[Guinevere]

Speaking of Shawn Johnson, she said she was only eating 700 calories a day to keep herself slim because of people’s idea of the “ideal” body. 700!!! While an elite gymnast!! I eat at least double that while sitting at a desk all day typing (and it shows of course...)

https://people.com/sports/shawn-johnson-talks-about-eating-disorder-would-eat-700-calories-a-day/

 

[Japanfan]

Butyrskaya is right that weight affects skaters' abilities to do jumps and other elements, plus a few pounds can actually make one more prone to injury.

I would agree with this except that not eating properly and not having supporting muscles is much more likely to lead to injury than a few extra pounds. Furthermore, weight means very little. Body composition and actual size (height and diameter) have much more affect on performance.

And trading strength and energy for a lower weight due to a restricted diet could also make it harder for a skater to land the jumps.

 

[Tinami Amori]

We all know the stories of Igor and Marina weighing the gals before they'd go skate and if they weighed too much, nope, can't skate.

Before Igor and Marina, USA ice dance hardly had any medalists for decades..

It is systemic, endemic, and I have no clue what the answer could be here. A culture change must happen...

Go ahead change the "culture" and brainwash people into believing that "big is beautiful"
... but in sports you can't change the laws of physics..