U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[clairecloutier]

I'm a little surprised at Nathan choosing Yale. I thought Harvard or Stanford were more likely bets, just because they would have been more convenient for training purposes. Interested to hear what his plans are.

 

[Sk8yDad]

Except that designing a “future beyond skating” is not synonymous with going off to university right after high school. That is one of many options and is not inherently better or worse than others. I am a university graduate and believe an university education is important both as a means of becoming a better educated person as well as a great assistance in the job market either through direct training (professionals programs like medical school, architecture, etc) or by raising the promotional ceiling.

Whether a skater decides to go directly to university following high school graduation, or decides to take a few courses at a community college, or decides to take a year or two off from school and see where their skating career goes, it is a personal decision. Again, none of those options, no matter what the skater’s level, is better or worse. Nathan Chen’s decision to attend Yale has no bearing on what other skaters should or shouldn’t do. Furthermore, at 18, I would hope that it is the skater evaluating their career, their hopes and dreams, and their future. It is certainly not the parents’ job to be doing that.

Who pays for the skating?
Who pays for college?

 

[Jayar]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years. If one takes 15 credits, that means that -- in theory, they could have a class on M-W-F at 8, 9, and 10, and then two classes on T-Th at 8 and 9:30. They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...

 

[overedge]

Who pays for the skating?
Who pays for college?

Sometimes it's the skater themselves. Sometimes it's the parents, or the family. As @mag says, though, whoever pays should be doing so with the skater's best interests in mind, not their own.

 

[Bellanca]

Who pays for the skating?
Who pays for college?

Having a boatload of sponsors and endorsements will help the cause.

 

[Willin]

@Sk8yDad Well, I would assume he now has plenty of sponsors to help pay for skating along with some good USFSA money, show money, and competition prize money. As for college, I always got the impression that his family wasn't one of the families who makes sacrifices for him to skate, so I would assume they can pay - if Yale hasn't already given him some scholarship money.

 

[Debbie S]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years.

It depends on the school. Universities with strong sports programs and scholarship athletes often offer extra resources, such as tutoring, to help its team athletes balance sports and academics. And as I noted upthread, some schools are more generous with allowing athletes to take a reduced courseload than others. Yale does not have scholarship athletes. Even though they have sports teams, academics are prioritized over athletics (and Yale in particular is very academic-focused, I believe they require 36 credits (1 class=1credit) to graduate, more than other Ivies). Students are expected to complete their degree within 4 years. At most top private colleges/universities, any exceptions usually require some sort of committee review. (And on a general note, typically students receiving financial aid face an additional review process to extend their aid beyond 4 years.)

 

[LarrySK8]

Ryan has to comment way too much on the landing of every single jump of every single skater. Its tiresome. And Im fairly certain 90% of viewing audience has no idea what "landing outside of the circle" means which he says on 50% of jumps. Other comments like "tight landing," "free leg came down," and "landing forward" I think most people can understand... but he has to comment on every jump landing all the time.

AND AND AND AND he has to say, "trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriple" before every routine jump in these programs - which is always a triple.

He talks too much and too quickly. So does the other newbie we heard recently.

 

[RoseRed]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years. If one takes 15 credits, that means that -- in theory, they could have a class on M-W-F at 8, 9, and 10, and then two classes on T-Th at 8 and 9:30. They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...

A big part of the problem is, where do you train? If there is a high level rink near the school that's one thing. If there isn't, well people have been saying that the best options for Nathan (which don't have super high level coaches) are at least an hour from Yale. All of a sudden training takes a lot more time, due to the commute. And can he even find a good enough coach close enough?

Also depending on the program and the flexibility of the school (and it sounds like Yale isn't the most flexible school), missing time for competitions can be a big problem. In a biology program, you may have a lot of lab hours, which are typically mandatory to attend (at least in my experience). At my school, even if you get academic accommodation, you often can't miss more than one or two to get credit for the course. So you might have problems going to a lot of competitions. Some classes also have mandatory attendance that affects the course mark, or even if you can get the credit. You may be able to get accommodation for this, but again, there would likely be a limit as to how many classes you could miss. I don't know about Yale, but I have a couple courses like that as apart of my program which is biology-related.

