Virtue, Moir hope revamped programs will lift them to Olympic gold

[dramagrrl]

at the post above regarding "propaganda" for V&M. The short documentary was aired on CBC close to the Olympics because a) there is always a lag between filming a program and when it actually airs on television, and b) CBC obviously wants to promote the Olympics for the sake of ratings, since they are the ones who will be broadcasting the Games in Canada. It is to their best interest to save all Olympic-related programming to as close to the actual Games as possible to get viewers hyped about watching the actual competitions, thereby increasing ratings for CBC.

As for the "ridiculous"/"hilarious" scores at Canadian Nationals, what would @maglia say about the scoring at U.S. Nationals in comparison? Hawayek/Baker scored 114.43 for a fourth-place FD at U.S. Nationals; in comparison, their winning FD at 4CC a few weeks later scored 105.21. Chock/Bates' all-time best international score in a FD is 113.31 and their FD at U.S. Nationals scored 118.99. Hubbell/Donohue also have an international PB FD of around 113 and scored over 118 at U.S. Nat'ls. Scoring at national championships, especially pre-Olympics, is always inflated. Saying that V&M's scores at Canadians were "Canadian propaganda" is completely ignoring this fact to make it seem like it was something out of the ordinary done just for them.

 

[Anyasnake]

When a V/M fan start saying something, it's V/M propaganda. When a P/C fan does, it's P/C propaganda. Repeat.

Meh. Everyone is going to criticize everyone. If any of you care a little bit : P/C, the rising 2014-2015 team is competiting in its first Olympic next week. V/M, already legends in the sport with a more than successful comeback, have only 4 performances left. I can go on and on about other teams too.

But yes, bite each other as much as you want I guess.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yeah, it's just better to admit brilliance when you see it, and to show respect where it's warranted for all skaters, and accept that you understand your emotions are captured more fully by some skaters than by others, and that's okay. Quite often these days, fans love a whole slew of skaters who compete against each other, so in that case stomachs get tied up in knots, and we can't choose between the beautiful and variant flowers and colors that equally touch our hearts and souls. I hope everyone skates well. I'd love to see Canada win gold in the team comp, and P/C win gold in the individual. But I'm going to calm down any expectations for any discipline. And I'm so weary of the Russian ladies hype. And Satoko is a beautiful gem, but her jumps are weak. Granted she's courageous and she looks like a magical hummingbird rotating so quickly (pre-rotations and all), as she hovers just over the ice.

The movie is nice, very well designed and mastered. Some parts are really interesting especially when Samuel Chouinard explains how some sequences were first created and then step by step modified.

Now, no one is fooled. Releasing such video 15 days prior the individual competitions seems a little fishy! I would have preferred to see a movie like this one released much earlier. Talking about the program, the choreography, the music choice, etc is perfectly fine by me. Now when a coach talks about "perfect score", I really wonder... Was she very well inspired to make this kind of comments, especially next to Olys? In the end, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. Several sequences really look like outrageous propaganda. The most ridiculous thing is Leanna Caron appearing here and there. She pretends to be judge in int'l competitions while being head of the Canadian fed! What a shame! The ISU should seriously change some rules.

The Canadian fed is obviously ready to to promote V/M at any cost. It's not new, they already did it last year but it seems they are ready to spend even more money this season. After the hearings, massive propaganda on social networks, ridiculous (not say hilarious) scores at Canadian Nat'l (widely promoted), it sounds like it's now time for a movie... What else should we expect by Feb. 19th?

^^ Well yes, it's definitely a promotional vid to pump up more enthusiasm and respect for their fp choice. I think it's honest how V/M feel in touch with the Roxanne music and the story, as they were eager to come back in order to explore further growth and to go beyond the box of being thought of as 'lyrical' ice dancers. It's obviously a political push as well for V/M to present themselves as the ones to beat and not the other way around. And that's fine.

I'm not able to understand all the French, so I couldn't get the details of what M-F, Patch, and the other French speakers were saying. Dave Lease certainly bought into this whole presentation as he was gushing on TSL about the Montreal team and their strategy for V/M. If it's being done for V/M, it's being done for all the Montreal skaters, and so what we see overall is more of a comment on how Dubreuil/Lauzon and Haguenauer have joined forces to slay in the world of ice dance. Not 'slay' in an aggressive, violent sense, but in an incredibly powerful, uplifting and 'pushing the boundaries' sense. M-F and Patch have spoken before about the vision they had for building a rink/a camp/an aesthetic/a winning training strategy, and they have done so.

