U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[Anita18]

@feraina Based on a recent Ivy League alumni event I attended, I'd say there's a ton of reasons why it would be stupid for Nathan to go to an Ivy League for pre-med. But I don't exactly think that's something many people know or would believe.

All he has to do is go to an accredited university and complete the prereq classes for med schools along with some research experience while maintaining a good GPA. He could go to UC Irvine, Riverside, CSU Northridge, Cal State Long Beach (right near his training ice), etc. for all the med schools care. As long as that GPA's great, you meet the prereqs, and you have research experience.

I'd say it's pretty common knowledge by now among East Asian tiger parents that this is indeed the case. My mom has a "friend" (read: the only other Chinese person in the neighborhood so they became defacto friends ) in CA's Central Valley who had her then-HS son's future all planned out. UC Merced for pre-med because "it wouldn't be that hard to get A's" then UC Merced for medical school. Again, because it wouldn't be that hard to get good grades. The friend made this plan about 5 years ago, but said son is not getting with the program, since he's getting B's at UC Merced already.

If Nathan chose Yale, I think there are other reasons he did other than "he really wants to be a doctor" because yes, there are easier ways of reaching that ultimate goal. Maybe he really liked the vibe? Maybe he wanted to go to a smaller campus? Maybe he wants a backup if he decides pre-med is not for him?

I decided mere months into my college career that pre-med was not for me. But my alma mater was strong enough that even though I graduated with a general biology degree with a so-so GPA, it still had clout showing up on my resume.

 

[mackiecat]

Jeffery Buttle studied engineering at U of Toronto while training in Barrie. He would skate in the morning and commute (which is an awful commute) to downtown Toronto for courses. On days when he had a heavier course load, he would train at a Toronto rink. He, however couldn't keep it up and stopped to train more.

 

[misskarne]

You mean Dec *2017*?

Time travel is one of Max's lesser known skills.

Most state universities have transfer agreements in place with their state's network of community colleges, so if Max went to community college in CO, it was probably pretty easy to transfer credits when he enrolled at the university. So if he did 1 year at cc, that means only 3 years full-time at the 4-year. Or maybe he did the full 2 years at cc and then took 3 years to complete the final 2, given the travel he did (GPs, 4CC, Worlds in 2016) in that time?

While it hasn't been identified how long he spent at CC, there was an article last year where it was specified that he was taking a full course load, and had been doing so for a while, so we can assume that he did at least two years, if not all three, at full-time load.

 

[Dobre]

The terms "stupid" and "going to Yale" do not belong in the same sentence. JMHO.

Congratulations to Nathan! And may he discover how he wants to use the next four years his own way and on his own terms. I don't think any of us know what attending college will be like until we experience it.

 

[berthesghost]

The terms "stupid" and "going to Yale" do not belong in the same sentence. JMHO.

Congratulations to Nathan! And may he discover how he wants to use the next four years his own way and on his own terms. I don't think any of us know what attending college will be like until we experience it.

Lucky you!
I was once at the beach with a group of friends when one, a recent graduate from Yale, asked “how do you know it’s high tide or low tide? Is it always at the same time everyday?” So yeah, you don’t know what it’s like until you’ve experienced saying something like “although he went to Yale, everyone was shocked by how stupid the question was”.

 

[VGThuy]

I didn't think that question was that stupid. Everybody has moments where they ask questions that others think are extremely obvious questions with extremely obvious answers because not everybody is exposed to what others are exposed to in life. One issue that I have that irks me and I try to be more careful about is mispronouncing words that somebody at my educational level should pronounce correctly because I've only seen those words in books or in other reading material and have never heard it said out loud in person. That leads me to get corrected by others at times.

I think education doesn't always mean somebody is "smart" or "better" but one who receives a degree at a higher education institution SHOULD develop skills to develop their ability to critically think and specialize in whatever field it is they studied. I also don't subscribe to the idea that those in Ivy Leagues are always smarter or better than others. However, I do think those schools DO have the best resources and professors around and being surrounded by others who got into a highly selective school with stringent requirements, and being in an institution that highly stresses academics above all us does foster a much better environment for institutional learning than a university that is struggling for state funding. However, one's education really depends on how driven they are in doing the work and learning no matter where they are and there are brilliant people at all sorts of universities and there are those who one thinks can be quite... at Ivy Leagues. I have worked with a few...but then I'm sure I have my moments as well.

