U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[Jammers]

the U.S ladies have dominated the pewter at worlds this Olympic cycle Gold in 2015 and 2016, and now Karen Chen in 2017

Don't forget Wagner in 2012.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I'm hoping Gracie took a long hard look at this event. The fact that Daleman who hasn't won much of anything in her career now has a World medal and she doesn't should tell her something. I said for over three years all Gracie had to do was go out there and land her jumps confidently and she would have won most any event including the World title. It's not like Daleman is some kind of amazing artist either and the judges were always ready to give Gracie the title.

Gracie does have to land her jumps. But the thing Daleman has that Gracie does not, is that Daleman was totally engaged in the music. Her joy came right through.

 

[VGThuy]

Perhaps today's results can finally put an end to all the Karen Chen bashing, which got a bit ugly after 4CC. I wish this could serve as a lesson to prevent future premature (or any) bashing of young skaters who seem to offend some fans one way or another, but that would be asking for too much, isn't it?

Hear hear.

 

[Jammers]

Gracie does have to land her jumps. But the thing Daleman has that Gracie does not, is that Daleman was totally engaged in the music. Her joy came right through.

I would not say she is anymore artistic then Gracie though. It's mostly the jumps in her programs.

 

[bardtoob]

It was really hard after 4CC to tell if Chen was going to be the Bobek or the Kwan a la 1994 Worlds.

 

[Willin]

This definitely put a lot more confidence in Karen Chen from me. She's sublime to watch when she's on!

It also says something that on a day when pretty much all the skaters but the top 3 and Mai Mihara had a bad day with lots of mistakes, the US ladies managed to keep the mistakes minor. In the past I recall the US ladies being a lot messier on messy days. Like, none of their skates were absolute disasters - just shaky with a some small mistakes. Even Karen Chen, who fell, had a great skate except for those two last jumps.

 

[VGThuy]

Right but all the comments went beyond that on the skating forums. IMO, U.S. skating fans on the internet really react and exaggerate the awfulness of their skaters and their abilities to perform when they have a bad performance (when bad performances aren't so uncommon among the top ladies not Med) and have real knee-jerk reactions. While that's understandable, I really thought so many of the reactions were seriously OTT. Like they will root for a skater when they show one good performance and then dump them when another U.S. skater has one good performance even if that skater was just as inconsistent. And the merry-go-round continues.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I would not say she is anymore artistic then Gracie though. It's mostly the jumps in her programs.

I can agree with that, she just looks more engaged than Gracie, and that makes me enjoy watching.

 

[bardtoob]

Right but all the comments went beyond that on the skating forums. IMO, U.S. skating fans on the internet really react and exaggerate the awfulness of their skaters and their abilities to perform when they have a bad performance (when bad performances aren't so uncommon among the top ladies not Med) and have real knee-jerk reactions. While that's understandable, I really thought so many of the reactions were seriously OTT. Like they will root for a skater when they show one good performance and then dump them when another U.S. skater has one good performance even if that skater was just as inconsistent. And the merry-go-round continues.

It is probably because people do not regularly see Karen yet. Gold and Nagasu have been getting a lot of sympathy lately.

 

[Bellanca]

KAREN CHEN -- the skater that many people said had no business winning a U.S.A. National title or being at Worlds just showed her detractors where they could shove their ‘just drop out, already’ opinions and comments.
KAREN CHEN!

 

[Mayra]

It also says something that on a day when pretty much all the skaters but the top 3 and Mai Mihara had a bad day with lots of mistakes, the US ladies managed to keep the mistakes minor. In the past I recall the US ladies being a lot messier on messy days. Like, none of their skates were absolute disasters - just shaky with a some small mistakes. Even Karen Chen, who fell, had a great skate except for those two last jumps.

I'm happy for the US, but I can't help thinking the goal post has moved so far back for US ladies that having a "decent" skate is a celebration.

US ladies need to stop settling for decent skates and spots that land most of them in the middle of the pack. It's the Olympics and I get it, but man I wish they'd fight for something higher. JMO

 

[kwanfan1818]

Does Mariah Bell get two GP next season?

Assuming no rule change, Top 12 singles at prior Worlds are guaranteed two spot each.

 

[bardtoob]

Assuming no rule change, Top 12 singles at prior Worlds are guaranteed two spot each.

That's great news!

