The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[aka_gerbil]

It's bothering me too but may be in this case it is just general impression that a team H/D with 5.6 and 6.4 height makes on judges with their ice coverage etc.

I’ve seen h/d live a couple of times and they do genuinely have fantastic ice coverage.

Also, there’s no way Madi is only 5-6. My sister is 5-6 and my mom is 5-7. She has at least a couple of inches in height over them. I think she’s at least 5-8.

 

[Dobre]

I like the choreographic step sequences also. They are interesting and fun and when you sit on the judges' side, it can make a big impact to see that sequence coming toward you.

Though, I realized, at SA that there is a flip side to it you don't realize when watching on TV or watching from the judges' side of the audience. Namely, that if you plan your choreographic steps as the climax of your program and all facing forward toward the judges, then the impact on the majority of the audience (usually sitting on the other side of an arena) isn't too great. So, you know, most of the time that's not going to seem like a big deal. The judges are the people who do the marking. But if you're hoping for a huge crowd response to the climax of your program at Worlds, you're maybe going to find it a bit lackluster. So maybe plan something else as well to grab the whole audience at the very end of the program? Or play to more than one side of the arena in your sequence.

 

[jiejie]

I've seen Madison Hubbell up close in person, in flats not skates. I'd say she is every bit of 5-8. And not sure if this makes sense, but she "projects" even taller.

 

[RoseRed]

I’ve seen h/d live a couple of times and they do genuinely have fantastic ice coverage.

Also, there’s no way Madi is only 5-6. My sister is 5-6 and my mom is 5-7. She has at least a couple of inches in height over them. I think she’s at least 5-8.

She's 5'8" based on her ISU bio, or more accurately 172 cm.

 

[Colonel Green]

Also, there’s no way Madi is only 5-6. My sister is 5-6 and my mom is 5-7. She has at least a couple of inches in height over them. I think she’s at least 5-8.

See also, here's her standing at level beside Tiffany Zahorski.

 

[Debbie S]

I think Madi has said/written that she is 5'8" and I think Zach is around 6'1" or 6'2".

 

[aka_gerbil]

Here's another article on Christina's visa being denied.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/m...eem-her-extraordinary-2018-10-23?link=sfmw_tw

I keep reading the line about the awards not being directly awarded to her and scratching my head. Part of this overlaps with some of the text we've already seen.

The awards “were not directly awarded to you,” the August decision said. “They were awarded for your performance as part of a sports team…[W]e do not consider such honors to be a nationally or internationally recognized prize or award for excellence in the field of endeavor, because it is limited to members of that association and participants of those competitions.”

I know several people have given reasons why she may or may not be considered exceptional, but it seems that the particular reason that was given is not based on any sort of logic about how this or any other sport works. I'm pretty sure the competitions they've won were directly won by them.

 

[Dobre]

Yes, it would be rather difficult for a dance team to win a competition without the lady.

 

[aka_gerbil]

The explanation also seems to be saying that because countries have to be members of the ISU to compete in Jr. Worlds, et al, then worlds, jr. worlds, Olympics, etc. (or that skaters have to be USFS members for nationals) then world, olympic, and national titles and medals are therefore not nationally or internationally recognized as an award of excellence in figure skating.

If they'd made the claim that there were US citizens with the same talents and potential or that they hadn't yet won enough medals to be considered exceptional, that would be one thing. Instead, they're giving this nonsense reason that somehow C/P did not directly win their medals and that because skating has an international and national governing body, then the top awards for excellence aren't actually for real awards of excellence in this sport.

My head hurts.

ETA:
These are the three evidentiary criteria which would apply to Christina's case:

*Receipt of nationally or internationally recognized prizes or awards for excellence in the field of endeavor

*Membership in associations in the field for which classification is sought which require outstanding achievements, as judged by recognized national or international experts in the field

*Published material in professional or major trade publications, newspapers or other major media about the beneficiary and the beneficiary’s work in the field for which classification is sought

How does the necessity of number 2 not contradict what USCIS is saying now? If I'm not mistaken, the gave her points 2 and 3 and said it was point 1 she didn't fulfill.

 

[princeton123]

The awards “were not directly awarded to you,” the August decision said. “They were awarded for your performance as part of a sports team…

I wonder what UCSIS's full explanation for their denial says. Because this definitely makes it sound like at least part of their decision is because they don't think she's 'extraordinary' enough, and that they don't see what she can do that an American citizen can't.

 

[Dobre]

Thoughts heading into SC:

-Skate Canada has not been won by a non-Canadian team for the past 9 years.