 

[berthesghost]

^exactly

 

[Willin]

I'd say it's pretty common knowledge by now among East Asian tiger parents that this is indeed the case. My mom has a "friend" (read: the only other Chinese person in the neighborhood so they became defacto friends ) in CA's Central Valley who had her then-HS son's future all planned out. UC Merced for pre-med because "it wouldn't be that hard to get A's" then UC Merced for medical school. Again, because it wouldn't be that hard to get good grades. The friend made this plan about 5 years ago, but said son is not getting with the program, since he's getting B's at UC Merced already.

If Nathan chose Yale, I think there are other reasons he did other than "he really wants to be a doctor" because yes, there are easier ways of reaching that ultimate goal. Maybe he really liked the vibe? Maybe he wanted to go to a smaller campus? Maybe he wants a backup if he decides pre-med is not for him?

I decided mere months into my college career that pre-med was not for me. But my alma mater was strong enough that even though I graduated with a general biology degree with a so-so GPA, it still had clout showing up on my resume.

I didn't think that question was that stupid. Everybody has moments where they ask questions that others think are extremely obvious questions with extremely obvious answers because not everybody is exposed to what others are exposed to in life. One issue that I have that irks me and I try to be more careful about is mispronouncing words that somebody at my educational level should pronounce correctly because I've only seen those words in books or in other reading material and have never heard it said out loud in person. That leads me to get corrected by others at times.

I think education doesn't always mean somebody is "smart" or "better" but one who receives a degree at a higher education institution SHOULD develop skills to develop their ability to critically think and specialize in whatever field it is they studied. I also don't subscribe to the idea that those in Ivy Leagues are always smarter or better than others. However, I do think those schools DO have the best resources and professors around and being surrounded by others who got into a highly selective school with stringent requirements, and being in an institution that highly stresses academics above all us does foster a much better environment for institutional learning than a university that is struggling for state funding. However, one's education really depends on how driven they are in doing the work and learning no matter where they are and there are brilliant people at all sorts of universities and there are those who one thinks can be quite... at Ivy Leagues. I have worked with a few...but then I'm sure I have my moments as well.

Basically, why I'd question going to an Ivy League for pre-med (other than it being easier to get good grades and all the necessities to get in elsewhere) is the competitiveness and lack of support. The woman I was talking to at this Alumni event was the director of student services at one of the schools, so she helps students find ways to succeed.

She said that students, particularly pre-med, are incredibly stressed out, so much so that they can't enjoy college. Ivy Leagues also suffer the same problem that many research universities have in science classes: the professors are there to research, not to teach, so they can't teach and certainly can't teach down or design a test to an undergraduate level. Even with tutoring, it can be excessively hard to get a A.

There's also the overly competitive atmosphere. All these kids (except those that got in by the virtue of legacies or their parents donating tons of money to the school - which is a not insignificant portion of students for most Ivy Leagues - and even they have to have some measure of intelligence) were at the top of their classes. Now you put them all in one room and the pressure cooker heats right on up and nastiness happens.

The other thing is this: med schools are looking at social skills on admission now. That was a theme I heard back in my last few years in undergrad (I was a social science major that took human bio classes, so I had med schools sending e-mails trying to get me to apply; there's also a growing trend in med schools waiving the MCAT for social science majors) and when talking to people during my application process. The woman at the event said this was an issue with many of the pre-med majors she saw at her school: because of the pressure cooker in both research and classes, few pre-med students have social skills, making it harder to get in when application interviews come along.

Now, I don't know if Nathan will have these issues - certainly skating has prepared him for a pressure cooker, and Ashley and Adam probably forced him to get some basic social skills if he didn't have them already, but it still doesn't sound like a healthy environment if he plans to keep skating while studying. If he wants to go to Yale, more power to him, but if he wants to keep competing he should reconsider.

 

[sk9tingfan]

Phil Hersh just tweeted that there will be an article on IceNetwork about Nathan's intention to keep on competing with a lot of the details needed to be figured out

 

[attyfan]

I wonder if his doctors have told him something that he is keeping private. If Nathan will have physical difficulty getting to the next Olys, he might want to leave while he is ahead.

 

[CassAgain]

My son's roommate at their little liberal arts college in our corner of Podunk, USA, is pre-med and on the not very competitive swim team. Last semester taking 3 lab sciences and a softer science class (human sexuality) almost did him in. I hope Nathan has some good advice about how to plan his schedule so he can manage it all and not make himself sick.

