IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[Anyasnake]

The list was in June, and they had not submitted anyone else for ice dancing (top 5 at nationals + Drodz). No Popova on that list then, no Popova added later on.
After Nationals, they only sent a revised list with 3 teams, and Popova WASN'T in that list either.
That means, if both Bukin & Bobrova are being left out of the games, only Zahorski/Guerreiro can go.

If that happens, that will be sad for all involved. And IMO, so unfair.

Why in the world wouldn't they add at least a 2nd alternate ? No sense, whatsoever. No P/M or even Nikita... (well Nikita would have been out probably in that case anyway).

 

[MarieM]

They were confident about Bukin at that time IMO and never thought it was a possibility he would be not invited.

 

[Ka3sha]

Nvm

 

[Anyasnake]

Nvm

Makes sense for the Olympics (at least in the actual context) though.

I think the massive surprise here is Bukin because Z/G were speaking in the press very confidentely, saying they'll be ready, but I'm sure everyone thought about B/S. If there is no explanation for Ivan, it's like a draw of "who won't we send". I mean it could litterally be about paperwork or a missed appointement for a medical test or anything as stupid as that and they forget to notify whoever is in charge of this.

 

[MarieM]

Z&G don't know if they're going or not yet. And they do not seem really happy to go under the circumstances. So far, they're waiting to see if they are going to Japan as the reserve team or not. They'll find out Saturday.
It's added a lot of stress too IMO to all involved there.

Don't the athletes receive a link to their doping tests? If so, in Bukin's place, I would be providing those to the press.

 

[TAHbKA]

Popova/Mozgov's latest update was a hysterical twit by their coach that she was kicked out from the rink. So no, I don't think they are the substitudes nor do I believe they were training the week of the Europeans (at least not in their `home' rink)

 

[morqet]

https://www.championat.com/olympicw...spisok-rossijskih-sportsmenov-na-oi-2018.html

Bobrova/Soloviev may also be out. Source from Russian Olympic Committee, but again, only one source saying it, no official confirmation.

https://www.olympic.org/news/olympi...information-used-as-part-of-its-deliberations

Here is the list of information used by the IOC to make it's decisions.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

The likelihood of Russians boycotting looks higher

 

[Anyasnake]

The likelihood of Russians boycotting looks higher

I hope not. Send Alina and Evgenia and make them national heroes

 

[Areski]

Why in the world wouldn't they add at least a 2nd alternate ? No sense, whatsoever. No P/M or even Nikita... (well Nikita would have been out probably in that case anyway).

Isn't Nikita injured anyway?

 

[Anyasnake]

Isn't Nikita injured anyway?

I think he still is, but if they are looking at Sochi Medallists, he is one of them so he is out of the question. Plus, Victoria did Sochi too. Too messy.

 

[analia]

It's absurd that IOC is accusing Russia of institutional doping when it doesn't publicly state the reasons of banning Stolbova and Bukin. One can easily come to the conclusion that IOC is involved in institutional selective banning. In light of fostering clean sports (cough) the governing bodies should at least hold themselves to the same standard and allow a clean arbitration process instead of sending a letter of decision weeks before the Olympics. Unless Stolbova and Bukin tested positive at Europeans or that random December test (which sure is a possibility), I can not see why either was allowed to compete all these years if they had suspicious test results. Either IOC is saying it has a higher standard than ISU in terms of the "cleanness" of the sport thus indirectly suggesting ISU does not have an adequate standard, or it's abusing its power to extend suspicion into realms previously unclaimed to send a political message of some kind. Only positive test results from recent months would satisfy me personally, because otherwise, if it is so as some rumor suggests that the ban is because Bukin tested positive at Universiade years back and was never officially sanctioned, then ISU is essentially not a legitimate governing body in the eyes of IOC, then as a result, would it also mean that all competition results from the past few years should be nulled?

