2018-19 Singles & Pairs Scale of Values, Levels, and GOE guidelines

[kwanfan1818]

People are invested in all kinds of reality shows, even though they know they are scripted and an asshat judge like Nigel can tell an audience whom not to vote for in the finals.

 

[Aussie Willy]

And yet most sports involve some type of judgment. All sports with balls have referees and umpires that make judgments about whether the rules have been breached. Races involve judgment about whether someone had a false start, crossed a lane or failed to pass within the zone. And one can find many examples where the winner was determined by such a call.

Definitely. Great point.

 

[Marco]

It is impossible to prevent national bias if wider discretion is given to the judge. Because they only judged with the wide discretion given to them.
"+3" can be attached to the performance of a certain element, and "-2" can also be attached.
It is difficult to point out that judgment of a judge is wrong under such rules.
We will not be able to condemn or eliminate Chinese judges. We are repayed from the judge of China that "I only gave a point I thought was correct".

https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplon/the-edge?utm_term=.dajd0oXZB#.jmQZm3YDj

Toigo told BuzzFeed News. “We are human beings, not machines. I judge what I think. ”

By increasing the discretion of the discretion of the judges, the sense of inequality and problems of this sport will increase.

The problem of national bias is solved only by specifying the rules finely and narrowing the discretion of the judges.

Some of it is national bias I am sure, but most of it I think is just plainly different judges have different opinions / preference. Some prefer the height, some prefer the flow. If they must form the same view, then why have more than 1 judge?

The matter is really how any unreasonable judging anomaly is detected and followed up. I am sure Vanessa Riley would be able to explain her scores for Surya Bonaly. Who knows, perhaps she got questioned /challenged for her scores by the ISU all the time? I am just glad that at least ISU is looking into some of the judging analomies, whether I agree or not.

 

[Willin]

@Marco Some of it is national bias, but I agree that part of the "National Bias" is simply that different nations value different parts of skating or have different preferences.

At least what I've heard is there's stereotypes about judges based on their country. For example, since in Russia skating is seen as more artistic or balletic, Russian judges are said to prefer skaters who take from ballet or use balletic music. Coaches in that same country may have the same preference for balletic music and choreography, so their preferences match up leading the judges to score higher simply on preference. US judges appear to care less about URs and lutz edge calls on a local and national level, so perhaps they're more forgiving on an international level as well - which appears as a bias since the UR/edge call problem is mostly associated with US skaters. Etc. Etc.
Until someone double-checks that, I can't say if it's an actual thing or not, but certainly it would be something interesting to check out. For instance, will a US judge give higher GOE to a skater who consistently URs or !'s regardless of nationality? Will a Russian judge give higher PCS to a balletic skater or Russian-coached skater regardless of nationality?

 

[Marco]

Russian judges valuing ballet? Their biggest star from mid-1990s to mid 2000s was Irina Slutskaya.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

Some of it is national bias I am sure, but most of it I think is just plainly different judges have different opinions / preference. Some prefer the height, some prefer the flow. If they must form the same view, then why have more than 1 judge?

The matter is really how any unreasonable judging anomaly is detected and followed up. I am sure Vanessa Riley would be able to explain her scores for Surya Bonaly. Who knows, perhaps she got questioned /challenged for her scores by the ISU all the time? I am just glad that at least ISU is looking into some of the judging analomies, whether I agree or not.

So, why was the ISU able to punish the Chinese judge? If judges can judge according to their own ideas, there will be no reason to punish Chinese judges. A Chinese judge will say. "I judge what I think."

If the measures to compete are not common, you can not compete and compare.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euzl3f0BngA
http://fsrussia.ru/results/1617/rusnat1617_eng/Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Mikhail KOLYADA
4Lz Fall
J8 GOE　＋２
J2　GOE ＋1

Mikhail KOLYADA 's 4Lz Fall has GOE of -3 to +2.
Even in the case of Fall, it is possible to give any score.
Under such a judging system it is the same as not having rules. Judges will give their favorite competitors a favorite score as you like.
Firstly, the problem with figure skating judge is that the rules are not well defined.

 

[Marco]

So, why was the ISU able to punish the Chinese judge? If judges can judge according to their own ideas, there will be no reason to punish Chinese judges. A Chinese judge will say. "I judge what I think."

If the measures to compete are not common, you can not compete and compare.

Apparently the judge could not justify his/her own scores.

