U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[Spiralgraph]

I don't think USA pairs are much worse than they used to be. With a few notable exceptions, our top teams have always been around eighth to twelfth in the world each year. The other teams world wide have improved while the American teams seem to have plateaued.

Maybe they don't have the ability. Also, to me sometimes their programs have been uninspiring and bland especially compared with programs from the Chinese and Germans. Having our top three pairs suffer severe injuries and illnesses almost at the same time set everyone back.

They are working hard so I've lowered my expectations and just hope to see small improvement from all our pair teams. Like wickedwitch wrote, no sense getting mad.

 

[Cleo1782]

I don't think USA pairs are much worse than they used to be. With a few notable exceptions, our top teams have always been around eighth to twelfth in the world each year. The other teams world wide have improved while the American teams seem to have plateaued.

Maybe they don't have the ability. Also, to me sometimes their programs have been uninspiring and bland especially compared with programs from the Chinese and Germans. Having our top three pairs suffer severe injuries and illnesses almost at the same time set everyone back.

They are working hard so I've lowered my expectations and just hope to see small improvement from all our pair teams. Like wickedwitch wrote, no sense getting mad.

US Pairs certainly aren't worse than they used to be. Outside from Jenni and Todd and Kyoko and her partners, we have always been middling the last 25 plus years. The problem with our current teams are the ones with the greatest ability have been hampered by severe injuries. While other teams were upping their technical ante our teams were out, not building momentum, just trying to get back where they were. Or we have promising new teams that got together way too late in the quad to make any impact yet.
I mean, obviously Sui and Han were able to come back, but look how Stobolva/Klimov have been struggling to get back to their 2014 shape due to chronic injuries and lack of training. That also has to be taken into consideration when looking at our pairs situation currently.

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks for your helpful observations @Spiralgraph, and @Cleo1782, which I noticed after I wrote the below in response to @Jojo13's and @angi's comments. I would like your post 100 times if I could @Cleo1782. I know you speak with some direct knowledge and firsthand experience. My response below is meant to make all of us stop and think and to take a look at the history, and to recognize that the current problems are more complicated than we can effectively or intelligently address on an Internet forum.

Although there was improvement seen with Haven and Brandon at Skate Canada, our pairs still are no where near competitive with the top teams. Rockne and Stephania along with Marina are doing their job. Our pair teams are just not hungry enough. They are not striving to be that number one team. They are not pushing themselves to get that one spot. They have caved. There seems to be a contentment with being mediocre. And this obviously trickles down from USFSA. What are they doing to make our pair teams better, stronger, and competitive? They are sending the message the Knieram’s are it.

@Jojo13 I'm saying this with no disrespect to the current US pairs teams (I actually like most of them) - but maybe it's not that they are not hungry enough but that they are just not good enough? The top teams at the moment are crazy good and what they are accomplishing technically and artistically might be out of reach for the current US pairs field. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't push to be the best that they can but realistically making the top 10 is the best this teams can accomplish even at their best showings imo. (and again I truly admire those teams for fighting injuries and pushing themselves)

I'm sorry, but have you guys lost your minds? Who are either of you to make such claims and suppositions???!

I'm surprised at you @Jojo13. Denney/Frazier deserve praise and support for how well they performed at Skate Canada, not snarky, speculative commentary about the state of U.S. pairs in general. There are no 'magic bullets' or 'magic wands' that will suddenly change the current state of affairs. How dare anyone question in even general terms the desire of individual U.S. pairs teams to improve and to be competitive! Can you please wrap your head around the fact that our U.S. teams have many challenges to face financially and in terms of the amount of training time they are able to afford. We have beaten this subject to death plenty of times! I've posted in this thread about the lessons of history, but I don't see anyone interested in engaging in any intelligent discussion and examination. We could take the topic to a general thread that reflects on the differences in pairs development among various countries. Is there any interest in doing that? Regardless, please stop with casting aspersions on U.S. pairs skaters.

Yes, USFS have never been fully invested in developing their pairs teams. But even in general, the U.S. is not like other countries. There are a vast number of separate skating clubs around the country, and as far as I can see, USFS has generally been content over the years to allow good skaters to rise to the top on their own. Then there is a certain small amount of financial support and backing the cream of the crop eventually receive to supplement their training. That kind of system obviously will be lacking in many significant ways when going up against the more government-backed, strategic development-focused systems of China and Russia. Definitely, the U.S. is behind the times in terms of finding new and different ways to support skaters and to encourage training program collaborations among coaches and skating clubs. There are no easy answers. But the big issue is that there doesn't appear to be anyone even looking seriously at all aspects of the current situation to try and come up with solutions. Skate Canada probably engages in better pairs development, plus they are more astute politically than USFS. And SC is also fortunate to have a more recent history and legacy of success in pairs, which makes a significant difference in terms of rep status and bragging rights.

