Shooting in Las Vegas

[AxelAnnie]

Welll, we have different information - The Guardian

So how many thousands of people have you killed with your body?

Are you talking about abortion?

 

[Angelskates]

Where the government allegedly stages the attack, to upset the citizens and thus justify the goverment doing something like taking everyone's guns away.

I don't get it. Which side would be claiming this this time? I have seen a few FB posts saying this is a false flag attack...but Trump would never stage this because he wants to keep guns because the NRA gives him money, right?

 

[overedge]

Welll, we have different information - The Guardian

What part of this is different from all the other information disproving your point?

 

[overedge]

I don't get it. Which side would be claiming this this time? I have seen a few FB posts saying this is a false flag attack...but Trump would never stage this because he wants to keep guns because the NRA gives him money, right?

Usually it's the gun nuts who are claiming this nonsense. They seem to perpetually feel that their "rights" are going to be taken away by someone or something, no matter who's in power or what the facts are.

 

[Tinami Amori]

What is a "false flag" attack?

Old pirate trick. Take down jolly roger, pull up the flag that matches the country of the approaching ship, in order to keep the ship's guard down, to lure them as near as possible and attack from closer proximity.

Now days the term is used to describe a military, or a political, or a social "set up". Make the enemy/opposition look bad and blamed for something they did not do: Solder from country X puts on a uniform of Soldier from country Y, then burns down a village pretending to be from country Y, etc.

"Which false flag" in this situation? few theories are floating around... none proven. The concert was as you know a Country Music Concert, such are usually attended by "conservative crowds". There is a perception "Country Music = Conservative Audience". So the theories are "the Conservatives themselves set this up to show an attack on Conservatives". The other theory is "Liberals set it up to raise again a gun control issue", then "ISIS claims" appeared in on the internet", etc.... Bad time to play games...

 

[Angelskates]

So people who think this is a false flag attack think it's fake or thinks it's a set up? Do they think people died?

 

[Tinami Amori]

So people who think this is a false flag attack think it's fake or thinks it's a set up? Do they think people died?

Everybody knows people died, the fact of the attack is not false. Now there are following speculations:

- was the gunman acting alone? there are theories that more than one person is involved because the set up seems too complicated to be arranged and executed by a single person.
- then there are theories about his motives: political, personal, etc.
- and if it is political, then what is his affiliation...
- and if there is an affiliation, then was he straight forward about it which side he is on, did he pretend to be "the opposition"...

There was an incident earlier today, a Liberal/Democrat lawyer, a company employee made a comment on Facebook that he has no sympathy for the dead because they are most likely Republicans (since it is Country Music event).
He was fired. But that started an open discussion "now that we know they maybe Republicans, maybe it is partisan"....

There were a lot of "death to Republicans and Trump" messages from celebrities, which openly promoted an idea of killing Trump and Republicans...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/30/21/40F2112900000578-4556566-image-m-102_1496175205573.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/11/10/15/3A38F7B800000578-3923346-image-a-18_1478793417611.jpg

so now this factor is considered in this shooting.... and Republicans will not give up guns, when Liberals are after their lives.

"I’m actually not even sympathetic bc country music fans often are Republican gun toters."
http://www.snopes.com/2017/10/02/cbs-fires-lawyer-facebook-comments-las-vegas-shooting/

 

[ballettmaus]

Just as the state has said that I have no control over a woman's body other than my own, the state has said that people can own guns.
You have a right to do what you want with your body and I have a right to own a gun. They are the same. You simply trivialize my right over yours.

That wasn't my point. My point was that you are equating someone's body with owning a thing. They are not even remotely comparable. Owning a gun is about owning something that one pays for. Restricting that right is about public safety.

Abortion is about someone's personal body. Restricting it is about telling someone else what they have to do with their own body. It's about someone's personal life. Owning a gun is not only about someone's personal life but, as I said, it's about public safety.

 

[overedge]

So people who think this is a false flag attack think it's fake or thinks it's a set up? Do they think people died?