As well, if he wants to go to medical school, studying for the MCAT can be very time consuming, and people generally try to get additional lab / research experience outside of classes (either in the summer or during the year), which would be additional time.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

I think Yale will be tough also because it is on the other side of the country from where he is now located. Maybe he has more plans for education than skating. He has had a lot of injuries so maybe it makes sense to get a year of college under his belt and heal up and then see where it goes.

That Yale is on the other side of the country may be a major reason why he's choosing to go there--a lot of kids make that choice in order to put some distance between themselves and their "parental units." Smart boy.

Regarding skating, I think there are two major categories of skaters: those who LOVE and live to skate and those who do it because it just happens to be something that they're very good at. I suspect Nathan falls into the latter category and that it's probably not his true passion in life. And if it's not, he needs to be very careful that he doesn't sacrifice too much for it.

 

[VGThuy]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years. If one takes 15 credits, that means that -- in theory, they could have a class on M-W-F at 8, 9, and 10, and then two classes on T-Th at 8 and 9:30. They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...

As somebody who worked full-time once I got back into going to college full-time until my senior year of college while going to college, it's hard and you can be really exhausted to fully excel. Often times classes one needs to take won't be on a M-W-F schedule in the morning. They can stagger based on availability. Also, as much as I joke about how much easier college was than law school, when I actually remember how busy I was with the course load in college, it actually was a lot. It's not just going to class and studying a bit a night and the weekend, often times, you have very involved tasks, research, labs, papers, projects, etc. on top of studying for quizzes, tests, mid-terms, final exams, etc. In law school, we're not allowed to work more than I think 20 hours a week unless you were a part-time student because they know you're supposed to spend all that outside classroom time reading the material and studying, working on legal research and writing assignments, and truly getting it before every class and unlike college, we didn't have quizzes, tests, or mid-terms...just a final exam at the end that our entire grade is based on...of course you better be prepared before every class because the Socratic Method is going to get you.

Also, collegiate sports are made with an academic schedule in mind and are worked around it and the training bases are on campus. NCAA also has strict rules about how many hours an athlete can spend practicing and training unlike elite figure skating where skaters say they train about 7-8 hours a day on average (including on-ice and off-ice training) for 5-6 consecutive days. Some universities will be willing to work with elite athletes and form some sort of part-time schedule and we know skaters have been able to juggle both. However, Yale doesn't seem to be the type of institution that would work around an elite level athlete's schedule.

As much as we find Nathan amazing, Yale has tons of amazing people that they expect to graduate within 4 years taking the full-course load. Plus, Nathan is competing in the Mens event where he's trying to do 5-6 quads a long program and 2 quads in a SP in order to stay on top. It's a much more time-consuming and physically-intensive type of training than collegiate sports. That and trying to do a full-course load at Yale (especially if one is going the pre-med route) is really difficult and will be exhausting that many people can't see how he can exceed in both if tries to do both full-time.

You used gymnastics as an example, as much as I make fun of the lack of depth internationally-speaking, the level of skills elite gymnasts do across 4 (women) and 6 (mens) apparatuses for the most part far exceeds that of a college gymnast. That's why some elite gymnasts cannot do all events on the elite level and must specialize on 2-3.

 

[attyfan]

post deleted as requested information found elsewhere

 

[alexikeguchi]

I attended Yale 1984-88 as a Chemistry major and completed pre-med requirements, which seems to be the academic path that Nathan intends to pursue. While Yale is actually pretty flexible about accommodating time off for activities such as independent study abroad, acting in a movie, or fulfilling the LDS mission requirement, attendance in science lab classes is absolutely mandatory and on average would require several hours twice a week. As a consequence, there were not even many varsity athletes who majored in any type of science; I can't imagine how Nathan would be able to train several hours every day if he has to travel at least an hour either way as well. Ingalls Rink (aka The Whale) is in heavy use for ice hockey and would not be suitable or available for serious figure skaters.