Meanwhile, the desire and fire of U.S. athletes is the very least thing that should be criticized or blamed! And please stop with snide innuendo against the Knierims. They don't deserve anyone blaming them for being the favored U.S. team at the moment. It's easy for all of us fans to sling around insults and to question skaters' motivation and preparedness. But for the most part, what do we really know about the nitty-gritty stuff these skaters have to deal with on a daily basis? Each skater is faced with an individual set of problems and obstacles, so we should stop generalizing about their hunger and desire. And also stop trying to denigrate U.S. skaters @angi with your wildly irresponsible claim that they are not good enough. D/F are clearly trying to rebuild their strengths and momentum after Haven's devastating injury and time-consuming rehabilitation. That takes time, and it takes even more time to regain rep and status amidst the rampant political-based scoring system. Plus, many skaters are also hampered by few opportunities to even compete! If they can't compete more often, it becomes even more difficult to be competitive when they do receive opportunities. What's so difficult to understand about that reality???

As I detailed in an earlier post in this thread, the history of North American pairs in general is something that every NA pairs fan should examine before spouting off. Canadian pairs went 19 years off World and Olympic podiums in the 1960s and 1970s (at a time when U.S. pairs teams were at least taking bronze and silver on occasion during those years). Then the Canadians came storming back with the success of Barb Underhill and Paul Martini, and the eventual successes of Brasseur/Eisler, Sale/Pelletier, et al. on the World and Olympic stage. Therefore Canada obviously has more recent success in pairs than the U.S., but both countries have an interesting and notable past history of success in pairs. It should be a point of pride for all U.S. pairs teams to know that the U.S. was the first NA country to have a pairs team become World champions (after WWII amidst the social, economic and cultural devastation that many European countries were facing). It was the talent of Karol and Peter Kennedy that allowed them to rise to the top. And then Canadian pairs began to achieve even greater prominence and a more illustrious legacy with the multiple decorated pairs successes of Barbara Wagner and Robert Paul. Study the history for further names and chronology. The point is that talented teams come and go.

Right now, the U.S. is in the midst of a 16-year Worlds and Olympics podium drought in pairs. And Canada previously suffered through a 19-year drought. It's not clear exactly why. Obviously, there are many factors involved, but part of the podium drought faced by many countries in pairs clearly has to do with the Russian pairs dominance that came after the revolutionary impact of Belousova/Protopopov, which changed the discipline.

Again, please stop blaming the athletes and stop thinking in the measly, limited frame of 'what just happened five minutes ago.' We all need to better understand the sport's complex, multi-layered history, as well as the intricacies and conundrums of current realities. When we don't have a deeper grounding of knowledge and understanding, our frustrated generalizing is not only depressing and inaccurate, it's also completely aimless, repetitive, hurtful and unhelpful.

 

[Cleo1782]

Thanks for your helpful observations @Spiralgraph, and @Cleo1782, which I noticed after I wrote the below in response to @Jojo13's and @angi's comments. I would like your post 100 times if I could @Cleo1782, and I know you speak with some knowledge and firsthand experience. My response below is meant to make all of us stop and think and to take a look at the history, and to recognize that the current problems are more complicated than we can effectively or intelligently address on an Internet forum.





I'm sorry, but have you guys lost your minds? Who are either of you to make such claims and suppositions???!

I'm surprised at you @Jojo13. Denney/Frazier deserve praise and support for how well they performed at Skate Canada, not snarky, speculative commentary about the state of U.S. pairs in general. There are no 'magic bullets' or 'magic wands' that will suddenly change the current state of affairs. How dare anyone question in even general terms the desire of individual U.S. pairs teams to improve and to be competitive! Can you please wrap your head around the fact that our U.S. teams have many challenges to face financially and in terms of the amount of training time they are able to afford. We have beaten this subject to death plenty of times! I've posted in this thread about the lessons of history, but I don't see anyone interested in engaging in any intelligent discussion and examination. We could take the topic to a general thread that reflects on the differences in pairs development among various countries. Is there any interest in doing that? Regardless, please stop with casting aspersions on U.S. pairs skaters.

Yes, USFS have never been fully invested in developing their pairs teams. But even in general, the U.S. is not like other countries. There are a vast number of separate skating clubs around the country, and as far as I can see, USFS has generally been content over the years to allow good skaters to rise to the top on their own. Then there is a certain small amount of financial support and backing the cream of the crop eventually receive to supplement their training. That kind of system obviously will be lacking in many significant ways when going up against the more government-backed, strategic development-focused systems of China and Russia. Definitely, the U.S. is behind the times in terms of finding new and different ways to support skaters and to encourage training program collaborations among coaches and skating clubs. There are no easy answers. But the big issue is that there doesn't appear to be anyone even looking seriously at all aspects of the current situation to try and come up with solutions. Skate Canada probably engages in better pairs development, plus they are more astute politically than USFS. And SC is also fortunate to have a more recent history and legacy of success in pairs, which makes a significant difference in terms of rep status and bragging rights.

