U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[Rock2]

I don't know what to make of US pairs. So many teams I want to cheer for but it's a festival of mediocrity.

How I wanted Cain and Leduc to make a statement this year. They are by far the most watchable of the top teams. I have to think the KOR spot is going to the Knierims since no one else is really scoring.

I see D/F having the inside edge for the 2nd world's spot, which I have to think is lurking heavily in the minds of most teams. Pretty open as far as that goes though.

I'm disappointed in the trajectory of Deanna and Nate. Such a feel-good story that has descended into something with the air of resignation over a failed experiment. No more 4STh or sbs 3Z attempts that I'm seeing. Just honoring their commitment to each other and little more. I shed a single tear.

 

[Cleo1782]

I don't know what to make of US pairs. So many teams I want to cheer for but it's a festival of mediocrity.

How I wanted Cain and Leduc to make a statement this year. They are by far the most watchable of the top teams. I have to think the KOR spot is going to the Knierims since no one else is really scoring.

I see D/F having the inside edge for the 2nd world's spot, which I have to think is lurking heavily in the minds of most teams. Pretty open as far as that goes though.

I'm disappointed in the trajectory of Deanna and Nate. Such a feel-good story that has descended into something with the air of resignation over a failed experiment. No more 4STh or sbs 3Z attempts that I'm seeing. Just honoring their commitment to each other and little more. I shed a single tear.

I actually think S/B's trajectory is fine. They were splatting on the 4Sth and sbs 3Z attempts this year. I prefer they skate clean and build confidence. I have heard S/B intend to continue and are just going at their own rate. Yes, she is older for a skater, but she looks to be in great shape, so I'd say continue if you want. D/F seem like a near lock for the 2nd spot, but I look forward to K/O's debut before I make any predictions. When healthy, they tend to be very consistent. Also, I don't love C/L, but I would give them time to find their way too. Her height makes things difficult, but they are still very new together and need to find what works for them.

 

[olympic]

Just chiming in to say that I don’t get the constant failure at SBS jumps by SK/K. They have improved on twist (quad), throws (consistency), DS and lifts. Chris has improved in his general movement on the ice but the jumps escape them. I don’t get it.

But congrats to D/F and SD/B for landing SBA 3 jumps right in a row. Must be a US pairs record

 

[olympic]

I don't know what to make of US pairs. So many teams I want to cheer for but it's a festival of mediocrity.

How I wanted Cain and Leduc to make a statement this year. They are by far the most watchable of the top teams. I have to think the KOR spot is going to the Knierims since no one else is really scoring.

I see D/F having the inside edge for the 2nd world's spot, which I have to think is lurking heavily in the minds of most teams. Pretty open as far as that goes though.

I'm disappointed in the trajectory of Deanna and Nate. Such a feel-good story that has descended into something with the air of resignation over a failed experiment. No more 4STh or sbs 3Z attempts that I'm seeing. Just honoring their commitment to each other and little more. I shed a single tear.

TL said something interesting during the Olympic Channel broadcast: There is no pressure for US Pairs to really perform nationally because there is nothing or no one to displace the top teams, so they don’t have to perform as if their lives depend on it. IOW, that may mean the difference between fighting for an element or letting it go

 

[Spiralgraph]

^^^ I think that's a perceptive comment by Tara. Makes me wonder if the Knierems were not the heavy favorite for the lone Olympic spot, if they (and every other contending USA team) had to perform like their skating lives depended on it for the chance to go to the Olympics, would any of our teams skated better?

As it is right now it's almost resignation. Alexa and Chris might be the favorite by default, because they're adequate, not because they're competitive. It almost makes me want to stop liking American pairs altogether.

 

[wickedwitch]

C/T are looking good for the other spot at worlds right now. So I am sure they'll find some new and exciting way to screw up at Nats.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I'm disappointed in the trajectory of Deanna and Nate.

First I agree with all you said.

As far as Deanna and Nate I feel both of their programs (music choices, choreo all of it) are 10 steps backwards this year. meh.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

After 107/108 in free by D&F I will say I now would not count out C&T for Worlds. I have a feeling her < on her jump may continue....