I understand IOC has given itself the power to randomly not invite any Russian athlete no reason needed, but that is not very different from a national federation having the power to force dope or trick dope an athlete funded by them no objection taken. You can argue in both cases the athlete is a victim, not a perpetrator. The only justifiable cause is that Bukin and Stolbova tested positive or had suspicious behaviors recently. It also seems laughable to me that only medalists in Sochi are suggested to be on the uninvited list. What a doping athlete who can't win a medal is cleaner than one who can? What WADA study or common sense can support that argument? IOC is saying clean Russian athletes can compete in Korea. It should stick with that and take the responsibility to prove the ones uninvited dirty. The way things are they have not striped any medal or changed any result in figure skating from Sochi. All of them are clean until proven guilty.

 

[skatingguy]

https://www.championat.com/olympicw...spisok-rossijskih-sportsmenov-na-oi-2018.html

Bobrova/Soloviev may also be out. Source from Russian Olympic Committee, but again, only one source saying it, no official confirmation.

I'm not sure if it's Google translate or the writing of that article but there are so many qualifiers on those statements it almost renders them meaningless. 'It's possible that maybe there could be an issue with these athletes, but really don't know, so we're just speculating and throwing out names'.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

The likelihood of Russians boycotting looks higher

No, it doesn't.
There's nothing that indicates it in the Russian press.

I'm not sure if it's Google translate or the writing of that article but there are so many qualifiers on those statements in almost renders them meaningless. 'It's possible that maybe there could be an issue with these athletes, but really don't know, so we're just speculating and throwing out names'.

This article is much like Domshabfan's post: while it might be true, it doesn't have any real basis and simply a speculation on this stage. So I would suggest people stop quoting this particular article.

 

[skatingguy]

It's absurd that IOC is accusing Russia of institutional doping when it doesn't publicly state the reasons of banning Stolbova and Bukin.

The IOC hasn't banned Stolbova & Bukin. We don't know for sure that they are not allowed to compete and we won't know for sure until Saturday when the list of invited athletes is released. All we've gotten so far is statements from people in the Russian Olympic Committee saying that they haven't been invited.

One can easily come to the conclusion that IOC is involved in institutional selective banning. In light of fostering clean sports (cough) the governing bodies should at least hold themselves to the same standard and allow a clean arbitration process instead of sending a letter of decision weeks before the Olympics.

I can certainly agree that IOC shouldn't have left the decision up to the last minute. The decision to sanction the Russian Olympic Committee should have been made a year ago and that would have allowed more time for what is happening now.

Unless Stolbova and Bukin tested positive at Europeans or that random December test (which sure is a possibility), I can not see why either was allowed to compete all these years if they had suspicious test results. Either IOC is saying it has a higher standard than ISU in terms of the "cleanness" of the sport thus indirectly suggesting ISU does not have an adequate standard, or it's abusing its power to extend suspicion into realms previously unclaimed to send a political message of some kind. Only positive test results from recent months would satisfy me personally, because otherwise, if it is so as some rumor suggests that the ban is because Bukin tested positive at Universiade years back and was never officially sanctioned, then ISU is essentially not a legitimate governing body in the eyes of IOC, then as a result, would it also mean that all competition results from the past few years should be nulled?

From what I've read, the IOC gave the Russian Olympic Committee a preliminary list last week (Friday?) and reduced the pool of athletes from 500 to 389. It is this list of 111 athletes that apparently includes Stolbova & Bukin along with the other athletes that have been mentioned. If this is true than it can't be because of positive tests from the European Championships this year because that event was still ongoing.

I understand IOC has given itself the power to randomly not invite any Russian athlete no reason needed, but that is not very different from a national federation having the power to force dope or trick dope an athlete funded by them no objection taken. You can argue in both cases the athlete is a victim, not a perpetrator. The only justifiable cause is that Bukin and Stolbova tested positive or had suspicious behaviors recently. It also seems laughable to me that only medalists in Sochi are suggested to be on the uninvited list. What a doping athlete who can't win a medal is cleaner than one who can? What WADA study or common sense can support that argument?

The thing is that all medalists are tested, and I believe anyone with a top 8 finish because the IOC awards certificates to the top 8 finishers, but other athletes who competed are only tested randomly so the likelihood is that a positive test will come from a medalist.