-Somehow Sinitsina & Katsalapov have sufficiently trainwrecked themselves out of the final group in the RD. Classic.

-Smart & Diaz haven't made it into the final group either. (Ah, those Olympic year 4CC points).

-Elek is on the panel. I think he does not believe in level 4 footwork sequences and is disinclined to believe in level 3s at the start of the season.

-For the second GP in a row, the technical controller is from Russia.

-Skoptcova & Aleshin are skating to Maria de Buenos Aires. Because clearly we needed more.

-On the plus side, Skoptcova & Aleshin are actually competing; which I am glad to see.

-Gilles & Poirier go up after Hubbell & Donohue in the RD.

Looking forward to the battle for silver. Will not mind if it turns out to be a battle for gold.

 

[Colonel Green]

-Skate Canada has not been won by a non-Canadian team for the past 9 years.

SCI and SkAm ice dance had that home-team-winner streak going for equal periods (the longest such in any Grand Prix in any discipline), but it probably comes to an end this year for SCI, unless the judges are willing to make things more interesting than I expect them to.

 

[Bigbird]

I am perplexed. I've looked at the training videos for S/A, why are their lifts so shaky? Why do their coaches feel the need to give them unnecessarily difficult lifts when everything else seems so smooth? Why not try to have overall a palatable program that will be embraced by the judges? It doesn't have to be the MOST difficult program.

What a waste of a first impression.

 

[GreenGan]

-Somehow Sinitsina & Katsalapov have sufficiently trainwrecked themselves out of the final group in the RD. Classic.

Let's see how they skate their RD. I forgot how good their choreo was, intricate and very tangolike. Such a contrast with Stepanova/Bukin.

-Gilles & Poirier go up after Hubbell & Donohue in the RD.

Looking forward to the battle for silver. Will not mind if it turns out to be a battle for gold.

It will depend if G/P hit their level. It's Skate Canada after all, and skating on home ice always emulate you. I'm curious about the Chinese score. And who will win the battle between the Gadbois team : Soucisse/Firus - Lauriault/Le Gac - Smart/Diaz.. My favourite are S/F, but S/D are more experienced.

 

[yurokis40]

Hoping for a big breakthrough for Gilles and Poirier, its about time the judges reward their uniqueness and talent that FD is a stunner.

 

[Colonel Green]

People who didn’t like Piper’s Nebelhorn RD dress have won out, apparently. She’s now got a powder blue dress on in practise.

 

[Eisfee]

People who didn’t like Piper’s Nebelhorn RD dress have won out, apparently. She’s now got a powder blue dress on in practise.

It's her FD dress from 2 years ago.

 

[Wyliefan]

It's her FD dress from 2 years ago.

I thought it looked familiar! I always thought that dress looked really nice on her.

 

[levineismine]

She had the NHT dress yesterday for the RD practice so she may be using the old one just for practice today.

 

[kittysk8ts]

People who didn’t like Piper’s Nebelhorn RD dress have won out, apparently. She’s now got a powder blue dress on in practise.

I love that RD dress! Love the dance itself too

 

[Dobre]

Let's see how they skate their RD. I forgot how good their choreo was, intricate and very tangolike. Such a contrast with Stepanova/Bukin.

I like S&K's RD quite a lot. Think it is their strength this season.

 

[Bigbird]

I like S&K's RD quite a lot. Think it is their strength this season.

It's good choreography but the execution is still tentative. They're better in the FD. If only Tiffany wasn't recovering from injury. I think she and John have great programs this year.

 

[oleada]

I am perplexed. I've looked at the training videos for S/A, why are their lifts so shaky? Why do their coaches feel the need to give them unnecessarily difficult lifts when everything else seems so smooth? Why not try to have overall a palatable program that will be embraced by the judges? It doesn't have to be the MOST difficult program.

What a waste of a first impression.

Maybe because she was injured over the off season? They weren't even at the test skates or competed at any pre- GP events.

 

[Bigbird]

Maybe because she was injured over the off season? They weren't even at the test skates or competed at any pre- GP events.

I should clarify. The lifts looked particularly shaky because they are just very difficult. They could have achieved the same levels with less demanding lifts.

 

[starrynight]

We discussed the GOE changes a lot in the off season, but we are starting to really see the impact they are having on ice dance now.

For example, Hubbell/Donohue getting a level 1 on their tango romantica pattern would have once been a bit of a disaster, but the GOE smooths it over so it made little difference. (Much like how a level 2 TR pattern got a higher score than a level 4 pattern at Skate America).