 

[el henry]

Phil Hersh just tweeted that there will be an article on IceNetwork about Nathan's intention to keep on competing with a lot of the details needed to be figured out

Although I am no fan of Phil Hersh, as he is in looooooove with Nathan, I will trust him to provide the details. Very, very very interesting.

Best of luck to Nathan if he does decide to go to Yale and compete. I may not be his biggest fan either, but I have great respect for a decision that appears to place academics first.

 

[Wyliefan]

Nathan's very young and very talented and probably at that point in his life where he thinks he can do everything. If he can't, he'll find out soon enough and figure out what to concentrate on right now and what to put off for a while. Selfishly, I'd love to see him concentrate on skating for a few more years and then go to school, but of course that brings its own issues with it. We'll just have to wait and see how it goes.

 

[ilovepaydays]

My son's roommate at their little liberal arts college in our corner of Podunk, USA, is pre-med and on the not very competitive swim team. Last semester taking 3 lab sciences and a softer science class (human sexuality) almost did him in. I hope Nathan has some good advice about how to plan his schedule so he can manage it all and not make himself sick.

My college was NCAA Division II and the swim team did two workouts - early morning and afternoon that were two hours long each. I can’t imagine what they were for top Division I schools (Texas, Cal-Berkeley, Florida, Stanford, etc.).

All the best for Nathan - although he can’t really know what the workload will take until he starts. Those first couple of semesters can be such an adjustment for most people.

 

[Anita18]

Basically, why I'd question going to an Ivy League for pre-med (other than it being easier to get good grades and all the necessities to get in elsewhere) is the competitiveness and lack of support. The woman I was talking to at this Alumni event was the director of student services at one of the schools, so she helps students find ways to succeed.

She said that students, particularly pre-med, are incredibly stressed out, so much so that they can't enjoy college. Ivy Leagues also suffer the same problem that many research universities have in science classes: the professors are there to research, not to teach, so they can't teach and certainly can't teach down or design a test to an undergraduate level. Even with tutoring, it can be excessively hard to get a A.

There's also the overly competitive atmosphere. All these kids (except those that got in by the virtue of legacies or their parents donating tons of money to the school - which is a not insignificant portion of students for most Ivy Leagues - and even they have to have some measure of intelligence) were at the top of their classes. Now you put them all in one room and the pressure cooker heats right on up and nastiness happens.

The other thing is this: med schools are looking at social skills on admission now. That was a theme I heard back in my last few years in undergrad (I was a social science major that took human bio classes, so I had med schools sending e-mails trying to get me to apply; there's also a growing trend in med schools waiving the MCAT for social science majors) and when talking to people during my application process. The woman at the event said this was an issue with many of the pre-med majors she saw at her school: because of the pressure cooker in both research and classes, few pre-med students have social skills, making it harder to get in when application interviews come along.

Now, I don't know if Nathan will have these issues - certainly skating has prepared him for a pressure cooker, and Ashley and Adam probably forced him to get some basic social skills if he didn't have them already, but it still doesn't sound like a healthy environment if he plans to keep skating while studying. If he wants to go to Yale, more power to him, but if he wants to keep competing he should reconsider.

I went to a super-supportive elite liberal arts college, but the imposter syndrome that you mentioned is no joke. It's like you said - we were all at the top of our classes and now we feel that everybody else is smarter than us. : My intellectual self-esteem took a huge hit in college, and it took years until I got it back.

At least Nathan will have "Olympian, National & World Champ" on his resume so hopefully he'll have that to recall when the going gets tough. Back then, all I thought I had was drawing skills. And I didn't even like to draw that much.

In terms of social skills, I think Nathan would actually have pretty good social skills compared to some of the STEM uber-nerds. He knows how to navigate an interview with Andrea Joyce - he'll be fine. Whereas my cousin (who failed the part of the residency test on social skills) would have just called her a moron to her face.

 

[Debbie S]

Ivy Leagues also suffer the same problem that many research universities have in science classes: the professors are there to research, not to teach, so they can't teach and certainly can't teach down or design a test to an undergraduate level.

This is a problem with large state universities too. Depends on the school, the professor (and whether the class is really being taught by a grad student, which doesn't usually happen at Ivies but not unheard of) and how much weight the faculty evaluation process gives to teaching. That was one of the reasons why I decided to attend a small liberal arts college rather than an Ivy, although since I've graduated I've often questioned my decision, for other reasons.