I'm stoked that Nathan appears to have chosen my alma mater from among the many excellent schools to which he was almost certainly accepted, but I agree it likely means that he will not maintain a full competitive schedule throughout the next four years.

 

[carriecmu0503]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years. If one takes 15 credits, that means that -- in theory, they could have a class on M-W-F at 8, 9, and 10, and then two classes on T-Th at 8 and 9:30. They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...

There is a world of difference between college level sport and elite sport. College athletes are limited by the NCAA to 20 hours a week of training. An elite figure skater needs about twice that much time to train. College athletes are not traveling the world to compete, as elite athletes do many times a year. You cannot in any way compare an elite athlete to a college athlete. Even in gymnastics, college gymnastics is almost always a vastly watered down version of elite gymnastics. That’s why elite gymnasts “retire” to college gymnastics. 40 hours of training becomes 20, and the skill required is much less as a result.

A full time college load of 15 credits requires about 25 out-of-class hours of study time at a minimum. That is already a minimum of 40 hours a week towards school. Add 40 hours a week of training a sport at an elite level, and you have a minimum 80 hours a week job, before adding in time to travel to competitions in foreign countries plus nationals. This is simply not doable for many people, which is why you rarely (ever)? see any elite skaters attending school in-person full time for more than a year. It just is not sustainable.

 

[berthesghost]

[QUOTE="Jayar, post: 5343972, member: 474”] They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...[/QUOTE]so you want him to go to class all morning, train all afternoon, then study all evening like some kind of overworked dad with 3 jobs? I’m one of those people who’s life was changed by college. Yes, all the book learning, but also it’s where I learned to socialize and be exposed to new and different people and learn how to take care of myself, do my own laundry, make sure I eat before I drink etc. I would hate for any kid of mine to miss out on all that college has to offer because he is (imo, stupidly) trying to pursue two full time endeavors at the same time. “Hello early burn out, meet my friend Nathan. 19 and already an ulcer. “

 

[wouldacoulda]

There are several rinks within a reasonable distance from Yale, if he chooses to continue. I hope he does, as I'd enjoy watching him on a session!

 

[wickedwitch]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years. If one takes 15 credits, that means that -- in theory, they could have a class on M-W-F at 8, 9, and 10, and then two classes on T-Th at 8 and 9:30. They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...

Science labs are in the afternoon/evening at everyplace I've been. And Yale's a small enough school that he may not have much choice as to what time the class he needs to take is at.

It may be doable if he weren't traveling much.

 

[Bellanca]

I may be silly, but I just don't understand why it's so hard to balance the two. I was very good friends with a Division I student athlete throughout college, and she managed just fine. I also have a cousin who was a D1 gymnast who had to train all year with her team and graduated in 5 years. If one takes 15 credits, that means that -- in theory, they could have a class on M-W-F at 8, 9, and 10, and then two classes on T-Th at 8 and 9:30. They could be done before noon, train until 5, then have several hours to study (plus weekends). Someone here is going to tell me all of the reasons why this doesn't work, but I honestly think that it doesn't work because the athlete starts living the college life on top of the training and studying.Just my two cents...

Don't sweat it @Jayar, athletes, elite or not, have done what you've mentioned in your post very successfully in the past, as you’ve already stated, and more will continue to do so in the future. If anyone can juggle and meet the demands of school and sport – it’s Nathan, if that’s what he decides to do.

 

[misskarne]

But he did study in Colorado Spring, where his training centre was located. Not that what he did wasn't very impressive, because it was, but it's not the same as Nathan and Yale. It's my understanding that there aren't any top coaches right near Yale, so balancing school with training would be harder there than in Colorado Springs.

