I, Tonya

[SmallFairy]

I was at Hamar for the SP too. @gkelly it was my first live competition too, and I was very new to figure skating at that time, I only knew the really well known skaters. Norwegian broadcast didn't show all skaters and I remember there were three skaters I really took notice of and was disappointed that didn't make the broadcast when I looked at my tape later. That was Kulovana, Rechnio and Mila Kajas of Finland. I remember Rechnio skating clean and her speed and attack must have made her stand out. Kulovana was the last skater, she skated lovely and clean, but with lower difficulty than the big guns. I remember the audience booing her score, they didn't get it, and me neither, at the time.

I also remember the crazy amount of flowers for Nancy, it was wild, I've never seen anything like it since.

 

[Vagabond]

Also, in response to @Vagabond's question of who came in 5th in the SP, I'm pretty sure there was a tie for 5th. Ties were rare under the ordinal system but still possible and I have a vague recollection of seeing it happen this time.

From Wikipedia:

5 Kumiko Koiwai

Japan 8.0 5 5
6 Lyudmyla Ivanova

Ukraine 8.0 2 7
7 Karen Preston

Canada 8.5 5 6

(The link to the competition results page no longer works.)

If Koiwai and Preston tied, then Koiwai's Total Ordinals would be 7.5, not 8.0, so I assume she actually finished sixth, behind Preston, in the SP.

On another, equally important, front:

10 Tatiana Malinina

Uzbekistan 15.0 10 10
11 Laëtitia Hubert

France 15.5 9 11

 

[Seerek]

What's up with Diane Rawlinson singling out Caryn Kadavy withdrawing from the 1988 Olympic long program due to illness, saying she should have withdrawn before the event started? Tonya wasn't even first alternate.

 

[bardtoob]

What's up with Diane Rawlinson singling out Caryn Kadavy withdrawing from the 1988 Olympic long program due to illness, saying she should have withdrawn before the event started? Tonya wasn't even first alternate.

Interesting. Who was first alternate?

 

[bardtoob]

I wonder if somebody in Japan could request the recordings of NHK 1993 from NHK? They must he archived, even if never broadcasted.

 

[Coco]

Jeri Campbell was first alternate in 1988.

@bardtoob

 

[moebius]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvVjWR3zTQ

I don't know if anyone posted the song about Tonya Harding by Sufjan Stevens. Don't know if this is for the movie.

 

[Erin]

What's up with Diane Rawlinson singling out Caryn Kadavy withdrawing from the 1988 Olympic long program due to illness, saying she should have withdrawn before the event started? Tonya wasn't even first alternate.

Tonya made similar comments in The Tonya Tapes, which I suffered through reading (of my own choice). Tonya said in there that she was first alternate in yet another instance of revisionist history. It was supremely irritating that neither she nor Diane seem to remember (a) the existence of Jeri Campbell or (b) that Kadavy's illness in Calgary came up suddenly between the SP and LP. Her SP is one that many people (including me) believe should have won the SP, so it's not that it was a situation where she was injured ahead of the Games and knew she should have withdrawn but delayed until the last minute. It's situations like this that make me doubt her credibility on other topics (and also Diane's).

 

[bardtoob]

It was supremely irritating that neither she nor Diane seem to remember (a) the existence of Jeri Campbell ...

Jeri was better than Tonya in Compulsory Figures.

Jeri had the 3Lz, solid basics, and did beat Tonya in the 1988 US Nationals SP, but kind of fell apart in the LP at 1988 US Nationals and Tonya beat her in that segment.

https://youtu.be/4A55JZiGu2Q

 

[berthesghost]

So at anytime during all this whining about the vast conspiracy keeping her down all the time, did anyone on team Tonya mention she bombed the sp at ‘88 nats, finishing behind peeps like fresh from juniors Bortz and Tonia K? The first person she did beat though was dear old Nancy. You know Nancy, the one the judges preferred and always unfairly placed above TH.

 

[bardtoob]

... did anyone on team Tonya mention she bombed the sp at ‘88 nats ...

I always wanted to see the footage.

You know Nancy, the one the judges preferred and always unfairly placed above TH.

Oy ... Did you see Nancy back then? ... Let's say her "presentation" was a bit rough, with fake feathers and bad hair.

 

[gkelly]

Let's say her "presentation" was a bit rough, with fake feathers and bad hair.

Well, it was the 80s. A lot of skaters had bad hair, by the standards of any other era.

 

[bardtoob]

Well, it was the 80s. A lot of skaters had bad hair, by the standards of any other era.

No, some wore it better than others, and fake feathers were never good.

 

[Inessence]

Interesting shortly post-Lillehammer interview with Rolanda Watts. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=WL&t=19s&v=95rjRhjESUg

 

[bardtoob]

... finishing behind peeps like fresh from juniors Bortz and Tonia K?

Nature was really unkind to Cindy Bortz's technical content, although she had very solid basics that never failed her. She always had great speed and flow.