The other thing is this: med schools are looking at social skills on admission now. That was a theme I heard back in my last few years in undergrad (I was a social science major that took human bio classes, so I had med schools sending e-mails trying to get me to apply; there's also a growing trend in med schools waiving the MCAT for social science majors) and when talking to people during my application process.

Wow. Are med schools hurting for applicants? I assume they are still requiring the same set of science/math courses during undergrad?

I'm sure Nathan will seek out and receive plenty of advice from advisors and upperclass students at Yale on planning his schedule, as do all freshmen. Usually pre-meds are advised to take 2 science courses max the first semester and to use the rest of their schedule to explore other disciplines (and fulfill distribution/gen ed requirements). And let's keep in mind that many college students change their intended major once they start taking classes, and many students who were initially pre-med decide that path isn't for them. Nathan has lots of opportunities at Yale and no matter what, he'll receive a great education, which will make the experience worth it, IMO.

 

[Willin]

@Debbie S It's not because they're hurting for applicants - it's because they're hurting for applicants with diverse backgrounds and social skills.
Yes, they do still require you to take the listed prerequisite classes and get a good grade (usually some mix of anatomy, physiology, chemistry, microbiology, biochemistry, organic chemistry, physics, etc.). I think the problem is that those courses are all lumped into certain majors (human biology, biochemistry, etc.) so all the pre-med students opt to take those majors. For my social science major, we had to take a certain amount of "hard science" credits, so I just went along with human biology classes to fill those credits.

Yeah, the trend of researchers as teachers is happening everywhere except community colleges - which is why I think pre-med/nursing students are better off at community colleges for foundational science courses. From what I heard about the Ivy League school in question, one of the big problems is that the competitive atmosphere discourages use of services that students at less competitive state schools may be more willing to use to help academically.

 

[feraina]

@Debbie S
Yeah, the trend of researchers as teachers is happening everywhere except community colleges - which is why I think pre-med/nursing students are better off at community colleges for foundational science courses. From what I heard about the Ivy League school in question, one of the big problems is that the competitive atmosphere discourages use of services that students at less competitive state schools may be more willing to use to help academically.

That is not a recent trend. Teacher-scholars have been the foundation of western universities since they were first established. Liberal arts colleges and community colleges are (relatively recent) exceptions.

I’m a professor at a major research university, and I don’t think on average our teaching quality is worse than community colleges — in fact, based on our transfer students from community colleges, getting all A’s from there is no guarantee they’ll do well in our classes, and getting a sprinkling of B’s is a warning sign that they’ll struggle once they transfer.

Small liberal arts colleges do a much better job of educating their kids (they are also more selective to begin with), but the trouble is that they have small course offerings and almost nothing in the more cutting edge, interdisciplinary areas like machine learning and bioengineering (bioengineering is something Nathan said he might want to study).

A recent trend at major research universities is that many are starting a separate teaching professor track, who are mainly evaluated on their teaching rather than research accomplishments, especially at the top state universities like in California, Texas, and Michigan, which are mandated by the state to take ever increasing numbers of students (and these schools are becoming more popular among families because of high tuition at private schools). This is due to a confluence of factors: increased enrollment, decreased state funding, and the ever greater difficulty for research faculty to obtain federal funding (fewer can be supported, and those who are have to spend ever more time on funding proposals to keep research going).

But this is still very new. So it remains to be seen how having a separate teaching faculty track affects the quality of education and campus finances.

 

[Willin]

@feraina I think it's the worst in sciences - the classes Nathan will presumably be taking. In Social Sciences and liberal arts I found that the professors were much better. But certainly when I took science classes at a community college to fill in some prereq gaps the teaching quality was far superior because the professors were evaluated on their teaching ability as opposed to their research ability.

 

[Debbie S]

IN article on Nathan: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/03/270628238

 

[Willin]

So it sounds like he's waiting for more information before making anything definite.

It would be interesting to see if he was capable of doing things at a distance. With video capability it's more possible than even ten years ago, but I'd still say it's risky.

 

[Anita18]

Small liberal arts colleges do a much better job of educating their kids (they are also more selective to begin with), but the trouble is that they have small course offerings and almost nothing in the more cutting edge, interdisciplinary areas like machine learning and bioengineering (bioengineering is something Nathan said he might want to study).

I went to a small liberal arts college. Our grads go everywhere, and that's because the school has a reputation for admitting and teaching smart people. Smart folks can learn anything they put their minds to. Cutting edge stuff is also changing all the time, so by the time it trickles down to a school curriculum, it's already outdated to a certain degree.