 

[VGThuy]

I'm happy for the US, but I can't help thinking the goal post has moved so far back for US ladies that having a "decent" skate is a celebration.

US ladies need to stop settling for decent skates and spots that land most of them in the middle of the pack. It's the Olympics and I get it, but man I wish they'd fight for something higher. JMO

I don't think it's for lack of trying on their part. Some times, other competitors are just better whether it be due to their skills, mental fortitude, better foundations in their basics, etc. Having a decent skate is the only thing they can really control.

Gracie has all the talent in the world to consistently challenge for medals, and despite all the work she has put into improving her competitive game, it's not quite there. Ashley has real technical issues that comes down to not having the best basic foundation when she learned to skate. She's worked really hard to improve her skating, but there's only so much she can do and she just fell back into those old habits many thought she kicked. Karen still needs consistency but this was her first full international senior year where she made it past Nationals. Maybe we'll see new confidence in her but she does have technical issues to fix like that 3Toe on her 3/3 combo, and she could work on gaming the system a bit more to maximize her TES. Polina had the mental toughness and fortitude of a champion, but her growth spurt and jumping technique plus the way she looks labored in her skating when transitioning in-between her elements and her choreographed poses held her back.

Interesting to note that this is the second time Mariah Bell beat Ashley internationally in the LP this season. Her inability to hit her SP has held her back at every competition this season it seems.

 

[Mayra]

I don't think it's for lack of trying on their part. Some times, other competitors are just better whether it be due to their skills, mental fortitude, better foundations in their basics, etc. Having a decent skate is the only thing they can really control.

I don't buy that. All of the above can be improved upon and changed. If you had told me last year Gabby Daleman would be a World bronze medalist today, I wouldn't have believed you. If anyone is proof the above doesn't always have to apply it's her.

 

[mag]

I don't buy that. All of the above can be improved upon and changed. If you had told me last year Gabby Daleman would be a World bronze medalist today, I wouldn't have believed you. If anyone is proof the above doesn't always have to apply it's her.

Sorry, this makes no sense. Just because Gabby placed 3rd doesn't mean others weren't trying or working just as hard. The two are not connected. I suspect Gabby has worked her a$$ off all year to get to this point. She has also managed to not get injured, not get sick, not have an off day this week, etc etc. I am not a huge fan of Ashley's skating, but I have absolutely no doubt she is doing everything possible to get to the top of the podium. Wanting it badly (just ask Hillary) is not enough (and is sometimes counter productive.)

As I have posted before, every skater at Worlds was/is aiming to have the very best skates they possible can. Sometimes things fall into place and you have a skate where nothing can go wrong, other times, well, not so much. It is like that in practice and it is like that in competition. There is a lot you can do to maximize your chances, but at the end of the day you can't control everything. Suggest that the US Women are setting the bar too low is just, IMHO, insulting to these skaters.

 

[Yazmeen]

I don't think it's for lack of trying on their part. Some times, other competitors are just better whether it be due to their skills, mental fortitude, better foundations in their basics, etc. Having a decent skate is the only thing they can really control.

Gracie has all the talent in the world to consistently challenge for medals, and despite all the work she has put into improving her competitive game, it's not quite there. Ashley has real technical issues that comes down to not having the best basic foundation when she learned to skate. She's worked really hard to improve her skating, but there's only so much she can do and she just fell back into those old habits many thought she kicked. Karen still needs consistency but this was her first full international senior year where she made it past Nationals. Maybe we'll see new confidence in her but she does have technical issues to fix like that 3Toe on her 3/3 combo, and she could work on gaming the system a bit more to maximize her TES. Polina had the mental toughness and fortitude of a champion, but her growth spurt and jumping technique plus the way she looks labored in her skating when transitioning in-between her elements and her choreographed poses held her back.

Interesting to note that this is the second time Mariah Bell beat Ashley internationally in the LP this season. Her inability to hit her SP has held her back at every competition this season it seems.

Just a comment that this was a phenomenal analysis overall. Dead on.

