I, Tonya

[Yazmeen]

But that was your emphasis from the quote. Maybe she was adamant against admitting prior knowledge because she didn't know anything specific. Frink also says, in that article, that Tonya was very smart and wily in her interviews and interactions with everyone. It stands to reason that she was smart enough to have not known any specifics if any plans that were made in the Eckhardt house. All they had was a piece of paper with the training think info in her handwriting. Any good defense lawyer could easily spin that as she got the info because Jeff asked her to get that info and either lied to her about why he wanted it or she just didn't ask. Either way you slice it, from a legal point of view, there is (or was until that ABC interview earlier this month) a grey area that exists as to how much she knew and when she knew it.

We will have to agree to disagree. I'm aware that there are fans out there who simply cannot accept the concept that she might have been in on this from the beginning. Or that about the only thing that is consistent about her is that she consistently changes her story every time a camera comes near her to something that will hopefully get her more attention and any benefits that might come with that attention.

 

[berthesghost]

He said similar about Tiffany Chin's Death Drop at 1987 Nationals - he loves that move.



Movies "based on actual events," often delete characters that would confuse the general audience. By deleting reference to Midori, the film makers avoided having to explain, "First AMERICAN woman to land a triple axel," from "First woman to EVER land a triple axel," AND AND AND having to explain that Midori's was far better than Tonya's.

Movies based on fictional novels also do this. I recently read GWTW for the first time and there were like a dozen characters that got chacked for the movie. Can’t say I blame them. But the difference is that chacking Honey Wilkes didn’t change the basic narrative. I’m not sure I agree that chacking Midori didn’t. It not only made Tonya seem more special but also limited her obstacles to success as basically just Nancy which is the one thing that never made sense out of any of this. Of all the things standing between Tonya and an OGM, Nancy was just one small hurdle among many.

 

[clairecloutier]

Figure skating writer Maura Sullivan Hill's review of I, Tonya:

https://twizzletalk.wordpress.com/2018/01/28/i-tonya-movie-review/

 

[MacMadame]

whole post

You should like your basic conspiracy theorist and Tonya apologist. And your take on Kerrigan is insulting to her.

USFS would not have banned Harding for life if they thought she would take them to court and win. Therefore, the evidence had to be good enough to withstand that kind of challenge even if it wasn't a slam dunk in a court room.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

So the actual placement at 1989 Nationals were:

Rank Name CF SP FS
1 Jill Trenary
CF: 1 SP: 1 FS: 2
2 Kristi Yamaguchi
CF: 8 SP: 2 FS: 1
3 Tonya Harding
CF: 4 SP: 3 FS: 3

I think it would have been fairer if the placements were:

Rank Name CF SP FS
? Jill Trenary
CF: 1 SP: 1 FS: 3
? Kristi Yamaguchi
CF: 8 SP: 2 FS: 1
? Tonya Harding
CF: 4 SP: 3 FS: 2

Would this have changed the overall results?

I believe that Trenary would have still won, but I don't know about Harding Vs Yamaguchi?

As a fan, I can say that Harding's deep edges and flow with her blades cutting into the ice, spin centering and speed, steps and turns were superior to Yamaguchi but just below Jill's.

Harding's jump content was definitely better than Jill's and on par with Yamaguchi's because Tonya had two 3Lp and better grade of execution than Yamaguchi.

In terms of presentation, Harding was not nearly as pretty as Kristi or Jill.

Why put Trenary 1st in the SP though. She did just a triple toe combo, while both Tonya and Kristi did triple lutz combos.

 

[bardtoob]

Why put Trenary 1st in the SP though. She did just a triple toe combo, while both Tonya and Kristi did triple lutz combos.

Good question ...

You can probably guess my answer from what I wrote above ... ... Who's who's coach ......

Then again, maybe if Diane had helped Tonya not choose the soundtrack to a WWII Bombing Run as the opening to her SP, then maybe Tonya would have scored better ... I wish she had skated to ZZ Top at 1989 Nationals!

 

[Karen-W]

You should like your basic conspiracy theorist and Tonya apologist. And your take on Kerrigan is insulting to her.

USFS would not have banned Harding for life if they thought she would take them to court and win. Therefore, the evidence had to be good enough to withstand that kind of challenge even if it wasn't a slam dunk in a court room.

