IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[Vash01]

I am in LOVE with Bukin (close your ears Poirier). He actually seems like nice good guy. I hope there was no problem and he will be cleared to skate...

Also, who needs this distraction when you're supposed to be training for the next 2 weeks.... uggg,...

I Love his skating. What a shame this is happening!

 

[Willin]

Well, to clarify. I'm not a fan of Russian skaters, I'm a fan of figure skating. Some of the best skaters in the world are Russian, so it's natural that some of my favorites are Russians, but if you're looking to assume that I'm supportive of skaters from a certain country, the better pick would be Spain and Turkey just because

Anyway, it makes no difference, my point is that I would enjoy my posts being read not from a position that I am personally or emotionally involved with this skater or another. Same thing about Rodchenkov. I might form an opinion, and I am not claiming it's the only one possible - but it is not based on who is my favorite skater currently is.

Now, regarding the second paragraph, it's true that this is an internet forum and therefore it's impossible to know who you are talking to and how valid their opinion is. So it's fully up to you to decide whether to trust my posts or not - and I'm totally fine with that. But I still, I would like to post about this matter because I want to.

And I would like to say that if Bukin or Stolbova would have been under suspicion for whatever reason, I would know. I would also like to ask other posters stop looking for the possible doping related reasons to why they have been denied the "invitation" on this point - you might think of reasons, but they are not true. It's a solid fact that as of January 20th neither of them has been suspected in using doping by WADA. Unless something happened in the last 4 days, which I doubt, it's just a fact.

My guess is that in Stolbova's case they indeed used the rumour published in that Italian tabloid, and combined with the fact that she's a double Olympic medalist in Sochi of all places, they decided to deny her. As for Bukin I don't have the slightest clue, there hasn't been anything questionable in his past. Either way, the fact is that as of now, the IOC denies two clean skaters the right to participate at the Olympics with no reasonable base, just because they can. So my desire to punch in the face the Swedish OC for denying Majorov the ticket is now extended to the IOC. They obviously lost the grip of the reality and decided that the Olympics are their personal playground rather than the event for the athletes.

I'm sorry I assumed, and thank you for clarifying. There are many fans in many places who are calling Rodchenkov unreliable and crazy, calling this a conspiracy against Russia, and denying this whole thing ever happened - not only on this forum, but on social media and other forums. I suppose seeing so many of those individuals using similar language - who often criticize the IOC directly - made me think wrongly.

Personally, I don't think either doped - it's pretty obvious that doping wasn't in figure skating. I'm only saying what other people have theorized. Personally, I'm thinking the reason is stupidity and/or incompetence on the IOC's part - not malice or suspicion of doping. Whether it be believing an Italian tabloid or forgetting to enter them into the system. That's why I'm waiting for the final list to be released. If it truly was stupidity or incompetence, they won't be left off that list unless the IOC is truly stupid. If they are left off the final list without good reason I will be more suspicious. But until then I'm waiting to see how the final list pans out.

To avoid situations like this, in the future, they should figure things out a lot sooner. They knew this would be an issue for the winter games, so why did they wait to make the final decision about the process of selecting athletes to compete until two months before the games? Couldn't they have done it last Spring or Summer and began figuring out which athletes - at least those that would likely make the team - could/could not compete last fall instead of weeks before the event is set to begin?

 

[WildRose]

Russian authorities who encouraged, facilitated, organized and covered up systematic and wide spread useage of performance enhancing drugs by their athletes are the ones who are to blame for this mess - not other countries and not the IOC.

 

[Bigbird]

What's that word Andrey used?

GOE: -3, really lacking in creativity and style. Bring it or go home.

 

[nimi]

Haven't been following the discussion closely but I thought I'd share this article (in Russian) in case it hasn't been already posted: https://lenta.ru/news/2018/01/23/moscowlab/

To avoid situations like this, in the future, they should figure things out a lot sooner. They knew this would be an issue for the winter games, so why did they wait to make the final decision about the process of selecting athletes to compete until two months before the games? Couldn't they have done it last Spring or Summer and began figuring out which athletes - at least those that would likely make the team - could/could not compete last fall instead of weeks before the event is set to begin?

Remember the electronic database of the Moscow lab that WADA got hold of last November? The article claims that was the main reason behind IOC's decision to exclude certain athletes from the pool.

 

[millyskate]

Bukin's letter is very restrained, and sad.
If as we believe, there is no failed test or known reason for his exclusion, and he's just incredibly unlucky - it would probably take the whole ice dance community coming together and saying they're not skating at the Olympics, they're not holding the event - for the IOC to be pressured into releasing a motive.
It won't happen, but I can never stand institutions imposing arbitrary rules. My French side dreams of a general strike because I know how powerful these are.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Ok HE is implying they are doped. I want proofs. And I want them now.