Meanwhile, the desire and fire of U.S. athletes is the very least thing that should be criticized or blamed! And please stop with snide innuendo against the Knierims. They don't deserve anyone blaming them for being the favored U.S. team at the moment. It's easy for all of us fans to sling around insults and to question skaters' motivation and preparedness. But for the most part, what do we really know about the nitty-gritty stuff these skaters have to deal with on a daily basis? Each skater is faced with an individual set of problems and obstacles, so we should stop generalizing about their hunger and desire. And also stop trying to denigrate U.S. skaters @angi with your wildly irresponsible claim that they are not good enough. D/F are clearly trying to rebuild their strengths and momentum after Haven's devastating injury and time-consuming rehabilitation. That takes time, and it takes even more time to regain rep and status amidst the rampant political-based scoring system. Plus, many skaters are also hampered by few opportunities to even compete! If they can't compete more often, it becomes even more difficult to be competitive when they do receive opportunities. What's so difficult to understand about that reality???

As I detailed in an earlier post in this thread, the history of North American pairs in general is something that every NA pairs fan should examine before spouting off. Canadian pairs went 19 years off World and Olympic podium in the 1960s and 1970s (at a time when U.S. pairs teams were at least taking bronze and silver on occasion during those years). Then the Canadians came storming back with the success of Barb Underhill and Paul Martini, and the eventual successes of Brasseur/Eisler, Sale/Pelletier, et al. on the World and Olympic stage. Therefore Canada obviously has more recent success in pairs than the U.S., but both countries have an interesting and notable past history of success in pairs. It should be a point of pride for all U.S. pairs teams to know that the U.S. was the first NA country to have a pairs team become World champions (after WWII amidst the social, economic and cultural devastation that many European countries were facing). It was the talent of Karol and Peter Kennedy that allowed them to rise to the top. And then Canadian pairs began to achieve even greater prominence and a more illustrious legacy with the multiple decorated pairs successes of Barbara Wagner and Robert Paul. Study the history for further names and chronology. The point is that talented teams come and go.

Right now, the U.S. is in the midst of a 16-year Worlds and Olympics drought in pairs. And Canada previously suffered through a 19-year drought. It's not clear exactly why. Obviously, there are many factors involved, but part of the podium drought faced by many countries in pairs clearly has to do with the Russian pairs dominance that came after the revolutionary impact of Belousova/Protopopov, which changed the discipline.

Again, please stop blaming the athletes and stop thinking in the measly, limited frame of 'what just happened five minutes ago.' We all need to better understand the sport's complex, multi-layered history, as well as the intricacies and conundrums of current realities. When we don't have a deeper grounding of knowledge and understanding, our frustrated generalizing is not only depressing and inaccurate, it's also completely aimless, repetitive, hurtful and unhelpful.

We also just had some unfortunate setbacks. What if Keauna and Rockne were able to stay together? What if Caydee Denney was able to skate as long as Vanessa James or John/Caitlin stayed together? What if Marissa and Simon could have worked past their differences and made it 4 more years or even Felicia and Nate? We have had world class potential, the circumstances just never have quite worked out.

 

[angi]

@aftershocks Sorry but you need to take a chill pill.
1. This is a public forum and we are all allowed to speak our minds without you going bonkers over it. And none of us were disrespectful so what exactly do you want? You disagree which is fine but so what?
2. I wasn't comparing countries, I was talking about the current US pairs field and in no point was I blaming anyone with anything. And what is so widely inappropriate in what I wrote? That you don't approve of it?

US teams have been plagued with horrible injuries and are fighting to get back out there and this is truly admirable and I enjoy watching them. But comparing them to the top skaters (and there are plenty), some are even younger teams than some of the US pairs, their technique on several elements and their inconsistency is noticeable. While Stolbova/Klimov are also fighting to get back, their technique on most elements (other than the twist) is still top notch.

The reality is that not all teams can be top teams, this is such a difficult sport and some just remain in the middle pack. I'm not saying that this is the case with all the US teams but acknowledging it is not demeaning the skaters. They are still beautiful to watch and fierce for never stop fighting, but yes, they might remain top 8-12 until they retire - and guess what? it doesn't make them any less good.

 

[Jojo13]

I was not putting Haven and Brandon’s performance down at Skate Canada. I was simply saying that with one spot available you would think that the US teams would be hungry. That they would want to up their game and push the envelope. Possibly move to Zimmerman since you see what he has done for Vanessa and Morgan. It would be nice to see USFSA support and push US pairs so our teams can be competitive. But instead they are focused on one team only.

 

[Sylvia]

It would be nice to see USFSA support and push US pairs so our teams can be competitive. But instead they are focused on one team only.

If USFS was "focused on one team only," then why would they bother sending 6 pairs to a second Challenger competition?

 

[aftershocks]

Addendum to my earlier post:
BTW, I include some of my own past casual and aimless fan comments in the same category I mentioned in my earlier post. So there's no need for the defensive reactions to what I said. Can we try to stop taking everything we say in the heat of the moment personally? I do try to take pause on occasion and reflect. I try to ask questions and I study the history of the sport in order to gain some helpful insights.

