Harvey Weinstein megaproducer and executive ousted over sexual harassment

[gk_891]

I grew up with the understanding that Canada prided itself on being a 'cultural mosaic' versus a 'melting pot', which was more characteristic of the U.S. Though I'm sure there is variance in Canadians' perspective on how true that claim is.

The problem with the cultural mosaic idea is that I find for most Canadians, other cultures are 'tolerated' to an extent but they must remain separate from the mainstream. And my personal experience with most white Canadians is that they will be polite on the exterior but they will firmly keep you at arms length. I guess that's why the racism in Canada is sometimes referred to as polite racism.

Another issue I often have with the mosaic idea is that it's often for show. And beneath the show and tell aspect, there isn't all that much else there.

 

[Jenny]

The problem with the cultural mosaic idea is that I find for most Canadians, other cultures are 'tolerated' to an extent but they must remain separate from the mainstream. And my personal experience with most white Canadians is that they will be polite on the exterior but they will firmly keep you at arms length. I guess that's why the racism in Canada is sometimes referred to as polite racism.

Another issue I often have with the mosaic idea is that it's often for show. And beneath the show and tell aspect, there isn't all that much else there.

I won't dispute that this is your experience, nor pretend that everything is perfect, but I must emphatically say that this is not my experience at all.

In my own experience - in my family, among friends, when I was at school, among colleagues and in my community, for the most part (not always) diverse cultures are celebrated, embraced, even adopted. Sure, people with common backgrounds/cultures/religions/interests often stick together, but not a day goes by that I don't see people breaking across those labels, often creating something new together (perhaps defined by some as the mosaic).

And it's worth noting that while racism does exist, it's simplifying the issue to say it's only about whites vs non-whites, or everyone vs First Nations. Dig a little deeper and you will find that all sorts of racism exist in Canada, as it does everywhere.

 

[gk_891]

I won't dispute that this is your experience, nor pretend that everything is perfect, but I must emphatically say that this is not my experience at all.

In my own experience - in my family, among friends, when I was at school, among colleagues and in my community, for the most part (not always) diverse cultures are celebrated, embraced, even adopted. Sure, people with common backgrounds/cultures/religions/interests often stick together, but not a day goes by that I don't see people breaking across those labels, often creating something new together (perhaps defined by some as the mosaic).

And it's worth noting that while racism does exist, it's simplifying the issue to say it's only about whites vs non-whites, or everyone vs First Nations. Dig a little deeper and you will find that all sorts of racism exist in Canada, as it does everywhere.

That's great that your experience was/is different from mine. But I often find that general 'acceptance' is usually a shallow one. A friend of mine (his family is from India) once told me that Canadians who often express an interest in Indian culture will often talk about things like food, music, and the clothes that the women wear. But when it comes to deeper aspects of the culture like the various ideologies, values, and beliefs, there is often a lot of hatred, albeit expressed politely of course. Another friend of mine from Trinidad often says the same thing. And one thing that really got to her was all the stares she would often get, as if she was a museum curiosity. I can certainly identify with both of their complaints

I guess much of what I'm saying is anecdotal. And who knows, maybe it's all because of where I happen to live. But so many of my friends who are from minority backgrounds have left Canada altogether and have forewarned family members to stay away as they believe Canada's reputation as being very accepting and tolerant is propaganda that's been swallowed by almost everyone. And based on my personal experiences, I would have to agree to a certain extent.

 

[Japanfan]

That's great that your experience was/is different from mine. But I often find that general 'acceptance' is usually a shallow one.

My own experience has been more like Jenny's in that "diverse cultures are celebrated, embraced, even adopted".

I grew up in a Jewish family in a largely Christian mining town where there were only a few Jewish families, and a few families of colour. In terms of ethnicity, the town was tolerant (except for the First Nations population, sadly). We didn't feel alienated because we were Jewish (albeit non-practicing). When the boys used to hound and bully me in junior high school they would hurl a bunch of nasty names at me, but I don't recall once being insulted for being Jewish. One of my best friends was Indian, and she too has no recollection of being victim to racism.