IOC is saying clean Russian athletes can compete in Korea. It should stick with that and take the responsibility to prove the ones uninvited dirty. The way things are they have not striped any medal or changed any result in figure skating from Sochi. All of them are clean until proven guilty.

Just because we don't, or won't know what the issue is doesn't mean that there isn't an issue to begin with. I would hope that the IOC would inform the athletes who are not invited, but that doesn't mean that the information will ever become public because of the privacy of the athlete.

All of them are clean until proven guilty.

I'm not a lawyer or a legal scholar, but this does not seem to apply to competing in high level sport. There are many examples of what seem like procedural issues or accidental use that result in a doping ban.

Athletes have to provide a lot of information to doping control agents. For example, they must provide there whereabouts for a one hour period every week for months in advance so that testers have a window in which to do out of competition testing. If you are not where you said you would be, you could face a doping ban. Alize Cornet, France, is facing a doping violation for such a violation.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...each-of-antidoping-rules-20180124-h0o1l4.html

Athletes can be banned for refusing a test. Viktor Troicki, Serbia, was banned for 18 months for what he says was a misunderstanding regarding a blood test. He thought the tester said he could have the sample taken later, and she says she did not. He lost his ranking and had to start from scratch which in tennis takes the better part of a year.

https://www.si.com/tennis/beyond-baseline/2013/07/26/viktor-troicki-itf-suspension-appeal-doping

Athletes can be banned for accidental ingestion. Sara Errani, Italy, was banned for two months because she handled the medication that her mother was taking breast cancer and believes that the medication contaminated food that she ate.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2017...g-agency-seeks-to-lengthen-erranis-ban/68911/

Athletes can be banned for ingesting a banned substance even if they haven't tested positive. Brad Fritsch, Canada, was banned after ingesting a banned substance in a weight loss supplement. He didn't test positive, he realized his mistake and admitted to the PGA that he had taken the substance.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/golf/brad-fritsch-suspended-pga-canadian-golfer-1.4478354

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

The thing is that all medalists are tested, and I believe anyone with a top 8 finish because the IOC awards certificates to the top 8 finishers, but other athletes who competed are only tested randomly so the likelihood is that a positive test will come from a medalist.

That is only partly correct.
The Russian athletes have been a subject to increased scrutiny in the past couple of years, means they've been tested considerably more often than normal. The list of such athletes has been given by WADA and included lots of sportsmen, including complete outsiders. Anyone in the national team would be there automatically (read: Bukin).

I'm not a lawyer or a legal scholar, but this does not seem to apply to competing in high level sport. There are many examples of what seem like procedural issues or accidental use that result in a doping ban.

Athletes have to provide a lot of information to doping control agents.

I would think that all those fall under reasonable definitions of what is a reason for disqualification. And it is "innocent until proven guilty" more or less.
However, with the Russians this time IOC went much further, not only denying them the presumption of innocence, but denying them the right of defense. And worse yet - this is a special treatment that is being applied only exclusively to Russians.

So, yes, Russia has been involved in a state based doping scheme. But it doesn't justify THIS. Again, either you ban the entire country as a punishment (punishing the wrong people, of course, but who cares), or you stop this nonsense and treat the Russian athletes like any other athlete. IOC is doing something else, and it's appalling. For the records, all the sportsmen who are being denied the entry now by the IOC have been cleaned by WADA (which also hasn't always been the friendly). Since IOC doesn't actually test anyone, but only uses the results provided by WADA, their behavior now is nothing short of picking random people just to show the middle finger.

 

[skatingguy]

That is only partly correct.
The Russian athletes have been a subject to increased scrutiny in the past couple of years, means they've been tested considerably more often than normal. The list of such athletes has been given by WADA and included lots of sportsmen, including complete outsiders. Anyone in the national team would be there automatically (read: Bukin).

Yes, that makes sense. I was thinking in general about positive tests being more likely to come from medalists because they represent a disproportion amount of the athletes tested. Also, medalists at the Olympics are often top athletes with many medals from international events which probably leads them to be tested more often than would be expected of someone who would only be subject to random testing.