Here is Cindy at 1987 Jr. Worlds with 3Lz and 3F among others.

https://youtu.be/CNnyindwb1M

Here is Cindy at 1988 Nationals with barely a 3T-2T.

https://youtu.be/1hH3lLs1WK4

... Then there is Tonia Kwiatkowski. When I think of Tonia K. I think of her head looking over her shoulder and her dainty leg position as she entered a 2A. It always seemed like Tonia K. was more interested in having "PERFECT JUMP ENTRANCES" rather than perfect jumps

Here is Tonia K. at 1989 NHK. Notice she attempts the 3Lz without that exaggerated cross-foot entrance she eventually adopted and it is perfectly fine except she needs to actually JUMP!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fks3FNQmo3o

 

[cmk]

Nature was really unkind to Cindy Bortz's technical content, although she had very solid basics that never failed her. The always had great speed and flow.

Here is Cindy at 1987 Jr. Worlds with 3Lz and 3F among others.

https://youtu.be/CNnyindwb1M

Here is Cindy at 1987 Nationals with barely a 3T-2T.

https://youtu.be/1hH3lLs1WK4

... Then there is Tonia Kwiatkowski. When I think of Tonia K. I think of her head looking over shoulder and her dainty leg position as she entered a 2A. It always seemed like Tonia K. was more interested in having "PERFECT JUMP ENTRANCES" rather than clean jumps

Wasn't Bortz later diagnosed with some kind of medical condition that cut short her career? Tonia K was a late bloomer, and her skating really improved after she finished college (one of the few that was taking a full load at college and competing nationally). If only she had hadn't attempted the 3sal (like Kristi , she couldn't do it either) at 98 nationals, she might of bumped Nicole off the team. Bobek skated well at 98 nationals though, but bombed the short (missed all 3 jumps), and the long at Olympics. (I think she missed everything there- our cable company had cbc at the time and they refused to show her - called it a mercy chack). Tonia K was coached by Carol Heiss her entire career.

 

[cmk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvVjWR3zTQ

I don't know if anyone posted the song about Tonya Harding by Sufjan Stevens. Don't know if this is for the movie.

He did write it and submit it to the movie producers. They didn't use it.

 

[skateboy]

Interesting shortly post-Lillehammer interview with Rolanda Watts. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=WL&t=19s&v=95rjRhjESUg

Tonya looks very attractive here and was quite well-spoken.

 

[Seerek]

In that same 1988 U.S. Nationals, Holly Cook would start her trend of using music used by other U.S. Ladies from prior seasons (in this case, Debi Thomas: Duke Ellington, the River, then Jill Trenary: Gloria Estefan, Conga). Holly would later copy from Caryn Kadavy.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In that same 1988 U.S. Nationals, Holly Cook would start her trend of using music used by other U.S. Ladies from prior seasons (in this case, Debi Thomas: Duke Ellington, the River, then Jill Trenary: Gloria Estefan, Conga). Holly would later copy from Caryn Kadavy.

To be fair, Jill didn't use Conga until the 1989/90 season for her free skate. Tiffany Chin also used cuts from The River in 1984 for her short program.

Cook, Jeri Campbell, Tonya Harding, Tisha Walker, and in the junior ranks, Elizabeth Wright, all seemed to be cut from the same cloth.

At the time they were all bottle blondes with permed, short hair who wore pink or blue, and skated to upbeat, powerful music to emphasise their athletic prowess.

 

[cmk]

I thought Cook was better at figures than freeskating. Tonya's uniqueness was the eventual ability to land the 3axel (and with Midori Ito the only other female at that time. I don't see the figure skating community reaching out to Debi Thomas either with her current problems- but if she doesn't want to be a doctor anymore, I am pretty sure she could coach skating or go into teaching . Tonya isn't on gofundme begging for money instead of working. From photos, her husband , son, and her are living in a house, they have cars- I am assuming one or both have jobs. I don't recall any bottle blond Asians. Tonya didn't have the same amount of money as the other girls, she and her mom did collect pop cans to pay for lessons, and Diane did do some for free. I think Tonya actually trained regularly until meeting Jeff ub 89. She did win bronze in 89 nationals but wasn't able to go because the 3rd spot was reserved for last year's world medalist (the retired Thomas.). Diane than decided Tonya would be better off with Dody. Tonya was attempting harder technical content than most ladies in 88 and sometimes missed. Kerrigan was still doing a 3toe combo in the short as late as 91. (that's why Nancy was 5th in the short at 91 worlds behind Kristi, Tonya, Surya, and Midori- she did an easier program).