 

[Coco]

I want to see 5 ISU officials on the technical panel, the GOE bullets paired down to aspects that deal with technique, form, height and speed only, and the GOE assessed by the technical panel. The remaining bullet points can be reallocated to one of the components and the judges from the various countries can just judge components, perhaps with 2 corridors instead of 1.

Actually, having said that, there is so much overlapping in a few of the component categories that they need a major overhaul if 2 corridors is every going to be justified.

But the sport needs a way to recognize and reward creativity and high performance quality for skaters who lack the speed and high base value of the top 5-10 in the world.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

To punish a judge, you need to indicate that the judge violates the rules. It is difficult to punish that judge if the judges give points in the discretion given. Do you punish them for reasons that they made judgments far away from the judge average? However, there is a possibility that the majority of judges are wrong．

https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplon/the-edge?utm_term=.gddWnpg1Q#.mwW2MXPmO

But more sinister forces could also be at work. At least three current and former ISU officials said judges sometimes collude to down-vote certain countries and up-vote others. Coaches and judges often lobby — sometimes subtly, sometimes blatantly — for skaters from their countries, these officials said. And in some cases, they said, scores for a particular skater are all but predetermined.
“Sometimes you’re on a panel where five or six people have agreed to what they’re going to do and what range they’re going to mark and how they’re going to go after a team,” explained another judge. In those cases, she said, someone who does not participate in that collusion, and whose scores therefore do not align with the others on the panel, “can look like they’re biased when in fact they are not.”


After all, only by specifying the rules in detail, the problem of national bias can not be solved. For example, in the case of fall, it is necessary to take the final GOE must-5. Because it is obvious failure to anyone's eyes.

As long as judges are free to judge, they only repeat the national bias. By expanding the range of GOE, the problem will be more serious and fans will be doubtful about fairness as sports. In the modern era, fans can also participate in discussions through the Internet. Today is different from the time of the 6.0 system.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

This is the next problem that the rules are not well defined.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplon/the-edge?utm_term=.rnD4G28Jn#.bkoNKRqLb

But a major problem remains built into the system, current and former officials said: Each country’s skating program chooses its own judges. The US Figure Skating Association chooses the American judges who will go to the Olympics, the Russian association chooses the Russian judges, and so forth. This process, the officials said, creates incentives for bias: National federations want judges who will give their skaters the best scores. If judges “do something that’s not liked, then their country will just remove them and appoint a different judge,” said Tim Gerber, a former US national-level skater.

Why does not ISU directly manage judges like other sports?
Judges should be separated from their national federations and independent positions should be established. This is the second problem.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Judges should be separated from their national federations and independent positions should be established. This is the second problem.

Unless you have a competition that doesn't have a judge from any of the countries competing, then you are always going to have a judge from a country that a competitor is from.

And the whole idea of judges representing the ISU is to remove that national bias.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

At least, I think that the ISU should directly manage the chosen judge.

I also do not understand that judges and technical specialists take pictures with specific competitors, or support or praise a particular competitor in SNS. Judges are similar to judges in court.Will people trust fairness of the trial if the judges are taking pictures with one of the parties? I can not understand why Norway's proposal was not accepted. I think that is the evidence that ISU does not think about fairness.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Skating is a very small community in the scheme of things. Everyone knows everyone else.

Having said that, as a judge (not an international one but certainly senior in my country), you develop relationships with the skaters through interactions during test sessions and local competitions (yes even international judges will still do a considerable amount of local judging which makes up the majority of their judging). Skaters and coaches come and ask you for feedback or you will be involved in skater monitoring sessions. And I know if I judge at Nationals or interstate, the skaters appreciate having a judge they know on the panel, not because they think you are going to be favourable towards them but there is a familiar face there which puts them at ease.

I don't know what you want to see, but you obviously have no idea about the reality of how the sport runs at a grass roots and basic level.

 

[Vagabond]

Why is it even called 6.0. All that matters is the ordinals. Of course, the marks are supposed to reflect the ordinal but more often than not they did not.