Haguenauer who knew D/L when they trained in France also had the unique vision and capacity to understand how European and North American aesthetics and approaches could be combined to create something new, fresh and exciting. P/C (with their remarkable gifts) were the perfect team to mold and to nurture under this fortuitous collaboration. With P/C's talent and the Montreal team behind them, P/C immediately vaulted to the top of the ice dance world. V/M had been mentored by D/L coming up as youngsters, and then after Sochi, V/M planned to work with D/L for shows until their thoughts turned to coming back for another Olympics. No doubt the way P/C took ice dance by storm under M-F/ Lauzon/ Haguenauer cemented V/M's thoughts of coming back for that competitive rush they missed and growth exploration they craved.

 

[allezfred]

The movie is nice, very well designed and mastered. Some parts are really interesting especially when Samuel Chouinard explains how some sequences were first created and then step by step modified.

Now, no one is fooled. Releasing such video 15 days prior the individual competitions seems a little fishy! I would have preferred to see a movie like this one released much earlier. Talking about the program, the choreography, the music choice, etc is perfectly fine by me. Now when a coach talks about "perfect score", I really wonder... Was she very well inspired to make this kind of comments, especially next to Olys? In the end, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. Several sequences really look like outrageous propaganda. The most ridiculous thing is Leanna Caron appearing here and there. She pretends to be judge in int'l competitions while being head of the Canadian fed! What a shame! The ISU should seriously change some rules.

The Canadian fed is obviously ready to to promote V/M at any cost. It's not new, they already did it last year but it seems they are ready to spend even more money this season. After the hearings, massive propaganda on social networks, ridiculous (not say hilarious) scores at Canadian Nat'l (widely promoted), it sounds like it's now time for a movie... What else should we expect by Feb. 19th?

I don't think there is anything strange about a TV station hyping athletes from its own country prior to the Olympics. They want viewers to tune in!

And of course the Canadian federation is going to promote Virtue/Moir. Just like the French federation will promote Papadakis/Cizeron.

Honestly, let's leave the conspiracy theories to the tinfoil hat brigade and may the best (out of the two technically excellent teams - and let no-one tell you otherwise!) win.

 

[Twilight1]

The movie is nice, very well designed and mastered. Some parts are really interesting especially when Samuel Chouinard explains how some sequences were first created and then step by step modified.

Now, no one is fooled. Releasing such video 15 days prior the individual competitions seems a little fishy! I would have preferred to see a movie like this one released much earlier. Talking about the program, the choreography, the music choice, etc is perfectly fine by me. Now, was it worth and well inspired to talk about "perfect score"? Not sure... especially next to Olys... One can even wonder whether there was a Grand-Prix season, and a GPF! In the end, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. Several sequences really look like outrageous propaganda. The most ridiculous thing is Leanna Caron appearing here and there. She pretends to be judge in int'l competitions while being head of the Canadian fed! What a shame! The ISU should seriously change some rules.

The Canadian fed is obviously ready to promote V/M at any cost. It's not new, they already did it last season but it seems they are ready to spend even more money this season. After the hearings, massive propaganda on social networks, ridiculous (not say hilarious) scores at Canadian Nat'l (widely promoted), it's now time for a movie... What else should we expect by Feb. 19th?

You realize that Tessa and Scott had an entire show about them leading into Sochi on Canadian TV right?

The only conspiracy theorist on here right now is you lmfao.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

There really isn't a conspiracy here. CBC are promoting the most recognisable faces of their coverage for ratings. The commissioners at CBC aren't going to have any sway over the tech panel at the Olympics. V/M got exceptional scores at Nationals for exceptional skates to show the world that Skate Canada is behind them (P/C also got very very high scores at their Nationals and they fell. I remember D/W getting silly marks at US Nats before Sochi. It's just what's done)

I can appreciate that for many spectators, what P/C do is magic and transcendant. But while I can sit back and just enjoy it, the judges aren't supposed to judge on transcendance or feeling. They're supposed to analyse and break down the elements that go into that performance. You can personally loathe a piece of choreography and still recognise its intricacy or suitability to the music. Too often I find that individual components aren't being sufficiently scrutinised because of the overall impression of the team or program (this is a more general comment, not about a particular team)

 

[Anyasnake]

They're supposed to analyse and break down the elements that go into that performance. You can personally loathe a piece of choreography and still recognise its intricacy or suitability to the music. Too often I find that individual components aren't being sufficiently scrutinised because of the overall impression of the team or program (this is a more general comment, not about a particular team)

They actually do. They don't sit back or enjoy watching a team like us. They do like at everything : technique, precision, clean turns and of course overall (written in the ISU rulebook of course). They definitely do break break down everything.
But I actually find the judging to be more precise on technical anyway (it is actually often correct).
About loathing music, I think it is for extreme cases (Read : 2010, a certain OD).

 

[Deleted member 74551]

^ ideally yes, but there's been iffy judging in figure skating since forever (reputation bonus, ignoring errors in the GOE, suspect edge/lack of edge calls, odd ss levels, inflated PCS etc) and this season isn't really any different- this goes for a number of teams and singles skaters, not just those at the top. I'm not saying everything is a conspiracy or anything like that, it's just that sometimes narratives drive scores rather than the other way round.