Meanwhile, let us all stop questioning the ability and desire of figure skating athletes. Regarding current setbacks for some of our U.S. skaters, it does pay to lower our expectations, and also to appreciate bright spots and positives. It may be hard to do, but sometimes we probably should detach ourselves from worrying about judges' scores, standings, World and Olympic team spots, and just try to appreciate the efforts our athletes are putting in. I truly enjoy watching Denney/Frazier. In fact, they are an example of a young team who have faced so many ups-and-downs during their career. They won junior worlds after pairing again post an earlier split that happened due to a family relocation that distanced them when they were teenagers. They were also roller skating pairs champions together in their youth. I think it's so admirable and unusual how they have stayed together through thick and thin. That is truly something to celebrate.

Haven's injury could have separated D/F; their showing at last year's Worlds could have separated them. Brandon astutely and responsibly used the time that Haven was rehabilitating to improve his presentation skills and aesthetic qualities. And fortunately at some very low and difficult moments, D/F obviously received tremendous encouragement and support from coaches, family, friends, USFS, and some members of the skating community. But apparently not very much support and understanding from the majority of skating fans. I was in D/F's corner all the way and I defended them against some really petty slams, but probably some of my comments and wondering about Haven's fitness in the aftermath of Worlds were also not helpful.

So, no matter what D/F are able to achieve going forward, I'm going to fully appreciate them every time I have the opportunity to see them skate. And I support all U.S. pairs teams -- I give a shout out to Tarah and Danny, in the hopes that Tarah is doing much better. No matter how far D/F and other U.S. pairs teams are individually able to strive, we should all appreciate this moment in time where we are at now (not just in terms of trying to enjoy figure skating, but also in our own personal lives). The moment of striving against a sea of troubles is what builds strength and character. It's sometimes hard to understand the concept, but it's always the journey and not the destination that matters and carries the most significance.

 

[kwanfan1818]

For the second Worlds spot?

But when it comes down to it, the second Worlds spot is meaningless for the expected TE fight for bronze with China -- S/M, if they skate, J/C, and possibly M/H could come between S/H and the US team, and S/H could also beat whatever Russian team skates the short and D/R, for a seven-pt advantage for China after the Pairs SP alone -- the Knierims have been the strongest and most successful US team, and the Olympics are first and the main focus, especially when TV is factored in.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ To what post are you referencing @kwanfan1818? I personally am not talking about the specifics of the upcoming Olympics and Worlds. I completely agree with what you are saying in specific terms regarding upcoming competitive events. I think @angi's and @Jojo13's comments were addressing what's happening now, but with a broad and inaccurate brush that needs to be broken down into specifics, and with an understanding that it helps to examine history sometimes rather than blaming the athletes whilst generalizing about, and anguishing over the current moment.

@aftershocks Sorry but you need to take a chill pill.
1. This is a public forum and we are all allowed to speak our minds without you going bonkers over it. And none of us were disrespectful so what exactly do you want? You disagree which is fine but so what?
2. I wasn't comparing countries, I was talking about the current US pairs field and in no point was I blaming anyone with anything. And what is so widely inappropriate in what I wrote? That you don't approve of it?

US teams have been plagued with horrible injuries and are fighting to get back out there and this is truly admirable and I enjoy watching them. But comparing them to the top skaters (and there are plenty), some are even younger teams than some of the US pairs, their technique on several elements and their inconsistency is noticeable. While Stolbova/Klimov are also fighting to get back, their technique on most elements (other than the twist) is still top notch.

The reality is that not all teams can be top teams, this is such a difficult sport and some just remain in the middle pack. I'm not saying that this is the case with all the US teams but acknowledging it is not demeaning the skaters. They are still beautiful to watch and fierce for never stop fighting, but yes, they might remain top 8-12 until they retire - and guess what? it doesn't make them any less good.

@angi, I appreciate that FSU allows members to argue and debate. We all have varying reactions to what we each say in the heat of the moment, often without thinking it through. Go back and look at what you said initially, which can be in part perceived as being insensitive. I can see that your tone was not intended to be completely disrespectful. But sometimes we need to stop leading with our frustration that is based on medal count and standings in a competitive event that happened yesterday. Go back and look at what I said in detail, rather than dismissing the importance of examining history to understand the current state of the sport and how that impacts the way each ISU member country has developed their programs.

As I said, we can take the topic of pairs development internationally to a separate thread in Trash. It might be interesting to discuss the cultural, social, political and economic aspects that have impacted each country, in particular those countries who are currently dominating in pairs, and those countries who even in a position to have competitive pairs participating at the top senior level. Part of the issue is as I said that talent comes and goes, and some talent that is good never gets the chance to improve to a highly competitive level. And then there is the hidden talent that never gets realized or developed due to a lack of exposure to the sport, a lack of financial resources, and a dearth of training & development opportunities, as well as extremely limited and politically restrictive competitive opportunities.

 

[Jojo13]

If USFS was "focused on one team only," then why would they bother sending 6 pairs to a second Challenger competition?

Sending these other teams to Challenger competitions is nice but not the answer. USFS has to support the training and development in preparation for the competitions. If they did not send them to these events, then they would compete at Skate Detroit, sectionals, and nationals. There are not a large amount of events hosted in the United States that push pairs to participate in.

 

[Sylvia]

USFS has to support the training and development in preparation for the competitions.

How, in your opinion, should USFS try to accomplish this? Please share some specific suggestions.