Not so. Under the earlier iterations of 6.0, the scores were meant to reflect the actual performance and Factored Placements and/or Total Points were used to determine results, with the result that a skater who was vastly superior in the Compulsories and competitive but not quite the best in the Free Skating (and, eventually, the Short Program) could do better than under the later 6.0 system. This is how Beatrix Schuba won her OGM even though she finished seventh in the Free Skating in Sapporo.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Not so. Under the earlier iterations of 6.0, the scores were meant to reflect the actual performance and Factored Placements and/or Total Points were used to determine results, with the result that a skater who was vastly superior in the Compulsories and competitive but not quite the best in the Free Skating (and, eventually, the Short Program) could do better than under the later 6.0 system. This is how Beatrix Schuba won her OGM even though she finished seventh in the Free Skating in Sapporo.

I forgot to clarify the last twenty years (especially the last decade) of 6.0. The marks absolutely did not matter.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

Skating is a very small community in the scheme of things. Everyone knows everyone else.

Having said that, as a judge (not an international one but certainly senior in my country), you develop relationships with the skaters through interactions during test sessions and local competitions (yes even international judges will still do a considerable amount of local judging which makes up the majority of their judging). Skaters and coaches come and ask you for feedback or you will be involved in skater monitoring sessions. And I know if I judge at Nationals or interstate, the skaters appreciate having a judge they know on the panel, not because they think you are going to be favourable towards them but there is a familiar face there which puts them at ease.

I don't know what you want to see, but you obviously have no idea about the reality of how the sport runs at a grass roots and basic level.

Figure skating is an international sport. Sometimes that win or lose results in a conflict like Tonya Harding, and sometimes like Sotnikova and South Korea, it also affects the emotions of the people. If figure skating wants to stay in a small community, it should be excluded from Olympic Games. If it can not fair judgment, it should be excluded from Olympic Games.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Figure skating is an international sport. Sometimes that win or lose results in a conflict like Tonya Harding, and sometimes like Sotnikova and South Korea, it also affects the emotions of the people. If figure skating wants to stay in a small community, it should be excluded from Olympic Games. If it can not fair judgment, it should be excluded from Olympic Games.

It is an international sport. But compared to many other sports, it is a small sport. And the community is a small one compared to other sports. Particularly at grass roots level which is what I am talking about.

You obviously do not understand how the sport operates nor choose to listen to those involved in it to actually listen and learn so you might get a better understanding of the day to day workings. Nor do you ask questions about practicalities and detail so that you might get out of your prejudiced mindset.

But that is your choice. Continue to espouse an argument that demonstrates you really have no clue. And time to put you on the ignore list. Bye!!!

 

[sleepingsleeping]

It is an international sport. But compared to many other sports, it is a small sport. And the community is a small one compared to other sports. Particularly at grass roots level which is what I am talking about.

You obviously do not understand how the sport operates nor choose to listen to those involved in it to actually listen and learn so you might get a better understanding of the day to day workings. Nor do you ask questions about practicalities and detail so that you might get out of your prejudiced mindset.

But that is your choice. Continue to espouse an argument that demonstrates you really have no clue. And time to put you on the ignore list. Bye!!!

Olympic Games, World Figure Skating Championships, GPS, etc. Such level judges and technical specialists are several people in each country. For example, Ms. Weiguang CHEN was a judge of nearly all competition of JIN Boyang in the 2017-2018 season. It is possible for such a few people not to take pictures with those competitors or to stop commenting on SNS. It is also possible to replace other judges by challenging in the case of interests. That is why Ms. Weiguang CHEN was excluded this time.ISU can hold a competition even if she is excluded. For a small number of judges it is easy to request neutral attitudes and behaviors while in a judge. It is easy to eliminate judges who can not take such attitude. It is also possible to manage them directly without the mission of the federation.

 

[Meoima]

I am here just to laugh. We are talking to a wall. How about ignore the certain wall?

 

[sleepingsleeping]

The problem of national bias, ISU also says it is a problem. But they will not act to solve it. You will soon understand. What will happen when expanding the range of GOE?