Actually, that is not what he said.
He says that the ones who are invited are clean. It doesn't mean the ones who are not invited have doped.
And if IOC has serious reasons to leave some sportsmen out, I would enjoy to hear them. And much more importantly, I would like those sportsmen to hear them so they can react. So far IOC acts like a mafia.

 

[caseyedwards]

Haven't been following the discussion closely but I thought I'd share this article (in Russian) in case it hasn't been already posted: https://lenta.ru/news/2018/01/23/moscowlab/

Remember the electronic database of the Moscow lab that WADA got hold of last November? The article claims that was the main reason behind IOC's decision to exclude certain athletes from the pool.

Seems like when Bukin was absent 2013-2014 it was because he was a test subject for the doping method used in Sochi and he wasn’t actually injured at all its just they had to keep him out of competition and international testing but not Russia testing.

 

[Vash01]

Bukin's letter is very restrained, and sad.
If as we believe, there is no failed test or known reason for his exclusion, and he's just incredibly unlucky - it would probably take the whole ice dance community coming together and saying they're not skating at the Olympics, they're not holding the event - for the IOC to be pressured into releasing a motive.
It won't happen, but I can never stand institutions imposing arbitrary rules. My French side dreams of a general strike because I know how powerful these are.

I don't see any ice dancer, even from Russia, boycotting the ice dance competition because of this, no matter how unfair the whole thing is. Thus is their (whoever) opportunity to win an Olympic medal. I doubt that they will sacrifice it. . And why should they? The IOC is acting like a thug, knowing that the skaters can do nothing against them.

 

[meggonzo]

Where is the letter?

I don't see any ice dancer, even from Russia, boycotting the ice dance competition because of this, no matter how unfair the whole thing is. Thus is their (whoever) opportunity to win an Olympic medal. I doubt that they will sacrifice it. . And why should they? The IOC is acting like a thug, knowing that the skaters can do nothing against them.

Post #997

 

[FarFarAway]

Seems like when Bukin was absent 2013-2014 it was because he was a test subject for the doping method used in Sochi and he wasn’t actually injured at all its just they had to keep him out of competition and international testing but not Russia testing.

Provided all this invaluable info is in the open in fact, I'm really very much wondering why the official line is some rubbish like "the fact they are being excluded doesn't mean they have been found guilty of doping" or "the suspicion is enough to reject". Since exactly when the enlightened world is giving out verdicts which are merely based on suspicion and something so vague and voluminously worded? Now I do understand the new wave of negative response which is on the rise over here. IOC has definitely performed a perfect overkill. If they could score for that, that would total in an absolute world record.

 

[millyskate]

Where is the letter?

I don't see any ice dancer, even from Russia, boycotting the ice dance competition because of this, no matter how unfair the whole thing is. Thus is their (whoever) opportunity to win an Olympic medal. I doubt that they will sacrifice it. . And why should they? The IOC is acting like a thug, knowing that the skaters can do nothing against them.

@TAHbKA posted it above.

It's a very English-speaking-world idea that one can do nothing against corporate bullies. Precisely, one can: but it requires collective risk and sacrifice. That's why French strikes are so effective at paralysing government and big companies.
The skaters could do something. If all the skaters stood together and said there would be no Olympic skating at all unless the IOC released a reason, they would. The athletes would win, and the IOC would lose. Except it won't happen, of course. I'm just dreaming.

But a reason could yet emerge. I have been wondering if either for reasons known to him or completely out of his control, Bukin's name has ended up on the list of the wrong lab, or the wrong doctor. We'll see - it's hard to not speculate.

 

[alice73]

Russian authorities who encouraged, facilitated, organized and covered up systematic and wide spread useage of performance enhancing drugs by their athletes are the ones who are to blame for this mess - not other countries and not the IOC.

I think Bukin and Stolbova are innocent, at least until proven guilty. But they are paying the price for the doping mess their government created in the lead up to Sochi. And when the mess was discovered, the same Russian government didn't do a single thing to protect their athletes, to defend their honor in a way that the issue would be resolved by the next Olympic Games in PC. This issue didn't just come up now. The Russian government had time to act but they haven't done much, other than accuse the West of conspiracy and of course deny their responsibility.

 

[nimi]

Bukin's letter is very restrained, and sad.
If as we believe, there is no failed test or known reason for his exclusion, and he's just incredibly unlucky - it would probably take the whole ice dance community coming together and saying they're not skating at the Olympics, they're not holding the event - for the IOC to be pressured into releasing a motive.

A reminder:

As has been explained repeatedly, there will not be any explanation from the IOC until the formal announcement of who is invited from Russia on 28th January. The information about Stolbova & Bukin has come from leaks within Russia. If there's no further information from the IOC after their deadline, carry on complaining, but for now can you all chill.

