Mark Mitchell: "Why would they come back to the rink?"

[aftershocks]

People wonder why figure skating lacks credibility. Is it because all the governing bodies are singularly irresponsible...

Ah the problems are very complex, but I think that's because much of the skating community's mentality is stuck in outdated thinking. It's an elitist, niche sport which poses a set of problems related to insularity and slowness to tackle problems until they become full-blown controversies and/or scandals. Part of the issue is management of the sport's governing body as well as the sport's old-fashioned competitive structure. They are obviously trying to implement some changes among the ISU and among feds, but there are deeper issues never addressed, and constantly swept under the rug out of fear and complacency (i.e., the antiquated managerial tie to speed skating, a completely different sport). Meanwhile, as usual too much is being asked and expected of the athletes. The BOW criteria is one thing to announce and another thing for athletes and their coaches to understand how it will be applied under different podium scenarios.

US fed truthfully takes too much for granted. When presented with complaints and criticisms, they always fall back on excuses and defensive reactions against challenges to their authority. And the skaters themselves have absolutely no voice, even despite inclusion of athlete representatives on these various committees. Skaters learn from a young age that they have no power over any kind of decision-making that affects their careers. They only have power over what they do on the ice, and even then strictures are involved in what they must include in their programs, how their costumes look, etc.

I happen to believe that some effort should be made to review why the two sports have to remain tied at the hip managerially. Some effort should be made for long term study of ways to revolutionize the competitive structure. Why can't they judiciously bring in outside experts from other fields to help with analysis and problem-solving? Why don't they listen to coaches; why don't they listen to skaters and to fans, and to passionate voices like that of Jackie Wong with his recent examination of problems with the scoring system?

Why doesn't IN and USFS care enough to listen to fans and to contract with a more technologically advanced online streaming service??? IN is awful. Look at how Skate Canada is now offering free streaming of their National championships. And U.S. fans are stuck with crappy MLB excuses. MLB understands nothing about figure skating, and cares even less. Their excuse for not offering advanced streaming technology is erroneously that fans are made up of elderly gray-haired ladies who don't have access to up-to-date computer technology.

US fed's process is not transparent. It's too tied up with political infighting. There's a lot issues that need addressing that are constantly swept under the rug, and that's why the current state of affairs is so complicated. I do think there has been some willingness to think differently, but it's such a slow, cautious, and often inept misguided approach that they take. The entire structure and way of doing things needs to change, and that will take time, but it will also take passionate informed leadership. The situation now seems to stay so bound up in status quo thinking and a desire to go along to get along.

 

[BittyBug]

And the skaters themselves have absolutely no voice, even despite inclusion of athlete representatives on these various committees.

How can you say this when by law (Amateur Sports Act) athletes must constitute at least 20% of the voting members of all committees and boards of any national governing body of a US Olympic Sport? And in this case athletes had 25% of the votes.

 

[aftershocks]

How can you say this when by law (Amateur Sports Act) athletes must constitute at least 20% of the voting members of all committees and boards of any national governing body of a US Olympic Sport? And in this case athletes had 25% of the votes.

How involved are you @BittyBug? I'm sure you know a lot more about many aspects of the sport than I do. Even though athlete reps are included, I'm not sure how much the actual athletes' true voices are heard. Aren't the representatives usually former skaters, not active skaters? I don't know, I'm asking. How close are former skaters to currently active skaters? Do the athlete reps hold regular meetings with groups of eligible skaters to discuss their views on a variety of topics? Or is the contact more informal? There are lots of questions I think surrounding whether the athlete reps actually are able to have much impact. It's at least good that there are some involved, and hopefully they are bringing ideas and concerns that active skaters have to the table inside these committee rooms.

 

[BittyBug]

@aftershocks, the Amateur Sports Act defines an athlete rep to be someone who is within 10 years of amateur status, but there are also current competitors on committees. Further, many of the people heavily involved in the sport were at one time athletes themselves, so while they may be more than 10 years out from their competitive days, they were competitors themselves at one time. For example, on the international selection committee, Wendy Enzmann was a pairs skater and Kathleen Cutone was a singles skater. See this post for more details.

 

[ballettmaus]

So if the courses are the fall competitions (GP’s, Challengers, etc) and Nationals is the interview the question becomes: Should the BOW be considered, or should it simply be viewed as all the course work to learn the skills to be able to knock it out of the park at Nationals? What good is it to skate well on the GP if you can’t translate that into a great skate when the pressure is on?

Is there really no pressure during the GP? Don't skaters always want to skate well especially in an Olympic season in front of international judges?

I'm not sure if I'd compare the courses to the fall competitions. Rather, I'd see the courses as training and each competition as an interview. You learn the moves and improve in training, you apply it in competition and you show how well you can apply what you've learned.