 

[Jojo13]

How, in your opinion, should USFS try to accomplish this? Please share some specific suggestions.

The camp they host is a good start. But not all teams even attend this camp. Working with the teams for a couple of days is not going to help develop their skills. Having one 20 minute lesson with Frank to work on jumps is not going to get our teams to suddenly land them in competition. They need ongoing training and more individualized help throughout the season.

I am sure these teams are constantly working on these things but it is expensive for the skaters and their families to absorb the costs completely. Bring in specialists more regularly to work on building each teams strengths and developing their weaknesses.

When USFS recognizes that an individual skater could use help in a specific area they encourage them to work with someone else. This needs to be done with our pair teams. Everyone needs to work together.

 

[aftershocks]

@angi and @Jojo13, please understand that I am not targeting you nor actually disagreeing with some of what you said. I just disagree with some of the specifics of what you said, and with the tone of some of your earlier comments. This can be an emotional and a difficult topic to communicate well on an Internet forum. We need deeper analysis, interest and energy being devoted to understanding the complexities. But I do not think we will ever get that from the current old-fashioned people who lead the ISU. The ISU needs fresh blood and forward outside-the-box thinking. What seems to be happening is that they too are not examining nor fully understanding the sport's history, much less are they including coaches and skaters in the conversation about how to resolve some of figure skating's endemic problems and growing pains.

It is definitely true, and some fans keep harping on this point again and again in aimless fashion without breaking it down for more significant understanding: U.S. pairs are perceived as not having the aesthetic qualities, technical strengths and skating skills of top pairs teams. Of course that's true in broad terms, but you need to get down to the reasons why. And then first and foremost stop attributing everything that's good and worthy in pairs to the Russians and Chinese! Understand the current global influences that have been impacting and changing the sport, especially in the aftermath of the Sabena air crash of 1961, which led to international coaches coming to the U.S. in greater numbers. The Chinese teams are great why? They are great largely because of Yao Bin's passionate dedication and determination, and also because of government-funded programs. Most of all because Yao Bin developed a system based on learning as much as he could from the West and combining it with the strengths of Chinese traditions of acrobatic athleticism and artistry. Notice that Chinese teams are reliant upon Western musical influence and choreographers. But it is the melding of East and West, along with government backing and cultural traditions of excellence that has vaulted Chinese pairs to the top in the past 25 to 30 years.

What I am really tired of is the assumption that U.S. pairs teams totally suck. The energy and atheticism that is happening now in the entire pairs discipline takes much of its spark from the legacy of North American teams, which includes both U.S. and Canadian influence! Please understand that fact. Do I even need to elaborate on the Western cultural influences surrounding choreography and music selection which is enriching the Russian aesthetic influence on pairs?

These intricacies and connections are hard to break down in a soundbite post. But we have only to look at what happened with the explosion of U.S. success in ice dance to realize that it was the melding of Russian coaching techniques with the athleticism, energy and resources available in the U.S. that led to the current U.S. and Canadian dominance in ice dance. And now we have a more recent trend with the Haguenauer/ Dubreuil/ Lauzon fusion which is revolutionizing ice dance (combining European and North American traditions and influences).

 

[angi]

@aftershocks We are all good
I agree with some parts of what you are saying and disagree with some others. I don't think for a moment that US pairs suck, Castelli/Tran have one of my favorite FS of the season and D/F have a very cheesy FS but the way she especially commits to it bought me when I caught it in the practice stream.
I do agree with one of the messages here that said that the US teams have a bit of an outdated technique and programs - and this is the main thing I think they need to solve.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep, we are talking at cross purposes on an Internet forum. Of course there is and has been an assumption that U.S. pairs do not skate like the Russians. Even some Russians do not skate like the Russians. We really have to stop generalizing in order to be clear on what we are talking about. The problems are not going to be solved on here of course. But for USFS: good communication, historic research, fresh insights and collaborative engagement to incrementally attain specific goals is what's needed. And, if we as fans don't start by understanding what we are talking about, then we too will get nowhere in terms of communicating well. We end up talking in circles in endless threads. Obviously, we aren't on the front lines anyway unless we are participant coaches or skaters. There are in fact some fans here who are insiders with past or current experience in the sport. Let's engage politely and with open minds, but above all let's be supportive of the skaters and be clear on exactly what we are talking about.

It is the historic ballet and theatre traditions in Russia that Belousova/Protopopov brought to the sport in the 1960s that revolutionized pairs skating. But B/P didn't bring the Russian ballet aesthetic to a vacuum. They simply added to what U.S. and Canadian pairs teams had brought to the sport in terms of athleticism during the post-war years. Where's Uncle Dick when we need him?

U.S. pairs teams need to hold their heads up high with pride, and they should make an effort to learn about the rich U.S. pairs legacy that does exist, no matter how far in the past. USFS needs to engage more with past skaters who are willing to contribute in ways that they can. Why not bring in Tai and Randy to give a keynote address at Champs Camp sometimes, instead of only focusing on bringing in past champion singles skaters? @Jojo13, I would expect that eventually more teams will be seeking out the John Zimmerman camp. I apologize for my own earlier impatience in suggesting that more U.S. teams should get John Z's help. We can't expect teams to immediately leave their current situation, and obviously some of them don't need to pursue a different coach. Plus, Zimmerman is obviously not going to be able to accept every team that might come calling anyway. It's collaborative efforts, as well as exhaustive examination and understanding of the problems U.S. pairs teams face generally and individually, that will eventually lead to effective solutions.