They think it is all a set-up, and that everyone involved in what you see on TV are a bunch of actors who are being paid off to not blab about what really "happened". So, no, they don't think anyone really died or got hurt.

For the Sandy Hook deniers, the "evidence" of this is that the parents didn't look sad enough in talking about their dead kids, and that the pictures that were shown of each kid didn't look like the same kid from year to year. Also there were no photos released of the bodies or the crime scene so we don't know that anyone really died

 

[Angelskates]

They think it is all a set-up, and that everyone involved in what you see on TV are a bunch of actors who are being paid off to not blab about what really "happened". So, no, they don't think anyone really died or got hurt.

For the Sandy Hook deniers, the "evidence" of this is that the parents didn't look sad enough in talking about their dead kids, and that the pictures that were shown of each kid didn't look like the same kid from year to year. Also there were no photos released of the bodies or the crime scene so we don't know that anyone really died

I know there are people who think Port Arthur was staged as well

 

[overedge]

I know there are people who think Port Arthur was staged as well

There are valid reasons to be suspicious of what the government is doing in secret. But I don't think governments expending the effort to stage mass shootings (and making everyone involved be quiet about it forever after) is one of those reasons.

 

[Vash01]

CNN is interviewing the wife of a victim. Truly heart breaking. She is very courageous. Must be in such a shock but she is able to speak and remember her husband.

 

[Japanfan]

2. Gun Control is not a Pro-Life Issue. How many cars/trucks in the last 12 months have plowed people down in the last year. Way too many by terrorists, drunks, etc.

Guns kill people, and some people like this mass murderer buy guys with the intention of killing people. So gun control is therefore a pro-life issue.

Your automobile analogy isn't a strong one, first because cars are a necessity to most people, and because way more people have them than have guns. Second, people have to earn the right to drive an automobile by learning, practicing and passing a test. It's much easier to buy a gun in the US than it is to get a driver's license (presuming that the process is the same in the US as in Canada, which I'm not 100% sure about)

And the motivation is very different for getting a car versus a gun. I do not own a gun, have never owned one, and don't know anyone who owns one.

However, I have experienced one memorable moment in which I understood that the reason most of us don't/shouldn't own a gun is because we might use them. In that moment I was so enraged at a man who had put my friend in harm's way that I lost my ability to reason. If I'd had a gun, I think I would have used it.

 

[ballettmaus]

The statistic ends in 2014 but in the US, vehicle deaths have steadily declined while deaths by firearm have risen. In 21 states, there were more firearm than vehicle deaths. With all of the recent shootings, I have a hard time believing that anything has changed. Also, more people own cars than firearms. http://www.vpc.org/regulating-the-gun-industry/gun-deaths-compared-to-motor-vehicle-deaths/

Interesting note: firearms remain the only consumer product which is not health and safety regulated.

(Should we maybe take this discussion into the PI gun thread?)

 

[Vash01]

The shooter's girlfriend has arrived at LAX. CNN showed her in a wheel chair, accompanied by the FBI. They have not announced if she will go to Vegas soon. I hope she can shed some light on why this happened.

 

[agalisgv]

Just to clarify, the shooter used an automatic weapon, and those have been banned in the US since WWII IIUC.

Most often after a mass shooting there are cries for gun control, but almost always what is proposed wouldn't have altered the shooter in question from obtaining a gun.

Personally I think gun control makes sense, but any law that could withstand constitutional muster will likely have little effect on mass shootings. It could help with suicides potentially, though.

 

[snoopy]

This says weapons found were not automatic. They were semiautomatic rifles modified with legal technology to simulate auto fire power.

Also says buying machine guns is legal in Nevada when done in accordance with federal law. (Old guns).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...achine-guns-different/?utm_term=.c73d465b0cf8

 

[Angelskates]

Most often after a mass shooting there are cries for gun control, but almost always what is proposed wouldn't have altered the shooter in question from obtaining a gun.