My city, Vancouver BC, is wonderfully multi-cultural and there a lot of festivals and events for all the different cultures. If you like different types of Asian foods, this city is paradise.

I am in a minority in my neighborhood, which is predominantly Asian. Italians are the second largest population. Now, I have heard racist comments made about the Asian population, such as "The only _____ language you ever hear in this city any more is ____".

But for the most part my neighborhood is a very comfortable and respectful place for people of different ethnic backgrounds. When I go to the dog park, other dog owners are always friendly and willing to engage in conversation, regardless of what their ethnicity is.

There is one Chinese-run grocery that caters to the Asians in the neigborhood, and one that caters to the Italians and other non-Asians. They are both awesome places to shop, and the staff at the one that caters to the Italians seem to love their jobs and are an absolute hoot!

I am proud of my neighborhood as a Canadian.

 

[gk_891]

My own experience has been more like Jenny's in that "diverse cultures are celebrated, embraced, even adopted".

I grew up in a Jewish family in a largely Christian mining town where there were only a few Jewish families, and a few families of colour. In terms of ethnicity, the town was tolerant (except for the First Nations population, sadly). We didn't feel alienated because we were Jewish (albeit non-practicing). When the boys used to hound and bully me in junior high school they would hurl a bunch of nasty names at me, but I don't recall once being insulted for being Jewish. One of my best friends was Indian, and she too has no recollection of being victim to racism.

This is all great to a certain extent. But as I had mentioned, my experiences have been quite a bit different. And for so many of my friends, colleagues, and former classmates, that is also the case to the point where many have left Canada altogether.

The issues that we face is rarely in the form of violence (although on some occasions it actually has crossed that line) or even racist name calling (although again it has sometimes has crossed that line) but rather in the form of micro-aggressions. For example, my neighbours are an interracial couple (he's Pacific Islander while she is French Canadian) and the amount of stares and aggressive behaviour they face is ridiculous. Another annoying example is how people will talk to me about what is happening in this or that country that they think I am from and they'll behave as though I am somehow responsible for that. Or that our mothers must be abused and oppressed by our fathers or that we must be so relieved to be living in Canada or that we speak English so well, etc. Not to mention the lack of employment opportunities/advancement in spite of often having greater educational achievements and work experience.

When I was a student, I took a minority groups class and there was a very sharp division between the white students and those who came from a visible minority background. When the minority students spoke about the racism they faced in Canada, many of the white students were convinced that we were making it all up or that we imagined it. Because such things absolutely couldn't happen in Canada.

My city, Vancouver BC, is wonderfully multi-cultural and there a lot of festivals and events for all the different cultures. If you like different types of Asian foods, this city is paradise.

This is also the case in my home city although not to the extent of Vancouver or Toronto. In fact, many people that I have had issues with have absolutely no issues with different types of food. For some, liking different types of food is even a badge of some sort of honour. When it comes to the people though, their attitudes can sometimes change. As I mentioned in my previous post, acceptance of stuff like food, music, and clothes is a fairly shallow form of acceptance. When it comes to deeper aspects of cultures like beliefs, values, and ideologies, there can be some very subtle hatred. What's amusing though about the extreme anger and hostility is if you ever dare call people out on that (their attitude is how dare you say that, we are nothing but the most wonderful people in the world).

There is one Chinese-run grocery that caters to the Asians in the neigborhood, and one that caters to the Italians and other non-Asians. They are both awesome places to shop, and the staff at the one that caters to the Italians seem to love their jobs and are an absolute hoot!

Again, this is also the case where I live too. Lots of different specialty restaurants and stores. But the fact that they exist doesn't mean that all is well. And while celebrating the food, song, and dance aspect of different cultures is nice to a certain extent, it can give the illusion of wide acceptance as they still haven't reformed any of the power structures in our society. In fact, one could even argue that it nurtures parallel structures that absolutely cannot compete with the dominant ones. I also don't think it's too farfetched to say that instead of erasing differences completely, Canada has attempted to institutionalize these differences and manage them within a hierarchical scheme.