 

[sap5]

They actually do. They don't sit back or enjoy watching a team like us. They do like at everything : technique, precision, clean turns and of course overall (written in the ISU rulebook of course). They definitely do break break down everything.
But I actually find the judging to be more precise on technical anyway (it is actually often correct).

Because so few actually believe that, this board will be a tire fire no matter who wins.

 

[maglia]

You realize that Tessa and Scott had an entire show about them leading into Sochi on Canadian TV right?

The only conspiracy theorist on here right now is you lmfao.

Propaganda is a form of promotion that frees itself with all or part of the reality. This is what I was referring to. No need to make so much fuss. Anyhow, CBC wanted to tell a story with this movie. Why not?

You talk about conspiracy, not me. Conspiracy is something totally different and I can't even get how this movie could be related to any conspiracy.

 

[Twilight1]

Maglia- you are making a fuss about marks at a National championship, a fuss about a Canadian team on Canadian TV, reprting you are "uncomfortable" at the propoganda and the promotion at any cost and are now attempting to backtrack on conspiracy. lol

 

[sap5]

NBC has shot a similar piece for PC that will air during the Olympics.

 

[maglia]

Maglia- you are making a fuss about marks at a National championship,

Marks are always fun at Nat'l championships but they were definitely hilarious for V/M at Canadian championships. The way these marks were used afterwards for a huge "promotion" on social media to make comparisons with P/C was just as hilarious as the marks themselves.

 

[maglia]

and are now attempting to backtrack on conspiracy. lol

Sorry but these last words are yours not mine. No need to extrapolate to talk about conspiracy.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Again, if you want hilarious, Papadakis/Cizeron got 202 at French Nationals with a fall in the short. If V/M were French and had skated their Can Nats programs at those nationals, they would've got the same mad scores because there was basically nothing wrong with their skates. It's Nationals! It's a dire sign of trouble if there isn't major inflation!

Nobody who follows skating on more than a four year basis took those scores seriously as a point of comparison with P/C. It's more that people were looking at the content of the programs with fresh eyes due to the major changes.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Marks are always fun at Nat'l championships but they were definitely hilarious for V/M at Canadian championships. The way these marks were used afterwards for a huge "promotion" on social media to make comparisons with P/C was just as hilarious as the marks themselves.

You really feel threaned, aren’t you? You sure know nobody cares about any marks at any nationals. You seem like the only who takes it literally and spill venom contantly about it.

I wish both teams to skate their hearts off and may the best that day win.

 

[Asli]

The scores of a country's number one skaters are always inflated at national championships and everyone knows this. What's the point of even checking the scores at national championships when we have the GP circuit to see how international judges mark the skaters?

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

The scores of a country's number one skaters are always inflated at national championships and everyone knows this. What's the point of even checking the scores at national championships when we have the GP circuit to see how international judges mark the skaters?

ITA, You said it better than I.

 

[maglia]

Nobody who follows skating on more than a four year basis took those scores seriously as a point of comparison with P/C. It's more that people were looking at the content of the programs with fresh eyes due to the major changes.

Not really, there were so many posts comparing the total BV of P/C GPF with V/M Nat'l championships. As for "major changes", I know the story that, since Canadian Nat'l, MR is a completely new program compared to GPF, which is obviously an old event to forget.
All teams introduced changes to their programs, not only V/M. Anyhow they had no choice. Given the GPF results, something had to be done. Once again, all the others made modifications as well. B/S, C/B and many others. P/C improved their NtMiSt, CiSt and MiSt, etc. Coming back to MR changes, some are great, others are not so great imHo but I hardly think most of these changes will have any major impact at Olys. Technical (tiny, small or big) mistakes will be the key.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Except that CBC sent the doc to each of the Olympic Dance judges and tech panel with a case of BC ice wine and a pair of Tessa earrings.

 

[Carolla5501]

You really feel threaned, aren’t you? You sure know nobody cares about any marks at any nationals. You seem like the only who takes it literally and spill venom contantly about it.

I wish both teams to skate their hearts off and may the best that day win.

Which will be followed by bitter screaming and crying on here because "my favorites were robbed" LOL! (At least half the posters in this thread will whine no matter what and even if every fact in the world shows their skater "lost" it won't be the skater's fault)

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I think the Moulin Rouge changes were a bit more significant than cleaning up a transition and making minor adjustments to step sequences- they changed the music and reworked half a program in 3 weeks! I don't think if you showed a casual viewer P/C's Moonlight Sonata from GPF and Euros they'd be able to tell them apart. Moulin Rouge is clearly a different program. I enjoyed their original vision, but I do think this is one case where a major change could make a real difference to the PCS. It's so much more of an obvious 'moment' now, the new crescendo is practically begging for a standing ovation. It might not be enough, but I've got to admire V/M's obstinate refusal to wave the white flag of surrender when the scoring all season has suggested they'll have to settle for silver again.