As fans, we need to support our athletes better instead of constantly criticizing them (again I am just as guilty of focusing on critiques rather than on support and solutions). The problems are complex and will likely require more dedicated fan engagement on the local level for anything to begin to change. Maybe we can have more enlightened and friendly conversation here that forces us to examine exactly what we are upset about. We should be more specific about our assumptions, and our likes and dislikes. Why do we perceive U.S. skaters as not being the best? IMO, they are largely hampered by a combination of a lack of top coaching in pairs, a lack of resources for dedicated training, problems with how USFS is structured, and USFS being left behind the times with the rapid changes the sport is currently undergoing. I don't think it's a lack of talent. Much of the talent that is out there goes unrecognized and undeveloped for many reasons. The skaters that are in the system suffer from neglect and disadvantage on a number of levels. And thus they simply do the best they can to go as far as they can, which at the moment is not very far for the vast majority.

Plus, the USFS has historically been inept in understanding how to benefit their skaters via skillful political influence, and I'm not talking about scoring corruption. I'm talking about being skillful with athlete promotion, and with wielding power and influence within the ISU, in terms of the various committees that are making decisions affecting rules, judging panel selections and other projects and legislation.

Furthermore, I think there should be more emphasis on ballet training and a more concerted and organized effort to study the varying training techniques. Clubs and coaching teams should be brought together in clinics that focus on particular problems that can begin to be strategically addressed. Right now a number of efforts to resolve our competitive weaknesses in pairs have been happening in a piecemeal fashion. There were some separate pairs camps this summer, and some teams have received help from international coaches in summer workshops. I agree that these efforts are welcome and needed, but they are a drop in the ocean and they aren't necessarily addressing long term problems that include recruiting young people to the sport, and developing better programs and resources at the local level.

There need to be training scholarships offered, as well as more competitive opportunities provided at all levels. Committees should be studying the problem surrounding so many constant team breakups which is a huge part of the inability of U.S. pairs teams to improve. How can they improve when so many don't stay together long enough? Some breakups are inevitable, but then there should be mechanisms in place to provide resources to skaters which might lessen the impact of breakups and possibly help resolve the issues that lead to breakups. So many splits happening means that skaters are constantly in the process of starting over, and therefore momentum and development is constantly being interrupted and delayed.

Right now, as @Cleo1782 has pointed out, and as we all know but seem to forget: there are a number of talented U.S. teams who have been seriously hampered in their progress due to recent injury and health setbacks, added to financial and training disadvantages. Our skaters also have to battle against dismissive perceptions and reputation-based politics every time they do get the opportunity to compete. Several new teams, including S-D/B and C/L are trying mightily to enhance and advance their skill repertoire in their sophomore year, which is a big ask complicated by growing pains. We need to be patient and supportive, rather than grumpy and accusatory.

Progress won't happen overnight, but nothing will happen if heads are kept rolling in the sand, and we just continue to gripe aimlessly on fan forums.

 

[skatfan]

John Zimmerman never took from Irina Rodnina. Oppegard and then Moskvina.

Oops I made an assumption. Still a pretty good pedigree though!

 

[Cleo1782]

Oops I made an assumption. Still a pretty good pedigree though!

No worries. I was just giving Peter the credit he was due. Stiegler/stiegler did train under rodnina for some of their career so its an easy mistake.

 

[umbuma]

I was not putting Haven and Brandon’s performance down at Skate Canada. I was simply saying that with one spot available you would think that the US teams would be hungry. That they would want to up their game and push the envelope. Possibly move to Zimmerman since you see what he has done for Vanessa and Morgan. It would be nice to see USFSA support and push US pairs so our teams can be competitive. But instead they are focused on one team only.

If he is so good why doesn't he have any young (Juvenile - Junior ) teams. If you put to big power house skaters together like he has with the French team of course they will be good. And the Canadians and Germans have been together for how long? And who is competing in China for pairs? I think they put Haven and Brandon in the hardest grand prix. And put the other teams in easier grand prix to make them look better.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ What are you trying to say exactly? It's really counterproductive to make silly claims that add absolutely nothing intelligent to the discussion. But oh well, distraction, trolling, short attention spans, miscommunication, and soundbite speak are so rampant on Internet forums.

 

[aftershocks]

I agree with some parts of what you are saying and disagree with some others.

If you would like to be specific about what parts you are disagreeing with me on, we can go to pm or start a discussion in Trash regarding the evolution of the pairs discipline and the variant pairs development programs and techniques internationally. Let's think about breaking it down more clearly re why U.S. pairs are lacking. Part of the problem in the way the sport is covered is that since Dick Button's retirement, there is no well-developed knowledge among fs commentators regarding the sport's history, the evolution of the pairs discipline, and how those factors connect with what's happening now in pairs. Maybe we can try to have some intelligent conversation and get past all the snobby attitudes that exist regarding what constitutes excellence in pairs.