I think it's clear now that a level 1 pattern will and can be awarded +4 to +5 GOE and this will easily outscore other teams with higher levels. I think teams who are guaranteed the highest GOE will be feeling fairly relaxed about the rhythm dance. It's not going to be like other seasons where top teams messed up levels and there were shock results. The GOE will stop that from happening. I don't know if we will see any surprises in the results this season unless teams can politik higher GOE.

 

[skatingguy]

We discussed the GOE changes a lot in the off season, but we are starting to really see the impact they are having on ice dance now.

For example, Hubbell/Donohue getting a level 1 on their tango romantica pattern would have once been a bit of a disaster, but the GOE smooths it over so it made little difference. (Much like how a level 2 TR pattern got a higher score than a level 4 pattern at Skate America).

I think it's clear now that a level 1 pattern will and can be awarded +4 to +5 GOE and this will easily outscore other teams with higher levels. I think teams who are guaranteed the highest GOE will be feeling fairly relaxed about the rhythm dance. It's not going to be like other seasons where top teams messed up levels and there were shock results. The GOE will stop that from happening.

It's too bad they didn't make the GOE scoring for the Ice Dance as simple as the other disciplines - keeping the factored GOE's makes it more difficult to see the scoring clearly.

 

[Debbie S]

I think it's clear now that a level 1 pattern will and can be awarded +4 to +5 GOE and this will easily outscore other teams with higher levels. I think teams who are guaranteed the highest GOE will be feeling fairly relaxed about the rhythm dance. It's not going to be like other seasons where top teams messed up levels and there were shock results. The GOE will stop that from happening. I don't know if we will see any surprises in the results this season unless teams can politik higher GOE.

It feels like we've gone back to the days of 6.0, where judges (usually as a bloc) gave teams the scores they were 'supposed' to get, and short of a fall (and sometimes not even that), actual technical execution that day didn't matter. And it took years for a team to politik their way up.

I know the TS shouldn't solely determine the winners/medalists, but neither should protocol/bloc judging. But I don't have any solutions.

 

[starrynight]

It feels like we've gone back to the days of 6.0, where judges (usually as a bloc) gave teams the scores they were 'supposed' to get, and short of a fall (and sometimes not even that), actual technical execution that day didn't matter. And it took years for a team to politik their way up.

I know the TS shouldn't solely determine the winners/medalists, but neither should protocol/bloc judging. But I don't have any solutions.

Should the compulsory steps of the rhythm dance be at least scored differently to make sure that teams are required to do them properly to get high marks for them? Like perhaps call the pattern on levels alone?

I don't know. But then some teams look so much better doing the pattern even if their steps are all getting NNNY compared to other teams getting YYYY.

With the GOE now you can flub the steps of the pattern and it doesn't matter. Sort of just turns it into a mini free dance and takes away the 'compulsory steps' aspect of it.

And this is only TES we are talking about... PCS is another dumpster fire as well! I keep forgetting that GOE is actually the technical mark and we also have PCS.

 

[Dobre]

Crossposting from the Kiss & Cry:

Personally, I think there's a current disconnect in dance between the marks we've been getting with this system for the levels and the execution. Too many plus 3s & 4s for level 1s & 2s. Either the execution rules need to be tightened or the judges need to be hearing what levels are being earned.

I think this is where the judging system designed to stop bad quad attempts from the men just doesn't really work for dance and especially set patterns.

Agreed. I'm loving the new system for the men, and I'm disliking what it is doing to the dance. At the very least, the judges need to know what levels are being earned. +4s & +5s for Stepanova & Bukin's level 1 twizzles in Finlandia. Sinitsina & Katsalapov have a total mess on a third of their twizzles and still get pluses here. Hubbell & Donohue have a Level 1 for the first portion of the pattern and get +3s and +4s while McNamara & Carpenter earn Level 4 and get +1s, +2s, and a +0 on the second part of their pattern at SA. It's a pattern. All teams execute the exact same required steps. No one's is more creative. And between H&D, Z&G, and M&C there was next to no difference in speed. The GOE marks are not reflecting the actual execution of the elements. I thought that accuracy of the steps was supposed to be one of the mandatory first 4 bulletpoints prior to any +4s being handed out. But the judges do not even seem to know when the steps are accurate.

 

[Dobre]

I don't think it's just an issue for the pattern. It's an issue on the steps, spins, twizzles, etc. Maybe we do need a requirement that no one can receive above +2 with a level lower than a 3. Something along those lines. Something that isn't subjective & alerts the judges that a lower level has been earned. I think they should know when a level 4 is earned as well.