C&L were hyped as these single skaters yet Ash is attending the < and << festival.

SK&K have loved them since day 1. They have gotten strong on most everything but those jumps have taken a major step backwards. Chris doesn't even try for a triple..he just goes and does a slanted double. And why is Alexa falling lately? Her jump has usually been strong... not that it matters anyway if Chris wont leave double territory.

Also I know her surgery and all but I hope they bring back the quad twist at some point.. Chris has the power. If they aint gonna do it I kinda.... don't want to hear about it any more.... Sorry, ANL is bringing tough love now. not sorry.

I also think their throws are the best in business.... surprised not to see more +2 and +3......

Their combo spin is world class.

Their SBS spin here was better, but no showstopper.

Too bad Im out of whiskey tonight.

 

[skatfan]

God, that was a depressing thing to see the US pairs skaters at Skate America. A kingdom for a SBS triple jump landed in either the short or the long! The rest of the world is doing them now, which is why we only have a single spot at the Olympics.

We have a coaching team in the US that two of the world-class pairs are using - John Zimmermann, Silvia Fontana and John Kerr - and demonstrating creativity and new music, while our US teams seem to caught in a time warp using all the old warhorse choices or tinkly piano music.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^^^ DEPRESSING!

We have no significant pairs coaching teams here either.. Well John Zimmerman and co but aint no USA team taking advantage of that......

But listen if you got Natalia Mishkutenok coaching in USA (Hey, TRUE story, she is) and all US pairs are like nah, we'll stay here with so and so then what can you do?

ANL is practicing tough love tonight. When there is only one spot to go to The Olys is pretty sad when all the teams are trying to outsplat each other as if they'd rather stay home and Netflix and Chill the night of Oly Pairs competition. LOL

 

[wickedwitch]

A fact that both depresses me and gives me hope: the US pairs on the JGP landed several more sbs triples than the seniors did despite not being allowed to attempt triples in the SP.

 

[her grace]

Body of Work Update

Tier 1
- 2018 U.S. Figure Skating Championships: TBD
- 2017 ISU Grand Prix Final: N/A
- 2017 ISU World Figure Skating Championships: Scimeca/Knierim 10th, Denney/Frazier DNQ to free skate

Tier 2
- 2017 Grand Prix Series Competitions: RC: Castelli/Tran 7th, SC: Denney/Frazier 7th; COC: Cain/LeDuc 6th, NHK: Scimeca/Knierim 5th, IDF: Castelli/Tran 6th, SA: Scimeca/Knierim 5th, Denney/Frazier 7th, Stellato/Bartholomay 8th
- 2017 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships: Scimeca/Knierim 6th, Denney/Frazier 8th, Cain/LeDuc 9th

Tier 3
- 2017 Challenger Series Events and other senior international competitions: [only listing top 5 finishes] USIC: Scimeca/Knierim 2nd, Liu/Johnson 3rd, Denney/Frazier 4th; Lombardia: Cain/LeDuc 4th; Autumn Classic: Castelli/Tran 4th; Warsaw Cup: Pfund/Santillan 5th
- 2017 U.S. Figure Skating Championships: Denney/Frazier 1st, Castelli/Tran 2nd, Cain/LeDuc 3rd, Stellato/Bartholomay 4th, Pfund/Santillan 5th, etc.
- 2017 World Junior Figure Skating Championships: Liu/Johnson 7th, Digerness/Neudecker 10th
- 2017 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final: N/A

 

[her grace]

How I wanted Cain and Leduc to make a statement this year.

You and USFS, both. After all the machinations to send Cain/LeDuc to events over the American silver medalists, and that's it? Castelli/Tran still have a higher SB this season (and last ) without any of the political support that Cain/LeDuc receive.

I see D/F having the inside edge for the 2nd world's spot, which I have to think is lurking heavily in the minds of most teams. Pretty open as far as that goes though.

I am moderately hopeful that the team that finishes the highest at nationals (in addition to S/K) will be chosen for Worlds. No one's body of work is that much more impressive than the other teams that the selection committee should override the results.