 

[sleepingsleeping]

2018　Olympic Games

BV = SP ＋ FS
162.59 = 47.48 ＋ 115.11 ： CHEN Nathan
161.84 = 51.25 ＋ 110.59 ： ZHOU Vincent
153.85 = 50.71 ＋ 103.14 ： UNO Shoma 　 SILVER
153.55 = 51.15 ＋ 102.40 ： JIN Boyang
141.57 = 49.01 ＋ 92.56 ： HANYU Yuzuru 　　GOLD 21 points from the top
134.94 = 50.55 ＋ 84.39 ： ALIEV Dmitri
131.86 = 47.75 ＋ 84.11 ： FERNANDEZ Javier 　 BRONZE
128.71 = 39.25 ＋ 89.46 ： KOLYADA Mikhail
126.03 = 43.79 ＋ 82.24 ： SAMOHIN Daniel
125.26 = 39.65 ＋ 85.61 ： TANAKA Keiji
120.39 = 41.33 ＋ 79.06 ： BYCHENKO Alexei
116.69 = 37.00 ＋ 79.69 ： CHA Junhwan
114.83 = 42.00 ＋ 72.83 ： MESSING Keegan
114.08 = 38.30 ＋ 75.78 ： RIPPON Adam
113.79 = 41.86 ＋ 71.93 ： KVITELASHVILI Morisi
112.78 = 40.29 ＋ 72.49 ： CHAN Patrick
112.12 = 42.45 ＋ 69.67 ： KERRY Brendan
110.40 = 38.44 ＋ 71.96 ： HENDRICKX Jorik
109.67 = 38.63 ＋ 71.04 ： BREZINA Michal
109.54 = 35.43 ＋ 74.11 ： RIZZO Matteo
108.38 = 35.63 ＋ 72.75 ： VASILJEVS Deniss
104.56 = 36.83 ＋ 67.73 ： GE Misha
100.18 = 36.00 ＋ 64.18 ： FENTZ Paul
94.02 = 40.03 ＋ 53.99 ： YAN Han

It is the first time that a competitor with a low BV ranking, a degree of difficulty far from the top won, since 2006 when the new judgment system began. I think it is necessary to discuss whether competitors with low difficulty are suitable for winners.

2006 Olympic Games

BV = SP ＋ FS
115.00 = 40.90 ＋ 74.10 ： PLUSHENKO Evgeni GOLD
112.60 = 37.80 ＋ 74.80 ： BUTTLE Jeffrey BRONZE
112.00 = 35.90 ＋ 76.10 ： LAMBIEL Stephane SILVER
107.20 = 34.70 ＋ 72.50 ： LI Chengjiang
106.60 = 34.00 ＋ 72.60 ： LYSACEK Evan
102.60 = 38.30 ＋ 64.30 ： JOUBERT Brian
101.30 = 34.10 ＋ 67.20 ： ZHANG Min
101.00 = 34.20 ＋ 66.80 ： VAN DER PERREN Kevin
100.00 = 34.00 ＋ 66.00 ： DAMBIER Frederic
99.00 = 37.10 ＋ 61.90 ： DAVYDOV Sergei

2010Olympic Games

BV = SP ＋ FS
120.90 = 39.80 ＋ 81.10 ： KOZUKA Takahiko
119.13 = 44.10 ＋ 75.03 ： PLUSHENKO Evgeni SILVER
114.93 = 40.00 ＋ 74.93 ： LYSACEK Evan GOLD 6 points from the top
113.73 = 39.80 ＋ 73.93 ： ODA Nobunari
113.60 = 38.90 ＋ 74.70 ： CHAN Patrick
112.51 = 39.30 ＋ 73.21 ： WEIR Johnny
112.11 = 36.20 ＋ 75.91 ： LAMBIEL Stephane
110.68 = 40.40 ＋ 70.28 ： TAKAHASHI Daisuke BRONZE
109.68 = 38.90 ＋ 70.78 ： BORODULIN Artem
109.61 = 39.30 ＋ 70.31 ： SCHULTHEISS Adrian
2014Olympic Games
BV = SP ＋ FS
127.43 = 43.96 ＋ 83.47 ： HANYU Yuzuru GOLD
122.28 = 42.70 ＋ 79.58 ： CHAN Patrick SILVER
120.52 = 39.10 ＋ 81.42 ： REYNOLDS Kevin
120.26 = 39.66 ＋ 80.60 ： TEN Denis BRONZE
119.63 = 35.61 ＋ 84.02 ： MACHIDA Tatsuki
117.07 = 41.60 ＋ 75.47 ： LIEBERS Peter
114.12 = 42.41 ＋ 71.71 ： YAN Han
113.74 = 41.21 ＋ 72.53 ： VERNER Tomas
110.77 = 38.80 ＋ 71.97 ： BREZINA Michal
110.49 = 42.81 ＋ 67.68 ： FERNANDEZ Javier

 

[gkelly]

"Low difficulty" is relative.