 

[aftershocks]

Time Out with the back-and-forth that won't solve anything.

Here's a 2015 TedTalk in Toronto by Virtue/Moir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaMaM4orwIA

I just came across these vids of skaters giving TedTalks. That's cool.

Here's one with Meryl Davis from January 2016: The Two Sides of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsY3LWgsaUo

And I posted Sasha Cohen's TedTalk in the 'Sasha marriage' thread in Trash Can.

 

[maglia]

I think the Moulin Rouge changes were a bit more significant than cleaning up a transition and making minor adjustments to step sequences- they changed the music and reworked half a program in 3 weeks! I don't think if you showed a casual viewer P/C'a Moonlight Sonata from GPF and Euros they'd be able to tell them apart. Moulin Rouge is clearly a different program. I enjoyed their original vision, but I do think this is one case where a major change could make a real difference. It's so much more of an obvious 'moment' now, the new crescendo is practically begging for a standing ovation. It might not be enough, but I've got to admire V/M's obstinate refusal to wave the white flag of surrender when the scoring all season has suggested they'll have to settle for silver again.

Well, be aware P/C (and others) did much more than "cleaning up a transition and making minor adjustments in step sequences". BTW, a lot of points in ice dance are given for technical stuff which is almost invisible (or hardly visible) by common people. AFAIK, changing the music doesn't add any points.
"Moulin Rouge is clearly a different program", yeah, I know this story. Let's forget the GP season and moreover GPF. LOL. Of course V/M try to do anything to get the OGM, which is what I expect from them. They are among the great skaters but not the only ones.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Well, be aware P/C (and others) did much more than "cleaning up a transition and making minor adjustments in step sequences". BTW, a lot of points in ice dance are given for technical stuff which is almost invisible (or hardly visible) by common people. AFAIK, changing the music doesn't add any points.
"Moulin Rouge is clearly a different program", yeah, I know this story. Let's forget the GP season and moreover GPF. LOL. Of course V/M try to do anything to get the OGM, which is what I expect from them. They are among the great skaters but not the only ones.

I was an ice dancer for more than a decade, I really don't need to be told that points are awarded for 'invisible technical stuff' (none of it is invisible to me, which is why I have issues with judging), nor did I ever imply that other teams don't have their own merits. I'm not sure anything productive can come from this conversation and i don't want to get further into a tit-for-tat argument, so I'll just say that I hope your favourites have a clean competition and are happy with their performances

 

[lauravvv]

Marks are always fun at Nat'l championships but they were definitely hilarious for V/M at Canadian championships. The way these marks were used afterwards for a huge "promotion" on social media to make comparisons with P/C was just as hilarious as the marks themselves.

Yes, comparing those marks to P/C's is a bit hilarious and shows that those who are doing it (haven't read/heard/seen, to be honest) really have no idea of how these things work in skating, especially in ice dancing.

As for the marks themselves, they are no more hilarious than any other inflated marks at Nationals - V/M got around 6 points more than their international season's best in the FD. 5, 6 points is the standard inflation in almost all Nationals - definitely for all top ice dancing teams. It's just that standard inflation happened to lead to a perfect score in V/M's case which doesn't make the inflation any larger than usual in numbers. Especially considering that it's very likely that they would have gotten a season's best with that FD skate also at an international competition. Not a perfect score, of course, but at least over 119 or even 120, depending on the step sequence levels.

So I think your reaction to those particular marks is definitely over the top.

 

[MsZem]

French Nationals are actually one of the least inflated national championships. Joubert and Amodio would regularly score lower nationally than internationally, and Papadakis and Cizeron got higher scores at Worlds than at Nationals in 2015 and 2016.

V/M's Nationals scores haven't been that far from their international scores, either. The perfect scores this year were a bit much, but ice dance scores are so high these days that even a bit of standard nationals inflation can produce this kind of thing.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I wonder what's going to happen after the Olympics with regards to scoring actually. The PCS are creeping closer and closer to perfect. Presumably it can't continue that way with the components indefinitely. Drastic drop off?

 

[Anyasnake]

I wonder what's going to happen after the Olympics with regards to scoring actually. The PCS are creeping closer and closer to perfect. Presumably it can't continue that way with the components indefinitely. Drastic drop off?

New scoring system. Kind of. Plus and Minus 5 GOEs for starters.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

New scoring system. Kind of. Plus and Minus 5 GOEs for starters.

Seems like a bit of a temporary fix to me. It might work brilliantly, but I can definitely see all the top teams just scoring +5 on everything 8 years down the line and the system having to be adjusted again. It doesn't address the PCS issue either.