But listen if you got Natalia Mishkutenok coaching in USA (Hey, TRUE story, she is) and all US pairs are like nah, we'll stay here with so and so then what can you do?

AFAIK, Mishkutenok only recently began coaching pair teams in the U.S. She had been focused on coaching singles. She's got some good low-level pairs. It will be interesting to see if she can grow a pair program from the ground up or if higher-level pairs will move to be coached by her.

 

[Lacey]

A fact that both depresses me and gives me hope: the US pairs on the JGP landed several more sbs triples than the seniors did despite not being allowed to attempt triples in the SP.

I tried to say yesterday that the first half of the pairs groupings at SA looked like Juniors, including all 3 of ours. Embarrassing.

 

[Amantide]

Just chiming in to say that I don’t get the constant failure at SBS jumps by SK/K. They have improved on twist (quad), throws (consistency), DS and lifts. Chris has improved in his general movement on the ice but the jumps escape them. I don’t get it.

The thing I noticed about this two is that their SS have improved a lot this season. I think that's a very good thing.

 

[jdonavan]

God, that was a depressing thing to see the US pairs skaters at Skate America. A kingdom for a SBS triple jump landed in either the short or the long! The rest of the world is doing them now, which is why we only have a single spot at the Olympics.

We have a coaching team in the US that two of the world-class pairs are using - John Zimmermann, Silvia Fontana and John Kerr - and demonstrating creativity and new music, while our US teams seem to caught in a time warp using all the old warhorse choices or tinkly piano music.

S/B landed triples in both programs. Are you watching? Kerr doesn't even teach on the same side of Florida as Zimmerman's team anymore.
PS: what pair team has this coaching staff produced from scratch? It's very easy to take a team that has been around for the better part of a decade and "take them to the next level". Try building a team from the beginning like the other American coaches are doing and then the struggle is real.
Re: music: All US teams used contemporary music in at least one of their programs. Can WE ALL STOP PILING ON????????

 

[wickedwitch]

S/B landed triples in both programs. Are you watching?

The ones in the LP weren't clean.

 

[jdonavan]

The ones in the LP weren't clean.

The 3 toeloop was. They were the only American team to land a clean triple in both short and long. Check your protocol.

 

[Tesla]

S/B landed triples in both programs. Are you watching? Kerr doesn't even teach on the same side of Florida as Zimmerman's team anymore.
PS: what pair team has this coaching staff produced from scratch? It's very easy to take a team that has been around for the better part of a decade and "take them to the next level". Try building a team from the beginning like the other American coaches are doing and then the struggle is real.
Re: music: All US teams used contemporary music in at least one of their programs. Can WE ALL STOP PILING ON????????

The 3 toeloop was. They were the only American team to land a clean triple in both short and long. Check your protocol.

Thank you!

 

[topaz]

C/T are looking good for the other spot at worlds right now. So I am sure they'll find some new and exciting way to screw up at Nats.

I hope not because their overall skating is superior to any other US team. If they can land the jumps(which they have not been able) they would golden. I will say, that appears to be their only issue now. The throws and twist look much improved.

^^^^ DEPRESSING!

We have no significant pairs coaching teams here either.. Well John Zimmerman and co but aint no USA team taking advantage of that......

But listen if you got Natalia Mishkutenok coaching in USA (Hey, TRUE story, she is) and all US pairs are like nah, we'll stay here with so and so then what can you do?

ANL is practicing tough love tonight. When there is only one spot to go to The Olys is pretty sad when all the teams are trying to outsplat each other as if they'd rather stay home and Netflix and Chill the night of Oly Pairs competition. LOL

I see progress on the twist element and speed for D/F so I think Stefania and Rockne are improving their skills. It will interesting to see how they develop under their current coaching team.

If I was the USFSA I would send teams to Rockne and Zimmerman right now. The Zimmerman team pairs look much more prepared, polished, edgy, interesting. I think John is channeling his former coach(Tamara M) with the intersesting programs his teams put out. It's does help that John Kerr is an excellent choreographer and helps to bring out each teams personality. If C/T continue I would LOVE for them to go to Zimmerman.