I'd say if Miner is struggling with consistency there is something he hasn't yet learned. He probably has all the moves and skills and it's probably in his head.

That said, I don't know if I'd consider someone who doesn't deliver at Nationals as the more reliable skater. Seems like it's a toss up. I also would have definitely named Miner 1st alternate if he had to be an alternate to begin with.

 

[once_upon]

I've lost track of the BOW issues, so don't remember if it was in this thread that talked about sports like football easy to understand the win/loss in or out. However (and my opinion).......

In college football, there is indeed a BOW component to the National Championships and awards like Heisman. But in order to be considered, one has to build a BOW of work, some of it is location, some of it is skill but you must build a BOW over your career. Then your BOW plays into you getting a scholarship - but not just a scholarship but one to the right school. Then your BOW names you as first string or back-up. Then it is dependent upon what sportcasters and coaches deem your school's BOW/competitors to rank you in the top 25 schools. Even if your school looses it's conference championship, it is still possible by the team's BOW to be named one of the top 4 teams and get to play for the possibility of a national championship. Basically in order to have a run at it, you have to have the BOW.

Sometimes the BOW is not enough too. My niece who had been named to a state varsity volleyball team each year *and the first ever freshman*, had one university she wanted to attend. One that had national championships. That university chose another equally qualified applicant, based upon what they determined would create the team to best accomplish a national championship (height). Just like, I assume, USFS named the team that they felt would have the best opportunity for a team medal.

My point is that although most people think they know what a true sport looks like - a score in a football game or a score in hockey, the selection of the team members is based upon BOW and skill and opportunity.

Should Ross by results of US Nationals been named to the first alternate? I think so, but I didn't have all the knowledge people in the room did. Should they have notified by other message than text? Probably.

 

[Cleo1782]

I've lost track of the BOW issues, so don't remember if it was in this thread that talked about sports like football easy to understand the win/loss in or out. However (and my opinion).......

In college football, there is indeed a BOW component to the National Championships and awards like Heisman. But in order to be considered, one has to build a BOW of work, some of it is location, some of it is skill but you must build a BOW over your career. Then your BOW plays into you getting a scholarship - but not just a scholarship but one to the right school. Then your BOW names you as first string or back-up. Then it is dependent upon what sportcasters and coaches deem your school's BOW/competitors to rank you in the top 25 schools. Even if your school looses it's conference championship, it is still possible by the team's BOW to be named one of the top 4 teams and get to play for the possibility of a national championship. Basically in order to have a run at it, you have to have the BOW.

Sometimes the BOW is not enough too. My niece who had been named to a state varsity volleyball team each year *and the first ever freshman*, had one university she wanted to attend. One that had national championships. That university chose another equally qualified applicant, based upon what they determined would create the team to best accomplish a national championship (height). Just like, I assume, USFS named the team that they felt would have the best opportunity for a team medal.

My point is that although most people think they know what a true sport looks like - a score in a football game or a score in hockey, the selection of the team members is based upon BOW and skill and opportunity.

Should Ross by results of US Nationals been named to the first alternate? I think so, but I didn't have all the knowledge people in the room did. Should they have notified by other message than text? Probably.

The Olympic team and alternates have always been notified by text since 2010. It's just the way it is done. Mirai in 2014 was so this is no different.

 

[Carolla5501]

So have we heard whether Mark has gone back to coaching.

 

[Coco]

IJS has really emphasized score over placement. I don't think this is a bad thing, but it has seeped into all areas of the sport, including Olympic Team Selection. Under 6.0, placement was only as important as 1) who you were competing against and 2) how well everyone did. It was hard to know how good someone was just looking at their placements in various competitions. Under IJS, there are literally thousands of data points for TPTB to consider. It would be hard for them to justify going off placement without considering scores, average GOE or consecutive elements with GOE.

 

[MAXSwagg]

IJS has really emphasized score over placement. I don't think this is a bad thing, but it has seeped into all areas of the sport, including Olympic Team Selection. Under 6.0, placement was only as important as 1) who you were competing against and 2) how well everyone did. It was hard to know how good someone was just looking at their placements in various competitions. Under IJS, there are literally thousands of data points for TPTB to consider. It would be hard for them to justify going off placement without considering scores, average GOE or consecutive elements with GOE.

It’s funny because most of the scores are BS now and judges really just use the points as a way to get at ranking.

 

[Coco]

But the base value isn't BS.

 

[tylersf]

What other things can he do? Did he ever get a high school, a college degree or anything? He's handsome, maybe he can be like a middle-aged model. Maybe he could go to nursing school or get his cosmetology license. The world is his oyster.

So have we heard whether Mark has gone back to coaching.