Maybe he would have got it, yes, but he may have given it back. Australia just finished another gun amnesty where more than 26,000 guns were handed in no questions asked for sale with private (legal) buyers/dealers. According to Victoria Police, "In addition to seeing thousands of firearms surrendered and registered to existing licence holders, the amnesty has unearthed some rare and well-kept firearms which have been donated to local museums, the Victorian RSL and the Australian War Memorial." In Western Australia 1242 guns were surrendered, including 186 shotguns, 860 rifles, 196 handguns and 65,618 rounds of ammunition, and also an assortment of high-powered weapons and guns that had been modified.

Previously, Australia's gun buy back scheme (where the government compensated people who surrendered their guns, again no questions asked) was also successful in getting guns off the streets and out of homes where they may not be safely stored. The gun used in the Lindt Café siege was unregistered, and resulted in calls for another amnesty or buy back. There were military grade weapons handed in as well as shot guns. There are ways to reduce the number of guns, legal and illegal, in the US, but again, I don't believe they'll even be done, especially nationally. Without border checks, state laws are useless because people will just cross borders and buy where they can (or get their guns illegally).

There are many ways to implement gun control without banning all guns. Providing incentives like amnesty or buy backs results in less guns on the street. IMO this can only be a positive thing, even if it prevents just one accidental death or one suicide, but I don't see it ever happening in the US.

 

[snoopy]

I don't really see much call to ban hand guns - the type that would prevent suicides. The calls are to ban semiautomatic weapons. And really not even that. Most proposed legislation just wants waiting periods and closing the gun show loopholes and registration.

Also, here is a conservative blogger calling for the banning of bump stocks - the legal technology used by the gunman to make his semi rifle fire like an automatic. Of course he also recommended buying yours now before you can't buy them anymore.

https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2017/10/03/bye-bye-bump-stocks/

 

[Angelskates]

I don't really see much call to ban hand guns - the type that would prevent suicides. The calls are to ban semiautomatic weapons. And really not even that. Most proposed legislation just wants waiting periods and closing the gun show loopholes and registration.

Banning handguns, or changing the laws to get and keep them, may also reduce accidental killings and "general" homicide, DV etc. Most accidental killings of children occur with hand guns. But I think the term "gun control" many seem to think means "ban all guns" = "taking away rights" when that is just not true.

 

[skatingguy]

There are valid reasons to be suspicious of what the government is doing in secret. But I don't think governments expending the effort to stage mass shootings (and making everyone involved be quiet about it forever after) is one of those reasons.

To a point, but I think if you watch the news any time over the past, oh, ever, you'll see stories that have been leaked by some government source. Some of these leaks are intentional - basic PR to soften the ground before an official announcement- but plenty are not. If anything on this scale was being done it would have leaked. There is not a group of people that large that can keep a secret - it pretty much discredits all the conspiracy theories in one fell swoop.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I feel like people aren't quite hitting on the intention of the Second Amendment: Madison wanted citizens to have the opportunity to fight back against a tyrannical federal government. Born out of opposition to proposed regulation and control of militias by the federal government (one of many federalist vs. anti-federalist arguments). Gun control in many ways does go against the heart of that debate, so I get why some people react so negatively to gun control legislation.

There are lots of good rationales for gun control, but I find the "They only meant muskets! They couldn't even imagine!" argument really weak. First because of the intention of Amendment, but second it assumes that the Founding Fathers were Neanderthals. Really? You don't think they could envision a future with more advanced weaponry? They lived in a time when weaponry did advance. How does Science Fiction work? It's like the people who claim the pyramids could only be erected with the help of aliens, because previous eras of people were just too simple.

 

[rfisher]

The gun sales industry hates it when a Republican is in the WH or holds a majority in Congress. Sales go down. Gun enthusiasts like it and vote for those candidates in part because prices on ammo, in particular, drop as the industry tries to compensate. But, when a candidate like HRC is running or there's a mass shooting, sales boom because the social media message is that "they're going to take our guns!" "Buy now" "Stock up!" It happens over and over and over. You can look back at the sales data.