I would think that all those fall under reasonable definitions of what is a reason for disqualification. And it is "innocent until proven guilty" more or less.
However, with the Russians this time IOC went much further, not only denying them the presumption of innocence, but denying them the right of defense. And worse yet - this is a special treatment that is being applied only exclusively to Russians.

Yes, that's certainly what it looks like, but I've also been hearing and reading that this arrangement was a deal between the Russian Olympic Committee and the IOC Board of Directors to prevent a full ban or a Russian boycott.

You always have to take what Dick Pound says with a grain of salt, but he's been around IOC for longer than anyone else in the organization:

"And there have been persistent questions from Olympic and anti-doping insiders whether the fine was negotiated in return for allowing Russia to regain its Olympic status at Pyeongchang's closing ceremony.

"Having seen the rumours, having seen what happened, for me it looks like there had to have been a deal," says Pound."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/olympics-doping-russia-pyeongchang-dick-pound-1.4498580

So, yes, Russia has been involved in a state based doping scheme. But it doesn't justify THIS. Again, either you ban the entire country as a punishment (punishing the wrong people, of course, but who cares), or you stop this nonsense and treat the Russian athletes like any other athlete. IOC is doing something else, and it's appalling. For the records, all the sportsmen who are being denied the entry now by the IOC have been cleaned by WADA (which also hasn't always been the friendly). Since IOC doesn't actually test anyone, but only uses the results provided by WADA, their behavior now is nothing short of picking random people just to show the middle finger.

Yes, if given the choice the IOC seems to always make more things more bureaucratic and take steps to distance themselves from the difficult decisions.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Here, IOC lists criteria for athlete evaluation

Also, please note: olympic org in english issues info, then TASS Russian News agency (2nd article) basically reworded it, but note the slight variations in the two sets of info, perhaps due to bi-lingual issue. when reading Russian news, make adjustment for language issues and don't go off on a tangent if something alarms you....

https://www.olympic.org/news/olympi...information-used-as-part-of-its-deliberations
http://tass.com/sport/986868

 

[Tinami Amori]

- Athletes have to provide a lot of information to doping control agents. For example, they must provide there whereabouts for a one hour period every week for months in advance so that testers have a window in which to do out of competition testing. If you are not where you said you would be, you could face a doping ban.
- Athletes can be banned for accidental ingestion.
- Athletes can be banned for ingesting a banned substance even if they haven't tested positive.

Thank this is a good reminder, and the extreme is too much.

I was furious with "authorities" about I/Z (US pair) when she suspended for not opening the door late at night to some random tester who banged on her door after 11 PM.... And then the issue came up "are athletes treated like prisoners" and should WADA control athletes lives to such degree. There is a huge gap between "steroids/performance enhancements" and smoking a joint while athlete is on vacation or taking cold medication.

I think WADA needs to have its tail pinched... (not because of Russians).

 

[skatingguy]

Thank this is a good reminder, and the extreme is too much.

I was furious with I/Z (US pair) when she was suspended for not opening the door late at night to some random tester who banged on her door after 11 PM.... And then the issue came up "are athletes treated like prisoners" and should WADA control athletes lives to such degree. There is a huge gap between "steroids/performance enhancements" and smoking a joint while athlete is on vacation or taking cold medication.

I think WADA needs to have its tail pinched... (not because of Russians).

I think we need to be clear that while WADA sets out standards it doesn't dictate the individual procedures or policies that countries own doping agencies need to follow or those of individual sports either. WADA doesn't implement the testing, the individual doping agencies for each country or sport do. So, for example, athletes registered for athletic competition in Canada are subject to testing by the CCES (Centre for Canadian Ethics in Sport) which would mostly be out of competition tests, and also subject to tests from the sporting body in which they compete, which would primarily be in competition tests.
Centre for Canadian Ethics in Sport
http://cces.ca/

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think we need to be clear that while WADA sets out standards it doesn't dictate the individual procedures or policies that countries own doping agencies need to follow or those of individual sports either. WADA doesn't implement the testing, the individual doping agencies for each country or sport do. So, for example, athletes registered for athletic competition in Canada are subject to testing by the CCES (Centre for Canadian Ethics in Sport) which mostly be out of competition tests, and also subject to tests from the sporting body in which they compete, which would primarily be in competition tests.
Centre for Canadian Ethics in Sport
http://cces.ca/

thanks. explain this if you can, given i understood the info correctly: i heard that an athlete can mess up a sample/test simply by drinking on his day off too much alcohol (which is not a performance helper) or from a recreational drug usage (also while on vacation) which is also not a performance enhancer but the contrary.. WADA's role is to make sure an athlete does not get unfair advantage through chemicals. But why does it bother with alcohol and recreational drugs?