ETA: C/L should switch and go Zimmerman or Brubaker too.

 

[oleada]

The ones in the LP weren't clean.

The 3 toeloop was. They were the only American team to land a clean triple in both short and long. Check your protocol.

No, the 3T+2T in the LP was not clean. They had - GOE on that element (-1.20, for a total of 4.40 on that element, to be precise). The 3T in the SP was clean, and it was the only clean SBS jump by any US pair in the GP series.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think SK/K have more than a couple of world class elements: I think that aside from jumps, their elements should be competitive (score-wise) with the top Pairs teams, and she is moving beautifully, among the best movement quality of the Pairs women, and she had stiff competition with Savchenko and Yu, whom I haven't seen in a performance that fluid and with such authority, at least on video.

I really wish that if they're not going to land SBS triples, that they'd thrown in a double-half loop-double combination towards the end of the program, followed by other singles in doubles across the entire rink, like they used to do back in the day. They should get credit for the first three jumps, no?

 

[Cleo1782]

I am surprised so many think S/B are not moving in the right direction. While the placement wasn't great, I thought this was considerably better than their previous outings this year. Like they are building to peak at Nationals.
S/K and D/F seem to be skating about the same or worse than they had at their first competition in Salt Lake City.

 

[jdonavan]

No, the 3T+2T in the LP was not clean. They had - GOE on that element (-1.20, for a total of 4.40 on that element, to be precise). The 3T in the SP was clean, and it was the only clean SBS jump by any US pair in the GP series.

Do you understand skating? Like even basic knowledge of the terminology? "Clean" means a fully rotated and landed jump which they completed. They lost GOE due to Nate's landing but still completed the full combination cleanly. Negative GOE does not constitute cleanliness. Today's lesson is now over.

 

[jdonavan]

I am surprised so many think S/B are not moving in the right direction. While the placement wasn't great, I thought this was considerably better than their previous outings this year. Like they are building to peak at Nationals.
S/K and D/F seem to be skating about the same or worse than they had at their first competition in Salt Lake City.

Thank you. It's a joke to me that people are wondering why Deanna after 18 months of skating pair (EIGHTEEN MONTHS) and 13 (?) years away from the sport isn't performing consistently the same content as Megan and Eric. Who, by the way, are not performing their own content consistently.

 

[oleada]

Do you understand skating? Like even basic knowledge of the terminology? "Clean" means a fully rotated and landed jump which they completed. They lost GOE due to Nate's landing but still completed the full combination cleanly. Negative GOE does not constitute cleanliness. Today's lesson is now over.

Hostile much?
"Clean" to me means a fully rotated jump with 0 or +GOE. A jump that bad errors in the landing isn't clean.

 

[jdonavan]

Hostile much?
"Clean" to me means a fully rotated jump with 0 or +GOE. A jump that bad errors in the landing isn't clean.

Hahaha...Nope not hostile, just honest. Your personal opinion on what "clean" means is not the definition of the ISU. I.E. So by your standards, when Nathan Chen lands a quad fully rotated but has neg GOE, you consider it underotated? Or cheated? Nope. Your wrong. GOE does not constitute cleanliness. Sylvia? Anyone back me up???

 

[oleada]

If Nathan lands a quad that's fully rotates then it's a quad that's not clean because it had an error. It doesn't make it under rotated or cheated. It's a flawed jump.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Hahaha...Nope not hostile, just honest. Your personal opinion on what "clean" means is not the definition of the ISU. I.E. So by your standards, when Nathan Chen lands a quad fully rotated but has neg GOE, you consider it underotated? Or cheated? Nope. Your wrong. GOE does not constitute cleanliness. Sylvia? Anyone back me up???

This assumes that "clean" is purely a determination by the technical panel, and that mandatory deductions for flaws by the judges that result in -GOE don't enter into the equation.

 

[jdonavan]

This assumes that "clean" is purely a determination by the technical panel, and that mandatory deductions for flaws by the judges that result in -GOE don't enter into the equation.

A clean jump is a fully rotated jump. GOE does not determine it, judges do not to determine it, the technical panel is the only voice that determines clean!!!