The USFSA is a private membership organization, so they could ban her for life or whatever and Tonya would have little legal recourse, especially since she did admit to a crime and was on probation. They weren't denying her membership based on race, gender, or religion so they could and did do pretty much whatever they wanted (which is well within their rights).

Up until the ABC interview, I definitely have always thought there was plenty of grey in what she knew, when she knew it, and what she did with that information. It's a different question of whether she was aware something was afoot or how involved she was in whatever was ultimately planned. It isn't as though anyone has ever claimed she was at the planning meetings which occured at the Eckhardt home. My point of view has always been that EVERYONE involved had motivation to finger Tonya, and they were all certainly guilty so why is their word any better than Tonya claiming she wasn't involved in the planning? Have you read their statements? Do their stories and timelines corroborate with each other? I'd love to know those things. Even Frink admits that what they had on Tonya wasn't, while strong enough for an indictment, a slam dunk if it went to trial.

 

[Yazmeen]

From what I recall and I don't have any articles at my fingertips, the statements of the others (at least Jeff and Shawn) were pretty much the same as to Tonya's involvement. They said the same things about her.

 

[Karen-W]

From what I recall and I don't have any articles at my fingertips, the statements of the others (at least Jeff and Shawn) were pretty much the same as to Tonya's involvement. They said the same things about her.

That's fair. To be honest, I haven't really followed a lot of the story or interviews in the intervening decades.

Ultimately, I don't have a problem with the USFSA lifetime ban (same with Pete Rose being banned from baseball). She was, and probably always will be, her own worst enemy and it's a damn shame she couldn't break the cycle of victimization for long enough to rise above and become better than her circumstances.

 

[gkelly]

Why put Trenary 1st in the SP though. She did just a triple toe combo, while both Tonya and Kristi did triple lutz combos.

Well, there were 8 elements in the Original Program (spiral sequence was new that year -- now it's gone again), on which quality counted as well as difficulty, plus the second mark. If enough judges thought Trenary was enough better in enough of those areas, they would have reason to put her ahead.

 

[berthesghost]

Good question ...

You can probably guess my answer from what I wrote above ... ... Who's who's coach ......

Then again, maybe if Diane had helped Tonya not choose the soundtrack to a WWII Bombing Run as the opening to her SP, then maybe Tonya would have scored better ... I wish she had skated to ZZ Top at 1989 Nationals!

While I agree that Carlo was one rotten apple, I don’t agree that he spoiled the whole bunch. Yeah, he seemed to basically be the Edith Head of skating (true talent being at shameless self promotion and the ability to take credit for other people’s work with zero guilt) but even if he turned one judge, that would only need another 4 to genuinely feel Jill was the better overall skater. I honestly think most judges just do their job based on what the actually feel is right.

 

[MacMadame]

The USFSA is a private membership organization, so they could ban her for life or whatever and Tonya would have little legal recourse, especially since she did admit to a crime and was on probation. They weren't denying her membership based on race, gender, or religion so they could and did do pretty much whatever they wanted (which is well within their rights).

That's not how it works in sports. There are avenues for athletes to appeal the decisions of their governing bodies right up to CAS. She could have appealed the suspension and, if it was done on shaky evidence, CAS (or even a lower court) could have taken her side.

But she didn't even threaten to sue. (She did threaten to sue to get on the Olympic team and at that time USFS didn't have the evidence they had later and caved.) Either she didn't understand how seriously it would hurt her career to be banned or she had a good reason not to push it.

 

[Inessence]

That's fair. To be honest, I haven't really followed a lot of the story or interviews in the intervening decades.

Ultimately, I don't have a problem with the USFSA lifetime ban (same with Pete Rose being banned from baseball). She was, and probably always will be, her own worst enemy and it's a damn shame she couldn't break the cycle of victimization for long enough to rise above and become better than her circumstances.

I would love to read the FBI files in their entirety. To my recollection, Eckhardt in interviews basically parroted Gillooly's statements his lawyer made to the media shortly after he turned himself in. Prior to that he'd blamed most the entire thing on Gillooly. He wanted to make sure Jeff didn't get a better deal than he did. Of course, Jeff did so anyway by doing a prison "boot camp" to lessen his time served that the 350lb Shawn could not possibly have undertaken.