Even compared only to the rest of this field, all the medalists were on the higher end of the base value range. Compared to the senior men's field at large, even higher. So it's not accurate to say any of them had "low" difficulty -- their base values were high, but not the very highest in the event.

Figure skating is a qualitative sport. Quality counts as well as difficulty. Which is why the Technical Elements Score includes not only base value but also grade of execution.

That is true in other judged sports as well, although the terminology may be different.

Some of the positive GOE bullet points in fact represent forms of added difficulty that are easier to capture as individual judges' assessment of each element's execution in the moment than to write into the scale of values. So even a skater with lower base values but higher GOEs may be executing a more difficult program in a more global understanding of the word "difficult."

Much of the technical content and technical difficulty of skating programs occurs between the elements and in the ways that elements are linked together rather than purely in the elements themselves. This is especially true of the "one-foot skating" and "multi-directional skating" criteria of the Skating Skills component, the "Difficulty" and to some extent the "Variety" criterion under Transitions, and also "pattern/ice coverage" and "Multidimensional use of space" criteria under Composition.

One could argue that all the rest of the PCS criteria are about quality and/or artistry irrespective of difficulty, but there is also an argument to be made that it is more difficult to execute the same moves with better quality, in time with the music, etc.

Even with the more conservative understanding of difficulty as reflected in program components, I think it is fair to say that generally the skaters who earn higher PCS are executing more difficult programs, base values aside.

All that being the case, I think it is entirely appropriate for skaters who have the highest combination of element difficulty, between-element difficulty, and quality (plus artistry) to score higher than skaters whose advantage is in base value alone.

If winners were determined by base value alone, it would be a completely different sport.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

It was the first time since 2006 that the competitor who was separated by more than 12 points in Olympic Games and World Figure Skating Championships became the winner. Even LYSACEK and BUTTLE are not apart from the top so much. In men's field, I wonder if people want a battle not to challenge.

It is the same also in the field of ladies. In the battle between Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding, Tonya Harding had 3A. Michelle Kwan also had high difficulty 3-3 as then. There has been no technical progress for thirty years since Midori Ito jumped 3A in 1989. It is natural for people to get bored without stimulation.

 

[Meoima]

It was the first time since 2006 that the competitor who was separated by more than 12 points in Olympic Games and World Figure Skating Championships became the winner. Even LYSACEK and BUTTLE are not apart from the top so much. In men's field, I wonder if people want a battle not to challenge.

Oh I did not know the other guys with highest BV at the Olympics did not fall in either SP or LP. Oh so they did not fall and did not make mistakes, their placements were so wrong because someone who did not fall and did not pop win.

 

[SamuraiK]

Oh I did not know the other guys with highest BV at the Olympics did not fall in either SP or LP. Oh so they did not fall and did not make mistakes, their placements were so wrong because someone who did not fall and did not pop win.

I thought you already got tired of talking to the wall..

 

[gkelly]

It is natural for people to get bored without stimulation.

Personally I find complex skating, preferably with some difficult jumps, to be more stimulating than difficult jumps with not much in between.

YMMV.

 

[Willin]

@gkelly TBH that's exactly how I feel. At Nationals I could hear Jason's edges or see Ross's speed through difficult transitions. It didn't matter to me that they weren't doing too many quads. In person I can't even tell what a quad is vs. a triple because the rotation is too fast and far away, so complex skating that I can see is what makes the difference.

If I wanted to watch people skate back and forth trying to do difficult jumps while ignoring other aspects of skating I'd just go to a freestyle session. Well, even that would be more entertaining because they'd have to be dodging other skaters while trying to gain enough speed and find room to do the jump.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

Personally I find complex skating, preferably with some difficult jumps, to be more stimulating than difficult jumps with not much in between.

YMMV.

I like Jason but I think he should not win Olympic Games. Also, I think that fighting methods like him, Lysacek and battle will create stagnation and boredom in figure skating. Indeed, the ladies' field is in that state.

Previously the competitors were jumping jumps after a long run. Current top competitors, every competitor is performing a much more complex program than the competitors of 20 years ago. But I do not think that it led to the popularity of figure skating.

Also, I think there are aspects that complicated programs also sacrifice speed, which is the attraction of figure skating. For example, I felt Zagitova's FS program sacrificed speed.

 

[Meoima]

I thought you already got tired of talking to the wall..

Still like throwing out some funny comments