All that being said, do I generally think that Canada is a tolerant and accepting nation? Relatively speaking, I would say yes but with some reservations. And by all means not EVERYTHING has been absolutely negative. There are a ton of positives as others have mentioned. But for me, the positives don't eradicate the negatives. And I do think the negatives deserve to be mentioned, especially when the positives are harped on again and again.

 

[sap5]

Have people seen Salma Hayek's story regarding Harvey Weinstein? In the NYT: https://nyti.ms/2nXntXL

 

[Aussie Willy]

Have people seen Salma Hayek's story regarding Harvey Weinstein? In the NYT: https://nyti.ms/2nXntXL

Wow that is a pretty amazing story. Thanks for posting.

 

[Jenny]

Wow, what an incredible story, so well capturing the emotional nightmare of his victims. This of course jumped out at me:

I am inspired by those who had the courage to speak out, especially in a society that elected a president who has been accused of sexual harassment and assault by more than a dozen women and whom we have all heard make a statement about how a man in power can do anything he wants to women.

Well, not anymore.

I imagine this year's Oscars will be quite something.

 

[skatesindreams]

As long as Trump is supported; and in office, that statement will not be as true as it should be.

 

[VGThuy]

Have people seen Salma Hayek's story regarding Harvey Weinstein? In the NYT: https://nyti.ms/2nXntXL

That really was an amazing read. Hayek really put us into her shoes and what she was experiencing during that whole ordeal. It really is a heartbreaking read.

 

[sap5]

I'm glad she gave specifics and named names, especially of those who helped her. It also explains why Salma Hayek basically dropped off the scene after Frida.

 

[sap5]

That's great that your experience was/is different from mine. But I often find that general 'acceptance' is usually a shallow one. A friend of mine (his family is from India) once told me that Canadians who often express an interest in Indian culture will often talk about things like food, music, and the clothes that the women wear. But when it comes to deeper aspects of the culture like the various ideologies, values, and beliefs, there is often a lot of hatred, albeit expressed politely of course. Another friend of mine from Trinidad often says the same thing. And one thing that really got to her was all the stares she would often get, as if she was a museum curiosity. I can certainly identify with both of their complaints

I guess much of what I'm saying is anecdotal. And who knows, maybe it's all because of where I happen to live. But so many of my friends who are from minority backgrounds have left Canada altogether and have forewarned family members to stay away as they believe Canada's reputation as being very accepting and tolerant is propaganda that's been swallowed by almost everyone. And based on my personal experiences, I would have to agree to a certain extent.

The interesting thing about immigration is that most immigrants do it because they lack opportunity in their home country. And often, these opportunities are not there because of various ideologies, values, and beliefs that exist in the home country that prevent advancement (either on an individual or larger scale). While the new country may not be the utopia that people dream of, often there is an opportunity to make more of change and/or impact in the new country than exists in the old one. But of course there are always exceptions.

 

[Japanfan]

The issues that we face is rarely in the form of violence (although on some occasions it actually has crossed that line) or even racist name calling (although again it has sometimes has crossed that line) but rather in the form of micro-aggressions. For example, my neighbours are an interracial couple (he's Pacific Islander while she is French Canadian) and the amount of stares and aggressive behaviour they face is ridiculous. Another annoying example is how people will talk to me about what is happening in this or that country that they think I am from and they'll behave as though I am somehow responsible for that. Or that our mothers must be abused and oppressed by our fathers or that we must be so relieved to be living in Canada or that we speak English so well, etc. Not to mention the lack of employment opportunities/advancement in spite of often having greater educational achievements and work experience.

I'm sorry for your unpleasant experiences, gk_891. However, I'll point out that some refugees and immigrants are indeed relieved to be living here. Many of the Syrian refugees Canada has taken in over the past year have expressed exactly that sentiment.

And if you have come from somewhere where English isn't spoken, could it not be a compliment to be commended for your English? Of course if you have lived here most of your life and the comment is made on the basis of your being a visible minority, it would certainly be insulting.