 

[bardtoob]

While I agree that Carlo was one rotten apple, I don’t agree that he spoiled the whole bunch. Yeah, he seemed to basically be the Edith Head of skating (true talent being at shameless self promotion and the ability to take credit for other people’s work with zero guilt) but even if he turned one judge, that would only need another 4 to genuinely feel Jill was the better overall skater. I honestly think most judges just do their job based on what the actually feel is right.

I will call this as good an explanation as any, given that first music cut in Tonya's SP.

I think the technical content and grade of execution of Harding was superior to Jill's, but the vehicle for presenting it could have been an Express Train rather than a WWI German Tank.

The pop and rock tracks Tonya used circa 90-92 were superior choices ... As would have Thunderstruck by AC/DC, etc.

 

[Erin]

I would love to read the FBI files in their entirety.

Yeah, I would also love to know what all they had.

The question of Tonya's level of involvement is something I've always struggled with. The thing is, a big part of me really wants to believe her. And while I definitely don't think she is to be trusted, I don't think that Jeff, the only person who can directly connect her to knowing about the attack before it happened, can be trusted either. But the paper with her handwriting on it with Tony Kent arena and practice times is pretty damning evidence. Especially when her story about why she called the arena changes all the time and she keeps denying that the handwriting is hers, which is ridiculous.

So yeah, as much as I want to believe her out of my fandom for her actual skating and write off Jeff as a liar...I can't quite get there.

 

[MacMadame]

So yeah, as much as I want to believe her out of my fandom for her actual skating and write off Jeff as a liar...I can't quite get there.

I think it's possible for Jeff to be a liar and for her to be in on it. Life is complex like that.

 

[Erin]

I think it's possible for Jeff to be a liar and for her to be in on it. Life is complex like that.

Agreed. It would not surprise me that even if she was in on it that Jeff embellished her role.

 

[jenniferlyon]

Yeah, I would also love to know what all they had.

The question of Tonya's level of involvement is something I've always struggled with. The thing is, a big part of me really wants to believe her. And while I definitely don't think she is to be trusted, I don't think that Jeff, the only person who can directly connect her to knowing about the attack before it happened, can be trusted either. But the paper with her handwriting on it with Tony Kent arena and practice times is pretty damning evidence. Especially when her story about why she called the arena changes all the time and she keeps denying that the handwriting is hers, which is ridiculous.

That piece of evidence is pretty damning, but what doesn't make sense about it is:
a) Why didn't they tear up that paper or burn it before they threw it away?
b) Why did they wait so long to get rid of it?
c) Who goes through every scrap of garbage in a restaurant dumpster until they find something like that? We're not talking about a dead body or a gun here. It was a piece of paper buried in trash.

It's weird.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

c) Who goes through every scrap of garbage in a restaurant dumpster until they find something like that? We're not talking about a dead body or a gun here. It was a piece of paper buried in trash.

It's weird.

Don't know the answers to your other questions but the owner of the restaurant was trying to identify people using her garbage bins as their own personal dumping site. I don't know if she had to pay for extra garbage because of it or she was just pissed that people were using her bins.

 

[berthesghost]

Don't know the answers to your other questions but the owner of the restaurant was trying to identify people using her garbage bins as their own personal dumping site. I don't know if she had to pay for extra garbage because of it or she was just pissed that people were using her bins.

Yes. Restraints rent the dumpster and once it gets full they have to call for a pick up that they pay for, so they all get pissed if people throw garbage in their dumpster. This particular owner took it a step further by sorting thru it all and confronting the abusers.

 

[HSCluv]

Yes...what are the odds of the restaurant owner finding that piece of paper? It's like he or they could have literally put it in any other dumpster in Portland and it would have never been found. But they just happen to put it in one where the owner is mad and regularly going through it. Strange.

 

[BaileyCatts]

That piece of evidence is pretty damning, but what doesn't make sense about it is:
a) Why didn't they tear up that paper or burn it before they threw it away?
b) Why did they wait so long to get rid of it?
c) Who goes through every scrap of garbage in a restaurant dumpster until they find something like that? We're not talking about a dead body or a gun here. It was a piece of paper buried in trash.

It's weird.

A) because that would be the logical thing to do, and clearly these people were not logical.

B) my guess .... it was probably just siting around on a table piled full junk, and Tonya forgot all about it. She just happened to stumble across it (well after everyone knew she was involved) and thought 'I better toss this'.