 

[skatingguy]

thanks. explain this if you can, given i understood the info correctly: i heard that an athlete can mess up a sample, simply by too much alcohol (which is not a performance helper) or from a recreational drug usage (while on vacation) which is also not a performance enhancer but on the contrary.. WADA's role is to make sure an athlete does not get unfair advantage through chemicals. But why does it bother with alcohol and recreational drugs?

I think there's a difference between an in competition test and out of competition test for some substances. I've also read articles about alcohol being used a masking agent, so that could be the issue. I will have to read more.

http://www.dailynebraskan.com/sport...cle_208d46e3-8e6f-54b4-a2d5-98aef12ab40e.html

http://theweek.com/speedreads/624054/russian-olympic-athletes-reportedly-mix-steroids-alcohol

 

[Vash01]

Nvm

What does this mean?

 

[barbk]

What does this mean?

Nevermind. (Nvm is an abbreviation, that's all.)

 

[Vash01]

thanks. explain this if you can, given i understood the info correctly: i heard that an athlete can mess up a sample/test simply by drinking on his day off too much alcohol (which is not a performance helper) or from a recreational drug usage (also while on vacation) which is also not a performance enhancer but the contrary.. WADA's role is to make sure an athlete does not get unfair advantage through chemicals. But why does it bother with alcohol and recreational drugs?

If that is the standard, many athletes from many countries could be disqualified. Why is this being used only for athletes from Russia?

I hate the IOC. I wish I could avoid watching the Olympics but I can't.

 

[topaz]

People still go on about Meldonium, it is getting tiring ... it is explained a bizzilion times already ...

LOL, What's been explained a "Bizzilon times already"? That meldonium was just ONE of drugs used in the Russian system for performance enhancement.

The point of my post was to point out that Russian athletes have experimented on decades with performance enhancing drugs across all their entire program.

 

[MarieM]

As if they are the only ones. Let's not be hypocrits. All countries do it. To some extent.

 

[Carolla5501]

If that is the standard, many athletes from many countries could be disqualified. Why is this being used only for athletes from Russia?

I hate the IOC. I wish I could avoid watching the Olympics but I can't.

As has been pointed out thousands of times, the reason the standards are different is because their country engaged in a systematic approach to drug and hide the evidence.

This is NOT the fault of the IOC or any other governing body in sports, it's the fault of the leaders in Russia who decided "the rules don't apply to us" and then decided when caught to "bluff"

 

[BlueRidge]

As has been pointed out thousands of times, the reason the standards are different is because their country engaged in a systematic approach to drug and hide the evidence.

This is NOT the fault of the IOC or any other governing body in sports, it's the fault of the leaders in Russia who decided "the rules don't apply to us" and then decided when caught to "bluff"

It is not the fault of the IOC that Russia as a country is under sanction for these Olympics. But I don't think that absolves the IOC of responsibility for fair and transparent treatment of the athletes involved. We don't really know enough right now to judge, but if when the IOC makes its official announcement they don't seem to be acting in a fair manner to the individual athletes involved, that can't be blamed solely on the Russian doping operation.

 

[Carolla5501]

It is not the fault of the IOC that Russia as a country is under sanction for these Olympics. But I don't think that absolves the IOC of responsibility for fair and transparent treatment of the athletes involved. We don't really know enough right now to judge, but if when the IOC makes its official announcement they don't seem to be acting in a fair manner to the individual athletes involved, that can't be blamed solely on the Russian doping operation.

"fair and transparent" meaning "they tell the fans and we all agree"?

I think that no matter what they do the outcry on here will be "it's not fair" LOL!