 

[Carolla5501]

What other things can he do? Did he ever get a high school, a college degree or anything? He's handsome, maybe he can be like a middle-aged model. Maybe he could go to nursing school or get his cosmetology license. The world is his oyster.

I expect he will actually go back to coaching just waiting on confirmation.

 

[berthesghost]

Well, youth is wasted on the young.

But I am a bit confused on why we are now openly mocking middle-aged people who feel they are trapped in dead-end careers. Have we finally lost all civility as a culture?

 

[Carolla5501]

Well, youth is wasted on the young.

But I am a bit confused on why we are now openly mocking middle-aged people who feel they are trapped in dead-end careers. Have we finally lost all civility as a culture?

You are correct and I have edited my post. I apologize.

However, how do you know he feels "trapped"? He may feel that he has tons of opportunities.

But he's the one who announced his plans to quit his career, which appears to be fairly lucrative, so I think it's fine to be curious as to his actual "follow through".

 

[Yazmeen]

I have no problem with him being upset; however, saying he was going to leave skating all together was just unnecessary drama. The focus of the event was the skaters; not him. In my opinion, he turned the "tragedy" onto himself, instead of Ross.

 

[Carolla5501]

I have no problem with him being upset; however, saying he was going to leave skating all together was just unnecessary drama. The focus of the event was the skaters; not him. In my opinion, he turned the "tragedy" onto himself, instead of Ross.

Of course it's possible he thought this would lead to change.

Maybe he thinks that if the top coaches say "either change or we are leaving" USFS will go back to "top 3 at Nationals". And I guess it's possible, but the problem is that for every coach negatively effected there's one who got a skater in the games so......I don't think they would support this type of protest.

 

[Marco]

Wait til the next quad or so when he has a skater who has two strong seasons going into the Olympic Nationals only to place fourth there. We will then see what he will advocate for.

If I sound like I have no sympathy it is because I feel something as important as an Olympic berth should not be based solely on one night or one weekend of skating. It makes more sense to select someone who has demonstrated consistency and strength over time. And you don't want someone timing to peak at Nationals instead of at Olympics/Worlds, or someone who throws it all out and hope for a miracle because "he has nothing to lose".

And if Mark Mitchell truly loves skating but despises the politiks at the top, perhaps he could coach non-competitive or even entry level skating. He will be able to bring skaters into the sport and wouldn't have to deal with all that Nationals pressure.

 

[casken]

Have we finally lost all civility as a culture?

Yes?

 

[Vagabond]

What other things can he do? Did he ever get a high school, a college degree or anything? He's handsome, maybe he can be like a middle-aged model. Maybe he could go to nursing school or get his cosmetology license. The world is his oyster.

What decade did you just step out of? The 1970's?

 

[Rock2]

My point is that although most people think they know what a true sport looks like - a score in a football game or a score in hockey, the selection of the team members is based upon BOW and skill and opportunity.

Open to that discussion...but I think the only apples-to-apples comparison is a sport with an Olympic trials event/national qualifier. And then see to what extent those results get an override in cases other than injuries.

The learning is to know how much WEIGHT the qualifier has, and if that weighting seems consistent over time or if it changes. Check if the federations toggle their idea of what weight they want to use and deploy BOW subjective rationale to install someone else that they seem to prefer. Especially if that person has never won a medal at a world or olympic championship, is not seen as a medal contender at a world or Olympic championship and is not seen as someone able to impact the country's chances in the team event.

If we contain the discussion to those circumstances, it's worth a debate and comparison IMHO.

 

[ZilphaK]

I've lost track of the BOW issues, so don't remember if it was in this thread that talked about sports like football easy to understand the win/loss in or out. However (and my opinion).......

In college football, there is indeed a BOW component to the National Championships and awards like Heisman. But in order to be considered, one has to build a BOW of work, some of it is location, some of it is skill but you must build a BOW over your career. Then your BOW plays into you getting a scholarship - but not just a scholarship but one to the right school. Then your BOW names you as first string or back-up. Then it is dependent upon what sportcasters and coaches deem your school's BOW/competitors to rank you in the top 25 schools. Even if your school looses it's conference championship, it is still possible by the team's BOW to be named one of the top 4 teams and get to play for the possibility of a national championship. Basically in order to have a run at it, you have to have the BOW.

Sometimes the BOW is not enough too. My niece who had been named to a state varsity volleyball team each year *and the first ever freshman*, had one university she wanted to attend. One that had national championships. That university chose another equally qualified applicant, based upon what they determined would create the team to best accomplish a national championship (height). Just like, I assume, USFS named the team that they felt would have the best opportunity for a team medal.

My point is that although most people think they know what a true sport looks like - a score in a football game or a score in hockey, the selection of the team members is based upon BOW and skill and opportunity.