Well, of course, but that wasn't my point. I was replying to a poster who said that "even super extra skaters like Hanyu" only took online classes, which my brain translated as "even super crazy skaters" only took online classes.

When I get a sec this evening, I'll find that brilliant article from just after Nationals about study and elite athletes. It was a really great one.

EDIT: nvm I found it now: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...ign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180113

The article came out just after Nationals but was obviously written before.

i'm not crying again I'M NOT THE NINJAS ARE CUTTING ONIONS IT'S FINE I AM OKAY WITH THIS I JUST NEED SOME TIME.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Don't sweat it @Jayar, athletes, elite or not, have done what you've mentioned in your post very successfully in the past, as you’ve already stated, and more will continue to do so in the future. If anyone can juggle and meet the demands of school and sport – it’s Nathan, if that’s what he decides to do.

Did these skaters in the past have to do 2 quads in the short and 5-6 in the long? Did they have challenger series, JO, GP, GPF on top of nationals and worlds and the WTT? You can not compare yesteryear to today, especially not for the men. The athletes of yesteryear also did not have the sponsorship demands today’s top athletes have.

 

[starrynight]

To me it sounds like Nathan has or will be making some big decisions. Yale doesn't sound like the place you go to (or can go to) in order to half focus on a degree. He'd choose somewhere else if that was his intention.

Usually men have better longevity in skating. I'm sure the US Fed would wet itself if their top hope left the sport before he really even began. But what can they do.

On the flip side, I don't think anyone would be surprised if one of Eteri's girls were making a break for university at the age of 18.

 

[Bellanca]

yesteryear

Yesteryear? We're not talking about the 1800's here... I'm sure Nathan can successfully manage a schedule if he wants to continue competing.

 

[berthesghost]

Yesteryear? We're not talking about the 1800's here... I'm sure Nathan can successfully manage a schedule if he wants to continue competing.

so... you’re not going to tell us when you were talking about?

 

[VGThuy]

The only American skater I can think of who was able to continue competing at an elite level while attending university within the past 20 years and graduating within the typical 4 year period is Matt Savoie. He's been by far the exception, not the rule. During that time, he went to Worlds once, during his senior year. He also took three years to get his Masters rather than the typical two years, and he wisely deferred one year of law school to prepare for the Olympic season as there is no way he could have done both. If Chen really is going for a science degree and going for pre-Med, unlike Savoie, then it's seriously hard for me to see him being able to do both with all the requirements. The first year may be possible depending on the curriculum, but as the work becomes more intense and time-consuming, it will be hard to see him not taking a year off with permission from the institution.

I know others have tried to do it in a four year period, but almost all ended up choosing skating or college full-time.

ETA: Max Aaron did his in three years when he graduated in Dec. 2018. Did Max start at a university late? I know he was in community college for a bit after graduating high school in 2010.

 

[mag]

On the flip side, I don't think anyone would be surprised if one of Eteri's girls were making a break for university at the age of 18.

The documentary I watched about Med said that she only attended school on Monday, her day off from the rink. The teacher made the comment that she did what she could, but didn’t really see Med enough. Of course, she might be allowed into University, but she clearly is not even studying at a high school level right now.

 

[Lilia A]

If he's indeed doing pre-med, then his schedule will be packed assuming he takes on a full time load. While usually only labs are mandatory attendance classes, you technically still have the extra 3-4 hours of lecture per week. The problem with part time loads in science programs is that there are a lot of corequisites as you move along in the program, and some upper level courses can have multiple prerequisites. So, skipping or dropping (or worse, failing) a class can set you back an entire year depending on how important it is.
Oh, and labs can happen at anytime during the day. They do tend to happen very early in the morning or can end late in the afternoon. The reason is that chem labs can last 3 to 4 hours. I don't know about bio labs because I didn't take any bio classes after first year. Physics labs tend to be shorter at first. Also, in upper level courses, class sizes tend to be smaller. So it's not uncommon for only one lab session per week to be offered. You either make it work with your schedule, or you don't take the class at all. I'm sure some universities offer evening labs or additional lab sessions to full time students, but not all do.