If I were going to pick a conspiracy theory to latch onto, it's not that the government stages these events in order to take away guns, it's that the gun/ammo industry organized them. (not that I think they're that organized). But, that's who always benefits from this. What is funny is the fact that the people buying the ammo are being played by the industry and don't see it. My youngest brother first commented about how happy he was that the price on ammo fell after Trump was elected. Then I found a study which looked at the sales data for guns/ammo and sure enough there is a correlation. So, the only industry who benefits from this sort of tragedy is the gun/ammo industry. It's hard to keep the meme going that "they" are coming to take your guns away when the NRA funded politicians control Congress and the WH. They love it when people get on the media and start demanding gun control. Plays right into their marketing agenda.

All my family, except me, owns guns of various types. Most hunt. I do think gun regulation is required, but the same old circle of argument isn't working and people need to approach this differently. And be as smart about it as the gun/ammo industry has been.

 

[PRlady]

The statistic ends in 2014 but in the US, vehicle deaths have steadily declined while deaths by firearm have risen. In 21 states, there were more firearm than vehicle deaths. With all of the recent shootings, I have a hard time believing that anything has changed. Also, more people own cars than firearms. http://www.vpc.org/regulating-the-gun-industry/gun-deaths-compared-to-motor-vehicle-deaths/

Interesting note: firearms remain the only consumer product which is not health and safety regulated.

(Should we maybe take this discussion into the PI gun thread?)

Don't forget that under the Bush administration a law was passed forbidding government-funded research into guns and public health and safety. So the CDC statistics I could cite in the late 90s conveniently don't exist.

Also, ATF is a deliberately underfunded agency; most gun stores don't see an agent from one decade to the next.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

The worst conspiracy theorists are the ones too chicken sh*t to even really theorize. It's all "hmm, something doesn't add up..." or "the truth will come out eventually". They're provaceturs who play the line, so they can conveniently go "I didn't specifically say that, did I?" when challenged.

 

[skatesindreams]

The shooter's girlfriend has arrived at LAX. CNN showed her in a wheel chair, accompanied by the FBI. They have not announced if she will go to Vegas soon. I hope she can shed some light on why this happened.

Update:

Did he send her away?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/04/us/marilou-danley-vegas-shooting-paddock/index.html

Paddock worked for the US Government, in a variety of jobs:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/04/us/[email protected]&hubRefSrc=permalink

 

[puglover]

As sick as I am about this I am very doubtful any significant changes will be made in my lifetime. If Obama couldn't get any changes after Sandy Hook when the victims were 6 year olds, I don't see any common sense prevailing. I am Canadian but married to an American and have 3 married children and 11 grandchildren that are also American. Based on the statistics that I saw - Canadians stand a 1 in 215,000 chance of being a victim of gun violence - Americans stand a 1 in 28,000 chance. I really don't see differences in movies, video games, etc. between the tastes of the Canadian/American public but I do think there is more of a "gun" mentality in the U.S. I have a SIL who grew up in Wyoming and his Dad is a conspiracy "nutter". He stockpiles guns to engage in a future conflict when the U.S. government will go bad and I guess it will be every man for himself. He also pays no taxes and has a much younger wife from the Philippines with whom he has had five young children. Two years ago my younger daughter and I cared for my SIL and daughter's two boys while they vacationed and their 5 year old offered to show us his Dad's guns. We both reacted as if he said they had a python upstairs. This precious little boy went on to assure us that we were adults and it was okay for us to play with his Dad's guns. I know said SIL will not be happy if anything is even proposed to threaten his 2nd amendment rights. Of course I know people at home who live on rural property and own 22's and also a few who shoot for sport.

 

[snoopy]

This is a mother issue. The men are never going to change this. The parallel is drunk driving. Cops used to let people off all the time back in the day for DUIs. MADD changed things. When the mothers have had enough, they will act.

The mothers haven't had enough yet.

 

[skatesindreams]

How many more family members will they have to lose?

 

[TOADS]

With all that has been going for the past three days, I think a big thank you and lots of hugs to the trauma nurses, doctors, EMT, and other rescue personnel for the absolutely fabulous job they did in this nightmare.

Sometimes when the shit is hitting the fan, we forget the real heros!