As far as I can see, James/Cipres going to John Zimmerman and finding the missing ingredients that have helped them break through in an exciting way, has to a significant degree invigorated the past two seasons in the pairs discipline. Of course, J/C went to John Z as a team with some notable success. But they needed more to dig themselves out of the second tier. And they found it with Zimmerman/ Kerr/ Fontana/ Barrett. I think everything J/C had done in their career to that point (with training in Russia, and receiving help from a variety of coaches) had prepared them to take off with John Z and crew. Meagan Duhamel did not ditch a long time coach to take part-time from John Zimmerman's camp this season for no reason. It's highly unusual that Julie Marcotte agreed to work in collaboration with John Kerr when she usually tends to work alone.

Anyone who is looking closely, can see that a number of teams are pulling inspiration from J/C's style and are even copying some of their moves (which happens all time in figure skating, so it's a compliment).

I think Haven and Brandon were fine at Skate Canada. They achieved some goals that hopefully they can build upon in their next outing. They seem more comfortable with their sp. And it was wonderful to see them land their sbs jumps in the sp. They experienced a bit more hesitation and some resultant issues in the fp that they will need to work on. But they are looking a lot better. They will need to keep working and steadily try to build their confidence, no matter the judges' heavy political and rep-based assessments. That just comes with the territory in this sport.

 

[aftershocks]

Checking out the tough pairs line-up at Cup of China, I'm realistic that it will be difficult for Ash and Timothy to place higher than second to last, at least on paper. There's always the possibility they can skate their best and cleanly to advance over more favored skaters in the second tier. I will watch with just trying to enjoy all the skaters and cheer on C/L. It will be cool if they've been able to make more improvements to their programs.

 

[Cleo1782]

Checking out the tough pairs line-up at Cup of China, I'm realistic that it will be difficult for Ash and Timothy to place higher than second to last, at least on paper. There's always the possibility they can skate their best and cleanly to advance over more favored skaters in the second tier. I will watch with just trying to enjoy all the skaters and cheer on C/L. It will be cool if they've been able to make more improvements to their programs.

All the pair lineups in the GP are pretty tough due to the fewer spots and just an overall high quality in the pairs field. I don't think any US pair will do well in placement on the GP, I think it's important how well they skate at those competitions, moreso than placement.

 

[aftershocks]

All the pair lineups in the GP are pretty tough due to the fewer spots and just an overall high quality in the pairs field. I don't think any US pair will do well in placement on the GP, I think it's important how well they skate at those competitions, moreso than placement.

Yes, indeed. Detach from worrying about placements.

 

[Cleo1782]

Yes, indeed. Detach from worrying about placements.

IMO, at this point it is the pair that can consistently compete a good short and long consistently for the team event because that is where we need our pair team. The individual event is too much of a long shot regardless.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Sure I agree with you @Cleo1782. But at this point, unlike a lot of other fans and skaters, etc., I'm not even thinking about the Olympics. In fact, I'm not that into the whole hype of the Olympics season and the over-commercialization that the Games have evolved into. I feel it's too bad that the Olympics are held up by the sport and innocently swallowed whole by young skaters as the be-all, end-all, must-have fairytale dream.

Personally, as a skating fan and a fan of some other sports, I've seen enough to know that sport is not a fairytale. Neither is life, no matter how much our culture raises us to believe in fairytales. Sport and competition and life is really more about believing in ourselves and being dedicated to never giving up, and above all learning that 'it's the journey that counts, not the destination.' I said that a long time ago as a fan of Michelle Kwan and of figure skating, and those words which I'm sure I read or heard previously, somehow directly, indirectly or independently got adopted by some fans and skaters (including MK). But maybe the meaning behind the pithy wisdom is not completely understood. We tend to still all be hung up on what TPTB in this confounding, antiquated, impossible sport try to sell us every season, even as they consistently short-change fans and skaters. I keep coming back for some reason, for some moments of pure pleasure and joy I find in watching and sometimes being unexpectedly rewarded with performances where the skaters give it their all, baring their hearts and souls, and in the process uplifting my spirit.

That's really what the Olympics should be about too, and not about the medal counts and the politics and politicization. The broadcast fluff can be fun, but the superficial hype (and some broadcasters' lack of knowledge about fs) is so annoying.

But OTOH, yeah sure I like watching the figure skating most of all at the Winter Olympics, and it would be quite nice if the U.S. team could get back on the podium again. I don't think the skaters should feel bad or feel like they 'let down' their country or themselves if it doesn't happen. I'll definitely be rooting for them, but it is the journey that matters and what's gained along the way.

 

[Cleo1782]

^^ Sure I agree with you @Cleo1782. But at this point, unlike a lot of other fans and skaters, etc., I'm not even thinking about the Olympics. In fact, I'm not that into the whole hype of the Olympics season and the over-commercialization that the Games have evolved into. I feel it's too bad that the Olympics are held up by the sport and innocently swallowed whole by young skaters as the be-all, end-all, must-have fairytale dream.