Whatever path Nathan takes, I hope he chooses what he really wants and not what other people want.

 

[Debbie S]

ETA: Max Aaron did his in three years when he graduated in Dec. 2018. Did Max start at a university late? I know he was in community college for a bit after graduating high school in 2010.

You mean Dec *2017*?

Most state universities have transfer agreements in place with their state's network of community colleges, so if Max went to community college in CO, it was probably pretty easy to transfer credits when he enrolled at the university. So if he did 1 year at cc, that means only 3 years full-time at the 4-year. Or maybe he did the full 2 years at cc and then took 3 years to complete the final 2, given the travel he did (GPs, 4CC, Worlds in 2016) in that time?

At my college, labs were in the afternoon and took 3 to 3 1/2 hours, but every school is different. We haven't heard from Nathan directly, so we have no idea what he intends to major in or if he still wants to do pre-med. But he could do pre-med without majoring in a science field - as long as someone completes the reqs for med school (usually 1 year each of bio and physics and 2 years of chem), they can major in whatever subject they want. And it is also possible to wait until after undergrad to complete the reqs - I remember there were several schools that offered a "post-bacc" intensive 1-year program where students (usually who hadn't decided to pursue med school until late in their college careers) could complete the required science courses. There are many paths Nathan could choose to make college work for him.

 

[feraina]

Research shows that the value of an ivy league education is not only in the classes you take/degrees you earn, but also in the social network you build. At a typical university, your post-college earnings is strongly tied to your degree. But after attending an ivy league school, even someone who graduated with a low-earning degree (eg humanities or social sciences) can get a lucrative career in an unrelated field going through their social connections.

It would be stupid of Nathan to go to a school like Yale if he’s not going to have time to socialize or network — he might as well just go to UCLA then, where he can pay in-state tuition and get a pretty good education. He might be able to juggle coursework and skating, if he’s very focused/organized, but he’s not going to be able to have much of a social life in addition to that.

 

[Willin]

@feraina Based on a recent Ivy League alumni event I attended, I'd say there's a ton of reasons why it would be stupid for Nathan to go to an Ivy League for pre-med. But I don't exactly think that's something many people know or would believe.

All he has to do is go to an accredited university and complete the prereq classes for med schools along with some research experience while maintaining a good GPA. He could go to UC Irvine, Riverside, CSU Northridge, Cal State Long Beach (right near his training ice), etc. for all the med schools care. As long as that GPA's great, you meet the prereqs, and you have research experience.

 

[MRani]

@feraina Based on a recent Ivy League alumni event I attended, I'd say there's a ton of reasons why it would be stupid for Nathan to go to an Ivy League for pre-med. But I don't exactly think that's something many people know or would believe.

All he has to do is go to an accredited university and complete the prereq classes for med schools along with some research experience while maintaining a good GPA. He could go to UC Irvine, Riverside, CSU Northridge, Cal State Long Beach (right near his training ice), etc. for all the med schools care. As long as that GPA's great, you meet the prereqs, and you have research experience.

This is totally true. It’s a misconception that you need to go to a big name school for premed. Your GPA and MCAT scores will be judged equally no matter where you go to get them, and straight As from a state school will look better on your application than Bs and Cs from a school like Yale. Going to an Ivy League could only be useful if you want to make connections with faculty who are involved in that school’s MD program, but even that’s far from a guarantee. I know people who went to an Ivy for undergrad and still got rejected/waitlisted from their school’s MD program anyway.

I’m sure Nathan has other great reasons for going to Yale, and I’m really proud of him for getting in and committing to his education in such a big way. As someone who went through the pre-med track at a private liberal arts college not that long ago, I really can’t imagine how it would be possible to do that while also being an elite athlete. No matter how talented or academically gifted you are, I just don’t think there are enough hours in the day to do both at the highest level simultaneously.