C) what the others said above. People were using that restaurant owners dumpster (that SHE paid the bill for) as their own personal trash bin, probably to avoid paying for their own bill. When she saw bags dumped in it that were not her's (I believe she could tell by the bag that was used), she would go thru it to find some identifying info (magazines, junk mail, etc.). It was something she did whenever she saw bags that were not her's, it was not a 'that was the only time she did it' thing.

 

[bardtoob]

I believe the FBI determined that some of the writing was Tonya's but their was some writing that was a forgery of Tonya's writing.

Tonya was involved, in my mind, but with something that was supposed to happen in Massachusetts, not Michigan.

Whatever it was, Tonya should have called the police as soon as these guys started injecting themselves into her skating world. However, she was probably scared that she would have absolutely nobody after that.

 

[Inessence]

That's not how it works in sports. There are avenues for athletes to appeal the decisions of their governing bodies right up to CAS. She could have appealed the suspension and, if it was done on shaky evidence, CAS (or even a lower court) could have taken her side.

But she didn't even threaten to sue. (She did threaten to sue to get on the Olympic team and at that time USFS didn't have the evidence they had later and caved.) Either she didn't understand how seriously it would hurt her career to be banned or she had a good reason not to push it.

Did she really have a shot though? She plead guilty to a felony Hindering the Prosecution charge after an attack on her teammate. She could try using the “abuse excuse” as to why she didn’t come forward, but why try when she had never been believed in the past?

IIRC the USFSA at the time had a 30-day period to appeal a disciplinary decision. Which I believe would have occurred after the Olympics began. Also, Tonya’s lawyer for the 25 million dollar USOC lawsuit was married to her coach, so he could not represent her against the USFSA due to conflict of interest.

 

[Inessence]

Yes...what are the odds of the restaurant owner finding that piece of paper? It's like he or they could have literally put it in any other dumpster in Portland and it would have never been found. But they just happen to put it in one where the owner is mad and regularly going through it. Strange.

The note was found nearly two seeks after Tonya left the residence she was living with Jeff after her FBI interview. Also, she never denied calling journalist Vera Moreno at Jeff’s behest to get Nancy’s rink info. So I have no idea why she would need to lie about having written the information down. Maybe she doesn’t remember doing it or doesn’t recognize her own handwriting, who knows.

The show “Scandal Made Me Famous” had a handwriting expert say the rink location and telephone number on the envelope was written by Tonya. However, her skating bills listed for Diane, Erika, and Ice Time owed was written by Jeff and totaled $6500. Which was supposedly also the exact same amount Jeff paid out for the hit. I’m still trying to understand the subterfuge there. Were those bills actually paid? Was he hiding the reason for needing the money from Tonya? Was the identical amount just a coincidence?

 

[Aussie Willy]

Totally different - apparently the film is inspiring fashion designers now

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...k=8a31204919afb1845d015a460c8eeaf8-1517288699

 

[Inessence]

Totally different - apparently the film is inspiring fashion designers now

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...k=8a31204919afb1845d015a460c8eeaf8-1517288699

This is priceless.

 

[jenniferlyon]

A) because that would be the logical thing to do, and clearly these people were not logical.

But I am a Vulcan and I expect people to be logical!

B) my guess .... it was probably just siting around on a table piled full junk, and Tonya forgot all about it. She just happened to stumble across it (well after everyone knew she was involved) and thought 'I better toss this'.

Toss it without tearing it, burning it (I mean, come on, we know Tonya would have had a cigarette lighter handy), or smearing it with food or whatever to make it un-readable. I seriously thought she would be smarter than that. Or that Jeff would be smarter than that.

C) what the others said above. People were using that restaurant owners dumpster (that SHE paid the bill for) as their own personal trash bin, probably to avoid paying for their own bill. When she saw bags dumped in it that were not her's (I believe she could tell by the bag that was used), she would go thru it to find some identifying info (magazines, junk mail, etc.). It was something she did whenever she saw bags that were not her's, it was not a 'that was the only time she did it' thing.

OK, so the next time I need to dispose of incriminating evidence I will not use a restaurant dumpster.

 

[bardtoob]

Regarding 1989 Nationals . . . I just realized something about Trenary that I never really appreciated before. Trenary really sparkled when she skated. Jill was very good at being all those things that defined ladies skating when she first started training at a young age.

 

[Inessence]

So then, what’s the consensus on the 89 Nats? Tonya wuzrobbed or nah?