Should Ross by results of US Nationals been named to the first alternate? I think so, but I didn't have all the knowledge people in the room did. Should they have notified by other message than text? Probably.

Yes, but this system is riddled with controversy -- this year included -- with constant attempts to make it more "fair" by counting less and less on body of work for the "championship" (in reality, there is no official NCAA title). It's not a system that NHL or NFL or MLB use in determining championships. That's all done by the points, with one team advancing through playoffs via wins, even wins over favorites who did better all season.

 

[MacMadame]

I have no problem with him being upset; however, saying he was going to leave skating all together was just unnecessary drama. The focus of the event was the skaters; not him. In my opinion, he turned the "tragedy" onto himself, instead of Ross.

He isn't the first coach to say something like this and sometimes they even do leave. (I know of a dance coach who left skating after he felt his team was screwed over at Sectionals, for example.)

And you don't want someone timing to peak at Nationals instead of at Olympics/Worlds, or someone who throws it all out and hope for a miracle because "he has nothing to lose".

I don't know, I kind of like it when someone throws it all out there because they have "nothing to lose."

 

[bardtoob]

I have no problem with him being upset; however, saying he was going to leave skating all together was just unnecessary drama. The focus of the event was the skaters; not him. In my opinion, he turned the "tragedy" onto himself, instead of Ross.

There have been other successful coaches that have said as much after disappointment.

I think this just shows that Mark cares.

I have no problem with him being upset; however, saying he was going to leave skating all together was just unnecessary drama. The focus of the event was the skaters; not him. In my opinion, he turned the "tragedy" onto himself, instead of Ross.

I thought he said something to the effect of how could he promise his students that hard work pays off. To me, this sounds like he was upset for his students.

 

[olympic]

What decade did you just step out of? The 1970's?

Surprised ‘flight attendant’ wasn’t thrown in there

 

[overedge]

I thought he said something to the effect of how could he promise his students that hard work pays off. To me, this sounds like he was upset for his students.

If he's promising his students that hard work in skating pays off in getting medals and competitive assignments, then he's in the wrong sport.

Skating just has too many unknowns, some of which the skater can control, some of which they can't. Hard work in skating can pay off in a lot of ways, but getting the placement you worked for and that you deserve isn't always one of them.

 

[poths]

Mitchell has a really good point. In 2014 Ashley had a chance at an individual medal, she was a two time national champ, and I believe a two time GPF Medalist. She also was top five at worlds the previous year, yes? She was also in 4th right behind Mirai. Ross was in second! Adam has no more of a chance at an Olympic medal than Ross. And then to not even give Ross 4CC’s, this is beyond reason.

Except, it's not beyond reason. Infact, many see this as a perfectly reasonable decision. I'm surprised Mark and Ross were under the impression that a high placement at nationals would earn a ticket to Olympics. One might hope this to be the case, but the criteria was clear. As much as I sympathise, I think a coach should be clearly informed about protocol and how to ensure selection for their student to the Olympic Games. It doesn't seem like MM was, which means he didn't do his job effectively. Sport can be cruel.

 

[bardtoob]

If he's promising his students that hard work in skating pays off in getting medals and competitive assignments, then he's in the wrong sport.

Skating just has too many unknowns, some of which the skater can control, some of which they can't. Hard work in skating can pay off in a lot of ways, but getting the placement you worked for and that you deserve isn't always one of them.

Which is why I am just a "Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor"

 

[thvu]

Mitchell has a really good point. In 2014 Ashley had a chance at an individual medal, she was a two time national champ, and I believe a two time GPF Medalist. She also was top five at worlds the previous year, yes? She was also in 4th right behind Mirai. Ross was in second! Adam has no more of a chance at an Olympic medal than Ross. And then to not even give Ross 4CC’s, this is beyond reason.

Except nowhere does the criteria state “likelihood to medal,” nor does it imply that it’s part of the criteria. I don’t really get this argument when trying to compare Wagner/Nagasu in 2014 to Rippon/Minor today.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Except, it's not beyond reason. Infact, many see this as a perfectly reasonable decision. I'm surprised Mark and Ross were under the impression that a high placement at nationals would earn a ticket to Olympics. One might hope this to be the case, but the criteria was clear. As much as I sympathise, I think a coach should be clearly informed about protocol and how to ensure selection for their student to the Olympic Games. It doesn't seem like MM was, which means he didn't do his job effectively. Sport can be cruel.

The criteria were similar in 2014, sans Challenger Series, which wasn't a thing yet. The silver medalist was not left off the team in 2014 when Wagner was put on: the bronze medalist was, and the silver medalist who went to Sochi had no senior international experience, only junior BOW.

I doubt Miner would have expected to be on the team had he been the bronze medalist. I think it was earning silver and being left off the team that rankled.