 

[cmk]

I couldn't find Tonya's l988nationals programs on youtube, but I did find her 1987 NHk programs- she was doing 3lutz/2loop in the short so she wasn't doing less than the other girls. I believe Trenary did 3flip combo. My guess is Tonya made some kind of error on the 3 lutz at 1988 nats. She also did 5 different triples in the long ( a couple with shaky landings) - no axel but 3lutz, 3toe, 3sal, 3loop/2loop, several 2 axels, and a 3 flip (shaky) near the end of the program.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't know if you were being sarcastic or ironic, but yours is probably the most offensive post I have ever read on this board.

I recommend turning off the irony filter on your Internet browser. It will make life a little more bearable.

 

[bardtoob]

I recommend turning off the irony filter on your Internet browser. It will life a little more bearable.

Too bad what you are referring too will appear on searches in Google with references to FSU.

 

[Vagabond]

I know.

 

[skateboy]

She did win bronze in 89 nationals but wasn't able to go because the 3rd spot was reserved for last year's world medalist (the retired Thomas.).

I've heard people say that Tonya was never judged unfairly, but she definitely was at 1989 Nationals. Her placing third there, behind Jill and Kristi, was robbery. Tonya was 2nd heading into the long and outskated Jill technically (by far) and Kristi (technical quality and artistically, imo). Take a look (this is the order they skated):

Jill: https://youtu.be/qpUFypVNp8U?t=2m21s

Kristi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gObdzCNfA

Tonya: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8obNbvUiBs0

Tonya probably deserved to win that Nationals... at the very least, she deserved to win the free skate and be on the world team. Tonya was decent in figures and may have done some real damage at 1989 Worlds.

 

[Coco]

Wow...that's pretty stark.

 

[bardtoob]

I've heard people say that Tonya was never judged unfairly, but she definitely was at 1989 Nationals. Her placing third there, behind Jill and Kristi, was robbery. Tonya was 2nd heading into the long and outskated Jill technically (by far) and Kristi (technical quality and artistically, imo). Take a look (this is the order they skated):

Jill: https://youtu.be/qpUFypVNp8U?t=2m21s

Kristi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gObdzCNfA

Tonya: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8obNbvUiBs0

Tonya probably deserved to win that Nationals... at the very least, she deserved to win the free skate and be on the world team. Tonya was decent in figures and may have done some real damage at 1989 Worlds.

Wow...that's pretty stark.

Here are my thoughts on it. I admit directly they are a conspiracy theory

Well, Tonya was 4th in figures during 1989 Nationals. Compare that to Kristi and Nancy, who were 8th and 9th.

. . . I have this completely unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that Tonya did not make the 1989 World Team because she was good enough in Figures to be disruptive to Trenary's bid for the World Championship, particularly if Tonya beat Midori in Figures and beat Trenary in the SP and LP, or, worse yet, beat both Midori and Trenary in the SP and/or LP.

On the other hand, Yamaguchi was good, but unable to wedge herself between Midori and Trenary the same way Tonya could.

Tonya was actually a much more direct competitor with Trenary than Yamaguchi from 1985 to 1990 Worlds . . .

 

[cmk]

Here are my thoughts on it. I admit directly they are a conspiracy theory

I believe Kristi might have also still been skating pairs with Rudy at that time as well. From viewing the 89 nationals on youtube, I believe that both Kristi and Tonya were robbed there- I didn't think Trenary was all that great but she usually had a large lead in figures. I think they were a bit harsh on Tonya at 90 nationals ( she was 2nd after the short, got the flu or something before the long and it made her a bit sluggish in the free, but they didn't have to drop her all the way down to 7th overall (which I think was the lowest she ever placed at a national). The judges knew she was sick. I didn't find anything offensive about that pink dress ( it was one of her more conservative costumes actually).

 

[cmk]

I would also argue that Tonya was judged unfairly at 93 nationals ( only Ervin and Kwan skated well. Kerrigan was a mess in the long as well but given the win anyway.) I would still of placed Tonya over Lisa simply due to the fact Lisa only had up to a 3loop so she really didn't have the technical difficult the 90's required at the senior level. Lisa would go on to miss the loop combo in the short, and ended up 13th overall. Tonia K didn't make it out of qualifying. The usfsa screwed themselves by punishing Tonya and Nicole for not being perfect little ice princesses. When Kerrigan messed up in the long ( she also had an ingrown toenail removed between the short and long- couldn't that had waited until after the free , the usfsa lost a spot. Tonya was more than capable of medaling, and we all know that Nicole could finish anywhere from first to last. I also think Tonya was robbed in 92 ( she was placed 6th in short after missing 3axel but Midori missed a 3lutz combo and placed 4th - I thought Tonya outskated Midori overall in the short. She definitely should of placed ahead of Nancy in the free- Nancy's 92 free was a complete mess. Tonya missed the 3 axel, but landed 5 triples, and her spins and speed were far superior to Nancy's. If only the judges had got it rignt in 92, there probably would of been no whack. Kristi went to stars on ice, Tonya probably would of went to Ice Capades after completing the 92 coi tour and the pro comps. (Dick did likeTonya's skating)