And while celebrating the food, song, and dance aspect of different cultures is nice to a certain extent, it can give the illusion of wide acceptance as they still haven't reformed any of the power structures in our society. In fact, one could even argue that it nurtures parallel structures that absolutely cannot compete with the dominant ones. I also don't think it's too farfetched to say that instead of erasing differences completely, Canada has attempted to institutionalize these differences and manage them within a hierarchical scheme.

With this ITA. Inequities are embedded within society and institutions.

There are a ton of positives as others have mentioned. But for me, the positives don't eradicate the negatives. And I do think the negatives deserve to be mentioned, especially when the positives are harped on again and again.

Agreed.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Now it’s Tavis Smiley.

More allegations against Russell Simmons.

 

[gk_891]

I'm sorry for your unpleasant experiences, gk_891. However, I'll point out that some refugees and immigrants are indeed relieved to be living here. Many of the Syrian refugees Canada has taken in over the past year have expressed exactly that sentiment.

And if you have come from somewhere where English isn't spoken, could it not be a compliment to be commended for your English? Of course if you have lived here most of your life and the comment is made on the basis of your being a visible minority, it would certainly be insulting.



With this ITA. Inequities are embedded within society and institutions.



Agreed.

In my experiences, the expression of how I should be so grateful to be living here rather than over there is because over there is a giant cesspool of filthy garbage while Canada is nothing but pristine goodness. Or that I should feel grateful and privileged just be able to be in their regal presence. Something like that isn't exactly the worst thing in the world but it has become amazingly annoying, especially when it happens almost daily.

I was born and raised in Canada and English is the only language I happen to speak. So yes, I do find being told how good my English is to be fairly insulting. Something else I also happen to find insulting is constantly being stared at (it's even worse when they stare while pointing and whispering).

Incidents like the above are like paper cuts but when they happen again and again and again, you sometimes feel like you've slowly bled to death. Overtly violent incidents though feel like you're being bludgeoned.

 

[Japanfan]

In my experiences, the expression of how I should be so grateful to be living here rather than over there is because over there is a giant cesspool of filthy garbage while Canada is nothing but pristine goodness. Or that I should feel grateful and privileged just be able to be in their regal presence. Something like that isn't exactly the worst thing in the world but it has become amazingly annoying, especially when it happens almost daily.

What I was referring to was people who have escaped situations of conflict and danger, and/or extreme poverty, and/or refugee camps - hence the reference to Syrian refugees who have expressed gratitude about being here. I don't think any such situations are viewed as "a giant cesspool of filthy garbage".

There was a refugee from Kenya who crossed into Canada (Manitoba crossing) from the US in January (quite a few came from the US because they thought Trump would deport them) and lost his fingers making the crossing. In an interview, he indicated that in his view, his fingers were a price worth paying to get here.

So, we are really not talking about the same thing at all.

I understand that you are angry, and what you says indicates that you feel you have been demeaned. But honestly, I have never thought that being Canadian meant I had a "regal presence". To me that's just - and I think most Canadian-born people, at least the ones I know, would feel the same.

I will say though that I consider myself very fortunate to have been born Canadian.

I was born and raised in Canada and English is the only language I happen to speak. So yes, I do find being told how good my English is to be fairly insulting. Something else I also happen to find insulting is constantly being stared at (it's even worse when they stare while pointing and whispering).

I don't know where you live, but I certainly don't think that because someone is of color or a visible minority, that they were not born in Canada or don't speak English. I would think that is true of most people in large, urban centers, who will be acquainted with /friends with/neighbors with/work with people of color/visible minorities - some of whom were born here.

As I've indicated, I've observed a lot of racism against First Nations - other non majority groups, not so much. This is not to say that it does not exist and this is just in my city. I expect I'd encounter it much more in predominantly white, rural, less multi-cultural rural areas.

Also, in my view, most of us are racist to a certain extent, even if we don't express it. It's important to examine and recognize that.

Incidents like the above are like paper cuts but when they happen again and again and again, you sometimes feel like you've slowly bled to death. Overtly violent incidents though feel like you're being bludgeoned.

Again, sorry to hear about that.