It wasn't the IOC who announced this Stolbova/Bukin thing. So, it seems a bit funny to be so up in arms about IOC not offering explanations and comments about an announcement they actually haven't made yet. Still a few more days to go. Meanwhile, it's all speculation, more or less.

 

[Vash01]

Bukin's open letter to IOC/Bach
`My name is Ivan Bukin, am a member of the Russian figure skating team, a son of an Olympic champion in ice dance Andrey Bukin who competed with Natalia Bestemianova. My mom also used to be competitive figure skater.
I grew up in a sportive family and from the very childhood learned you can gain things in the sports only by your hard work and not the background games or forbiddent substances.
I've been skating for many years. I was never part of any doping scandal. None of my tests returned positive. I don't understand how come a coupel of weeks before the Olympics, without any reason given am dismissed.
The Games in Korea were supposed to be my first Olympics. My skating partner Alexandra Stepanova and I aimed there for so many years. We worked hard and this year made it to the Olympic team of our country. Last week we became 3rd in the Europeans in Moscow.
Becoming an Olympian was my biggest dream and I can't understand nor accept my name not appearing in the list of the invited athletes.
I hope the decision will be reconsidered and I will be given a chance to participate the XXIII Games in 2018.'

(((Bukin))) (((Stepanova)))

My heart breaks for them.

For Stolbova and Klimov too, if they remain uninvited and don't even know why.

 

[Tinami Amori]

People, not to argue with anyone. Just for info:

• Russian athletes will be invited to join the OAR team based on a process overseen by a four-person group created by the IOC. It will be chaired by Valerie Fourneyron, France’s former minister of sports and the head of the International Testing Authority, a group created by the World Anti-Doping Agency earlier this year. Fourneyron, 58, is a doctor by trade.

• The other members of the panel are IOC medical and scientific director Richard Budgett, who will represent the IOC, and members yet to be appointed by WADA and by SportAccord’s Drug-Free Sport Unit. Budgett, 58, also a doctor by trade, was a gold medal-winning rower for Great Britain at the 1984 Olympics (the Games, coincidentally, that were boycotted by the Soviet Union and other aligned nations).

• The panel will only consider Russian athletes who have met the qualifying competition standards for their sport.

• Qualified athletes must pass a three-pronged test of their compliance with international doping standards: they can’t have been previously penalized or banned for doping; they must have taken part in and passed all tests recommended by the IOC’s Pre-Games Testing Task Force; and they must submit to and pass any additional tests required by the new panel.

• The Pre-Games Testing Task Force was created to pay special attention to certain athletes ahead of Pyeongchang in addition to normal drug testing carried out by countries and sport federations. This task force was particularly interested in Russian athletes because of the McLaren Report findings and the IOC’s own investigations. Targeted athletes also came from other nations and sports with questionable doping histories, athletes in the top 20 in the world in their sports, and athletes who had seen recent performance spikes.

• The IOC will also compile an invitation list for support staff for the OAR team. No one in a leadership position from Russia’s team in Sochi and no coach or doctor previously sanctioned for an anti-doping offence will be invited. The IOC, though, has pledged to provide the same level of technical support the athletes would have received from their own national Olympic committee.

 

[Vash01]

I love the idea that IOC is plotting the future results of ice dance and that is the reason for this whole thing. Ice dance rules all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-pyeongchang-olympics/?utm_term=.18da3345d94a



Its not all about ice dance, or figure skating. I asked before, does anyone know about why the non-skating athletes were left off?

We won't know unless the IOC tells us, and it doesn't look like they will.

I believe the figure skaters are innocent. About other athletes, I have no familiarity.

 

[FarFarAway]

I think Bukin and Stolbova are innocent, at least until proven guilty. But they are paying the price for the doping mess their government created in the lead up to Sochi. And when the mess was discovered, the same Russian government didn't do a single thing to protect their athletes, to defend their honor in a way that the issue would be resolved by the next Olympic Games in PC. This issue didn't just come up now. The Russian government had time to act but they haven't done much, other than accuse the West of conspiracy and of course deny their responsibility.

As if that would of changed anything rather than adding to the issue.

 

[Vash01]

Post #997

Thanks but I found it earlier when I went to earlier pages. Thanks anyway. It is a well written letter. Sadly it may not change anything for him.

 

[aftershocks]

To avoid situations like this, in the future, they should figure things out a lot sooner.