Personally, as a skating fan and a fan of some other sports, I've seen enough to know that sport is not a fairytale. Neither is life, no matter how much our culture raises us to believe in fairytales. Sport and competition and life is really more about believing in ourselves and being dedicated to never giving up, and above all learning that 'it's the journey that counts, not the destination.' I said that a long time ago as a fan of Michelle Kwan and of figure skating, and those words which I'm sure I read or heard previously, somehow directly, indirectly or independently got adopted by some fans and skaters (including MK). But maybe the meaning behind the pithy wisdom is not completely understood. We tend to still all be hung up on what TPTB in this confounding, antiquated, impossible sport try to sell us every season, even as they consistently short-change fans and skaters. I keep coming back for some reason, for some moments of pure pleasure and joy I find in watching and sometimes being unexpectedly rewarded with performances where the skaters give it their all, baring their hearts and souls, and in the process uplifting my spirit.

That's really what the Olympics should be about too, and not about the medal counts and the politics and politicization. The broadcast fluff can be fun, but the superficial hype (and some broadcasters' lack of knowledge about fs) is so annoying.

But OTOH, yeah sure I like watching the figure skating most of all at the Winter Olympics, and it would be quite nice if the U.S. team could get back on the podium again. I don't think the skaters should feel bad or feel like they 'let down' their country or themselves if it doesn't happen. I'll definitely be rooting for them, but it is the journey that matters and what's gained along the way.

Oh of course, you have great points, but what the USFS is looking for is a consistent team to help the team event. Love of pairs aside, that what it will come down to as far as Olympic selection. Beyond is a whole other story.. It's not about rebuilding this year. That is what we should focus on in the next quad.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ True @Cleo1782, but I'm detaching myself from any worries over Olympics selections. I know who I want for the men, but hey, it's not up to me. For pairs, I just hope everyone is able to put out their absolute best during U.S. Nationals. The point is for everyone to just call up some grit, desire and competitiveness and not worry about the outcome. I don't really think USFS is a fed that's shown they know how to make the best judgements, regardless. So we shall see.

I know it's early yet, but what's your best guess? Likely the Knierims and they have good programs, but we never know. It will be something if all teams can land their sbs jumps.

 

[Cleo1782]

^^ True @Cleo1782, but I'm detaching myself from any worries over Olympics selections. I know who I want for the men, but hey, it's not up to me. For pairs, I just hope everyone is able to put out their absolute best during U.S. Nationals. The point is for everyone to just call up some grit, desire and competitiveness and not worry about the outcome. I don't really think USFS is a fed that's shown they know how to make the best judgements, regardless. So we shall see.

I know it's early yet, but what's your best guess? Likely the Knierims and they have good programs, but we never know. It will be something if all teams can land their sbs jumps.

Alexa and Chris would most likely have to implode to not get the spot. I think Tarah and Danny are being smart just focusing on Nationals and recovery instead of showing a subpar performance. I honestly think only a very ready clean K/O doing Golden Spin (if they want to) and a great nationals are the only threat and that's an outside shot. Unless Nathan and Deanna start putting real clean programs together I think it's too risky to put C/T, and D/F or other teams in the team event because all these teams have nice pair elements but their sbs are so inconsistent. C/L are the only ones who tend to land sbs but mostly with UR calls and lesser pair elements (being so new), so I would put them in the mix. Every other team has shown little ability to land sbs consistently at all and we just need a solid not stellar score in the TE. Not to sound harsh because D/F have wonderful pair skating, but as of now she is not ready or close to doing a second sbs including the double axel. I honestly would say go with what Nats results are except if it's close with Alexa and Chris and they somehow don't win. If they are awful I would go with the team that looks mostly likely to skate clean.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I agree with you @Cleo1782, but D/F seem to be gaining more confidence, and Haven doesn't seem to be wearing the knee wrap anymore. Hopefully, she's built up more strength, but they need to steadily build their confidence. They were previously in general okay on sbs jumps, but not always consistent early on in their career. D/F's strengths are their lifts, and their throws used to be fairly consistent too. But after Haven's comeback from surgery, their throws and sbs jumps have definitely required rebuilding. Still, the Knierims really have had serious problems with landing their sbs jumps too, no matter how much that tends to get overshadowed by their other strengths.

Tarah and Danny were very consistent on sbs jumps prior to Tarah's injuries, but they have needed to work on speed and aesthetic refinement. I don't like saying that last because I think it's so snobby, but we know the status quo think. I like K/O's spark and athleticism, and they are very well matched. Good luck to them.

It would really be fun to see Deanna and Nathan skate a blinder at Nats. Give the judges and USFS something to think about eh! C/T can't go to the Olympics, but hopefully they will find themselves prepared and gritty enough to make noise, and as they said, have USFS wishing they could send them. I'm interested to see whether Ashley can fix those URs and throw landings. C/L do have promise. It's always steady as they go for everyone. I'd love to see everyone shine at U.S. Nationals and just be happy with what they put out, including C/S, P/S, S/R, et al.