I don't know where you live, and won't press you to share it.

 

[MsZem]

For those who would like to discuss Canada and the experiences of First Nations people and other minorities, perhaps you could start a separate thread? At this point it's not really related to the topic of this one.

Have people seen Salma Hayek's story regarding Harvey Weinstein? In the NYT: https://nyti.ms/2nXntXL

I'm glad she gave specifics and named names, especially of those who helped her. It also explains why Salma Hayek basically dropped off the scene after Frida.

It really is an entire generation of actresses who have been affected. So many talented women whose careers stalled because of Weinstein. It's heartbreaking.

 

[skatesindreams]

It's hard to believe that a woman would say this in 2017:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/congress-women-democrats-dress-kaptur/index.html

 

[Jenny]

I understand that you are angry, and what you says indicates that you feel you have been demeaned. But honestly, I have never thought that being Canadian meant I had a "regal presence". To me that's just - and I think most Canadian-born people, at least the ones I know, would feel the same.

Agreed. I am Canadian born, and like many, a child of immigrants, in my case from two different countries/cultures as my parents met after they immigrated to Canada with their families. I believe all stories should be heard and each person's experience respected, but I am frankly beginning to resent the implication in this discussion that all white Canadians act superior and that all visible and/or religious minorities are victims of racism. This kind of broad generalization is in itself racist.

For those who would like to discuss Canada and the experiences of First Nations people and other minorities, perhaps you could start a separate thread? At this point it's not really related to the topic of this one.

Agreed, and apologies for being part of the problem in wading into the discussion. I tried not to, but eventually felt compelled.

The issue of women being victimized in the workplace crosses all races and religions and cultures and that should be our continued focus here.

 

[VGThuy]

Morgan Spurlock, documentarian of Supersize Me, wrote a column about being part of the problem and his past sexual assaults, including rape and sexual harassment.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/docum...ts-to-sexual?utm_term=.ghEoLDnDkn#.juWZOMeMke

 

[Jenny]

Apparently a growing group of actresses are planning to wear black at the Golden Globes in protest and solidarity.

 

[Susan1]

Another "cooking" person bites the dust. "ABC has decided to quit airing the third season of The Great American Baking Show after harassment allegations have surfaced involving judge Johnny Iuzzini."

edited to add p.s. - insensitive me again, but that isn't fair to the people who are competing on the show. I know it's already been taped and they have won their prizes and everything, but they were probably anxious to show what they could do on network t.v. It's not like he would have harassed someone on the show on camera.

(And how many people even know who this judge is. It's not like he's Gordon Ramsey <geez, what if he's next, all of his shows will be cancelled too? He's not the nicest person. I'm sure someone will have a complaint. His restaurants will all have to close............)

I wonder what will be on tonight instead. There's nothing good on Thursday nights already.

 

[skatesindreams]

It's hard to believe that a woman would say this in 2017:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/congress-women-democrats-dress-kaptur/index.html

Response:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/opinions/victim-blaming-on-how-women-dress-drexler/index.html

 

[gk_891]

I will keep this post as my last one on Canadian social issues in this thread since it has indeed gone off topic.

@Japanfan That is sincerely great that for you being Canadian doesn't mean that you have a regal presence and that also goes for the Canadians that you happen to know. But that hasn't always been the case for myself and my friends and family whether one likes it or not (and BTW there is no need to apologize for anything since you've never done anything to me). What you say about yourself and the people you know will not necessarily hold true for all others. This kind of reminds me of the debates that our minority groups class got into. When some of the white students got into such a huff about how the racism other students have faced couldn't have happened, their reasoning was often because they themselves wouldn't ever do such a thing. The only real response to that was to ask why they thought we were talking specifically about you.

@Jenny I never once said that all white Canadians act superior and that all visible and/or religious minorities are victims of racism. But whether one likes it or not, some do and some have. As I've made clear in my posts, much of what I'm saying is based on my own personal experiences and therefore, this is my own partial knowledge. I never said that what I'm saying is universal. And besides, if you aren't able to see yourself reflected in what I'm saying about my negative experiences, then you don't have anything to be offended about as it wouldn't apply to you in any way.