And maybe their country can learn not to collude and cheat, and not to interfere with their athletes in the first place, and not to keep pretending there was no intentional cheating on drug tests? There's no question the beauty, the talent, the desire, strength and exquisite qualities of so many Russian figure skaters, past and present (and excellence of all Russian athletes). But please, reality check and some of us could stand to cease with the defensiveness and denial about the lengths to which the Russian government went to interfere with test results and to experiment with doping for the purpose of enhancing their athletes' competitiveness. I doubt that the IOC and ISU are interested in launching a vendetta against Russian figure skaters, so let's see what the final decision will be. But their country needs to learn how to support them without all the heavy-handed defensiveness and denial of what went down in Sochi. Russia should learn how to properly support their athletes, and then leave them alone to breathe and to pursue their dreams without so much OTT interference.

I really hope this issue can be favorably resolved for Stolbova and Bukin. Maybe Stol/Klim will try to come back for another year too, but I get the feeling this was their last push since they've been having so many physical problems which led to their uncharacteristic technical inconsistencies the past two seasons. After awhile, inconsistency and resulting lack of confidence becomes a mental distraction too, as Stolbova admitted at Europeans.

 

[Elkmaria]

I think the discission is not about the state-sponsored doping in general. It is about trying to understand what Stolbova and Bukin have to do with all this. And about theoritizing, because we do not have any specific answer yet.

 

[pollyanna]

I really hope that they will change their minds, that Russia Federation can bring something to them that makes them add Bukin and Stolbova.

Right there with you.

 

[barbk]

Has the ISU said anything?

 

[Willin]

And maybe their country can learn not to collude and cheat, and not to interfere with their athletes in the first place, and not to keep pretending there was no intentional cheating on drug tests? There's no question the beauty, the talent, the desire, strength and exquisite qualities of so many Russian figure skaters, past and present (and excellence of all Russian athletes). But please, reality check and stop with the defensiveness and denial about the lengths to which their government went to interfere with test results and to experiment with doping for the purpose of enhancing their athletes' competitiveness. I doubt that the IOC and ISU are interested in launching a vendetta against Russian figure skaters, so let's see what the final decision will be. But their country needs to learn how to support them without all the heavy-handed defensiveness and denial of what went down in Sochi. Russia should learn how to properly support their athletes, and then leave them alone to breathe and to pursue their dreams without so much OTT interference.

When have I ever not said I think the cheating was despicable? Or denying that it ever happened? Look at my posting history - I'm very critical of the whole program and I'm sure Rodchenkov's allegations are true. I think any vendetta against Russian dopers and officials involved in the scheme is justified, but I don't think sports like figure skating that were not involved should have skaters randomly banned for no good reason whatsoever. That's why I'm waiting for the final decision and explanation to decide how I feel about the IOC's decision. Unless you're referring to other posters...

The reason I think this should've been done earlier is to avoid a mess like this. If they had made the decision to allow clean Russian athletes to compete in the summer they could've started approving/disapproving Russian athletes sooner. Even the new evidence in November could've been incorporated into already ongoing approval processes. Less than two months isn't enough time to process and approve 500+ athletes without mistakes, which could be what happened here.

 

[Sylvia]

Has the ISU said anything?

No. I expect any ISU statement will likely come after the IOC's.

 

[aftershocks]

I wasn't criticizing you for your comments @Willin, just adding my own thoughts in response to these developments and the phrasing I highlighted from your comments. There have been some defensive reactions by some posters in this thread and in general regarding this controversy. None of us like seeing the athletes suffer.

I think the discission is not about the state-sponsored doping in general. It is about trying to understand what Stolbova and Bukin have to do with all this.

Yes, the discussion has turned into less outraged commentary after some posters pointed out the need to wait and see what ultimately transpires. But obviously the entire situation and the unknown particulars affecting Stolbova and Bukin stem directly or indirectly from the 'state-sponsored doping' and resulting aftermath.

 

[Elkmaria]

obviously the entire situation and the unknown particulars affecting Stolbova and Bukin stem directly or indirectly from the 'state-sponsored doping' and resulting aftermath.

No doubt about that. All we need is a reason that links it all together. If they are in any way connected to this doping scheme, it will be a different matter and a different discussion. If no reasons are given, it is natural to be curious what IOC has to hide. Anyway, as already mentioned many times, the official statement by IOC will be released on Monday. Until then, it's all just speculation.

 

[aftershocks]

If no reasons are given, it is natural to be curious what IOC has to hide.

Agree with you generally. But with your above phrasing, you are presupposing the outcome in a negative way. It seems to me that the IOC has been bending over backwards to come up with a more than fair solution for innocent athletes.

 

[debo]

In Rio, weren’t certain Russian athletes cleared and allowed to compete **even after** the opening ceremonies had taken place? I seem to remember announcements made on NBC perhaps in swimming and Track and Field.

 

[barbk]

In Rio, weren’t certain Russian athletes cleared and allowed to compete **even after** the opening ceremonies had taken place? I seem to remember announcements made on NBC perhaps in swimming and Track and Field.

Yes...but that is a particularly tough issue with events that start right away, like the team event.

It has to be done before the draw.