What I do now for work has nothing to do with my major. They didn't have anything related to it when I went there, but I managed to make it work anyway.

But if someone knows for sure what they want to study or do in college, going to the school with the best program is the right move, whatever the school might be.

So it sounds like he's waiting for more information before making anything definite.

It would be interesting to see if he was capable of doing things at a distance. With video capability it's more possible than even ten years ago, but I'd still say it's risky.

I think it's good he's taking some time to consider it. Maybe he was just excited to be admitted to Yale.

 

[Sylvia]

Interesting excerpt from the non-Yale part of Hersh's article:

There was one significant difference in his approach to worlds: Chen had no family with him. In interviews with Russian media, Arutunian expressed frustration about how involved Chen's mother, Hetty Wang, had been in the skater's Olympic program jump choices, especially the changes he made the individual short program.
After the free skate, Chen said he had bounced the idea of trying six quads off his mother the day before but did not tell the coach his plans until soon before he skated.
"We have a good relationship right now, especially after worlds," Arutunian said. "He said to me, 'Let's just the two of us go to worlds.'''
Chen said he had heard about what Arutunian said in the Russian interviews but had not read them and was "not really" upset about them.
"We all played our roles as best we could, but we didn't have the experience of knowing what it would be like," Chen said.
"My mom is huge in terms of planning and organizing the programs, and organizing my competition, at least for the Olympics. [If I didn't have] her at the Games and have her help with stuff, I don't think I would have been able to skate the long program I did.
"I wouldn't try to say anything is her fault. I did what I did; I'm the one to take the blame.
"I know where he (Arutunian) stands on that. He has my mom's best interests at heart, as well as mine. We sort of talked about this before worlds and found a great solution. It obviously worked, but competition to competition, it's different, so we have to re-evaluate."

ICYMI, Nathan's Yale acceptance and the ramifications of starting college this fall also are being discussed in this GSD thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...o-try-while-attending-yale-university.103782/

 

[skatesindreams]

IN article on Nathan: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/03/270628238

Let's wait and see what Yale/Nathan/Raf arrange before deciding that what he hopes to do can't be done; or "second guessing" him.

 

[VGThuy]

Nathan handled that line of questioning with incredible maturity.

 

[A.H.Black]

I'm glad Nathan talked to Paul Wylie about his experience at Harvard.

For what it's worth - I remember reading that Dick Button was going to go to Yale originally, but then found out they wouldn't be very flexible about his skating. Harvard came along and offered to help him work his education and skating around each other. He went to Harvard. I certainly hope Yale is more willing to help Nathan accomplish his goals than they were with Dick 70 years ago.

After Dick Button went to Harvard, there were many other skaters who went there as well - Paul Wylie, John Misha Petkevich, Christina Gao, Emily Hughes, among others. It has sort of been a tradition that Harvard has been the friend to figure skating and figure skaters.

Dick was away from Gus Lussi (his coach) most of the time he was at school. It was during his college years that he landed the first triple jump (a loop). It's not the same situation that Nathan is in at all. However, Dick did compete at a time when they took the boat to Worlds and International competitions so he was away for long periods of time. He also skated at a time when figures took a whole lot of practice time. If I recall correctly, he graduated Magna Cum Laude and pretty much on time - sandwiched in between 2 Olympic Gold Medals and around 5 World Championships.

 

[lurkz2]

Interesting excerpt from the non-Yale part of Hersh's article:


ICYMI, Nathan's Yale acceptance and the ramifications of starting college this fall also are being discussed in this GSD thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...o-try-while-attending-yale-university.103782/

Thanks for posting this. For some reason these sections have now been edited out of the IN article, so it was my only opportunity to read these.

 

[nimi]

Vincent has a new show program and it's "Take on me" (original version! yay!) and it's choreographed by Josh (JOSH! YAY!!!!)

JOSH ALERT!!!! He choreographed a show program for Vincent! There's a pic!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhMgi8MFIlW/

 

[Vagabond]

However, there's plenty of universities which could provide him with a flexible study option which could fit in around skating (most skaters do study) so there must be some particular reason he wants to go to Yale.

Quality of education, perhaps.

 

[dinakt]

Vincent has a new show program and it's "Take on me" (original version! yay!) and it's choreographed by Josh (JOSH! YAY!!!!)

This is wonderful to hear. I can't wait to see it.
Go Josh, go Vincent.