 

[Jenny]

edited to add p.s. - insensitive me again, but that isn't fair to the people who are competing on the show. I know it's already been taped and they have won their prizes and everything, but they were probably anxious to show what they could do on network t.v. It's not like he would have harassed someone on the show on camera.

I don't think it's insensitive. While the focus is on the direct victims of these men, it is important to acknowledge the wider effects as well, including as you mention the opportunities lost for people who were involved in affected projects, and the jobs lost when production is cancelled or someone's staff loses their jobs along the way, and earnings lost when projects are not completed or never go to air.

And much as has been made about the fact that when men get away with this kind of behaviour, it opens the door for others to do the same. So yes, there is absolutely broader impact beyond the incidents in question and people directly involved.

 

[Japanfan]

It's not like he's Gordon Ramsey <geez, what if he's next, all of his shows will be cancelled too? He's not the nicest person. I'm sure someone will have a complaint. His restaurants will all have to close............)

I wouldn't assume that because a man isn't the nicest, he therefore sexually harasses women. Plenty of 'nice' men do it as well.

And being an ass**** is Gordon Ramsay's television persona, and it's bolstered his success tremendously. He may not be like that at all IRL.

 

[Peaches LaTour]

gk_891:

Thank you for your lovely response to my comments.
It is a source of great satisfaction & pride to me that our two nations have enjoyed an easy relationship with each other despite The Elephant & The Flea scenario ( of which my Canadian friends frequently remind me).
I agree with whomever suggested this topic should be a separate thread. It would be an interesting one for those of us North Americans & perhaps an educating one for our non- North American friends who can't tell us apart.

 

[once_upon]

Another "cooking" person bites the dust. "ABC has decided to quit airing the third season of The Great American Baking Show after harassment allegations have surfaced involving judge Johnny Iuzzini."

edited to add p.s. - insensitive me again, but that isn't fair to the people who are competing on the show. I know it's already been taped and they have won their prizes and everything, but they were probably anxious to show what they could do on network t.v. It's not like he would have harassed someone on the show on camera.

(And how many people even know who this judge is. It's not like he's Gordon Ramsey <geez, what if he's next, all of his shows will be cancelled too? He's not the nicest person. I'm sure someone will have a complaint. His restaurants will all have to close............)

I wonder what will be on tonight instead. There's nothing good on Thursday nights already.

Bolding by me. I wouldn't make a generalization statement like that. When filming, he made have done things that will get edited out later. So you might not see him doing anything on the televised edited show, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened on set. Sort of the boys will be boys mindset. I don't know that there was, but you don't know that there wasn't.
In your posts saying it has gone too far and what if someone makes an allegation when it didn't happen, is the mindset that I've seen on social media. What happened to court of law, and there is no physical proof, etc.
My response is that women have not been believed because of that mindset. I am assuming that there is more than allegations here - other women or men stating they experienced the same thing with the perp, or physical evidence as in the tapes of Trump's statements, or police reports. I don't think that organizations are going to fire without having investigated. But maybe that is too naive of me.

 

[Susan1]

I wouldn't assume that because a man isn't the nicest, he therefore sexually harasses women. Plenty of 'nice' men do it as well.

And being an ass**** is Gordon Ramsay's television persona, and it's bolstered his success tremendously. He may not be like that at all IRL.

He is different when they have the kids' shows. I always wondered if the adults on Hell's Kitchen have to agree to use the F word in every sentence to be on the show. If I worked in one of his restaurants or on the set, I would find that offensive and a hostile work environment.

But, do you know his whole history? They seem to be leveling allegations of things that happened 10-20 years ago. Although, they do seem to be focusing on Americans.

 

[Japanfan]

But, do you know his whole history?

No. But I'm not willing to conclude that he's committed sexual harassment. It's looking like the percentage of men who sexually harass women is higher than many people would have thought, but not all men harass.

Just as seemingly sensitive, gentle, progressive and soft-spoken men can abuse women, 'rougher' sorts of men can be respectful towards women.