And I will tell you that Ashley's suboptimal basic foundation really hits me personally. My first coach's way of teaching me as an adult was "well, is she can basically perform the skill, let's just keep going." I'm paying for that now with my new ice dance skates; my dance coach has started me over from the beginning, and those skates have exposed every weakness in my basics. Every so often I look at Damian, who is an amazing coach with a serious knowledge of physics and body motion and ask "Why didn't I learn this years ago/the first time around." It's tough, but at least I'm learning it now. I can't imagine what it's like having suboptimal basics as an elite skater.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't buy that. All of the above can be improved upon and changed. If you had told me last year Gabby Daleman would be a World bronze medalist today, I wouldn't have believed you. If anyone is proof the above doesn't always have to apply it's her.

So what, you think these ladies are training for hours upon hours every day for probably 5-6 days a week, with their family's or their own financial investment just to do decent at best? They are obviously trying to be the best and want to win. Some times things don't work out no matter how much you want it and how hard you work and how much your coach strategizes and works to improve your skating.

 

[Teamgracie]

I can agree with that, she just looks more engaged than Gracie, and that makes me enjoy watching.

Can we just leave Gracie alone for once, she didn't even skate and we have to make slight digs at her?

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't buy that. All of the above can be improved upon and changed. If you had told me last year Gabby Daleman would be a World bronze medalist today, I wouldn't have believed you. If anyone is proof the above doesn't always have to apply it's her.

Although, I believe it was about a year ago that Mishin (IIRC) in an interview was asked which if any North Americans he thought were ladies to look out for. Daleman was the main one he named. I was completely taken by surprise and immediately started watching her more closely. And what do you know, he was absolutely right!

 

[smarts1]

I've been saying this for years, but Karen is our next big star! She just needs to stay healthy and find a way to battle those boot issues!

I'm just so happy that the US ladies squeaked by with 3 spots for next year.

On a side note, the FS at worlds this year was probably the worst I've seen in a while.

 

[kwanfan1818]

US Ladies did not just squeak by: they earned 11, when the cut-off is 13. All three US Ladies will be guaranteed two GP spots, if the rules are the same as they've been for years.

 

[Jun Y]

I'm not too hot on betting any particular skater as a star or trainwreck. If anything, I think the competition has proven yet again that the ice is slippery and anyone can win or fail. (Privately I did bet on Wakaba Higuchi for a breakthrough, and look what happened.) It's unpredictable --- except, I guess, if you are Medvedeva. This is why I don't think it's a good idea to call for anyone's removal from the team based on one competition. Sure, USFSA gets it wrong from time to time, but they are probably right more often than fans.

Anyway, congratulations to the US team for keeping 3 spots. Unfortunately my previous worry about the Japanese team came true.

 

[Jammers]

US Ladies did not just squeak by: they earned 11, when the cut-off is 13. All three US Ladies will be guaranteed two GP spots, if the rules are the same as they've been for years.

I would say they squeaked by because without Anna melting down and Maria and Wakaba struggling the US was going to lose the 3rd spot. I bet Ashley was sweating bullets.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And evey year there are skaters who under-perform, are injured, struggle, continue to be inconsistent, peak too early, or are Fall competitors, etc.

Every pre-Olympic Worlds some of the usual suspects lose a spot that they seemed unlikely to lose one or two years before.

 

[jlai]

Considering how many top US ladies were injured or not in peak form for whatever reason, this is a great great result. Just to show: you never know!

I think this competition goes to show how important it is to have an "anchor" on the team: someone to rely on. Sure, Ashley hasn't been the highest placing lady at worlds, but she has been good enough to get three spots since 2013 (or 2012, if you consider her 4th). Having someone like that on the team helps calm the nerves of the less experienced members. Kudos to her!

Which is why I think the loss of Miyahara cost team Japan.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Considering how many top US ladies were injured or not in peak form for whatever reason, this is a great great result. Just to show: you never know!

I think this competition goes to show how important it is to have an "anchor" on the team: someone to rely on. Sure, Ashley hasn't been the highest placing lady at worlds, but she has been good enough to get three spots since 2013 (or 2012, if you consider her 4th). Having someone like that on the team helps calm the nerves of the less experienced members. Kudos to her!

Which is why I think the loss of Miyahara cost team Japan.

Whigh top US Ladies were injured?

 

[bardtoob]

Can we just leave Gracie alone for once, she didn't even skate and we have to make slight digs at her?

I love Gracie, and I hope she is happy and healthy right now or is doing what is necessary to be happy and healthy, and I hope she skates well at every opportunity.

I want the 2018 US Olympic Team to be chosen next year after as many skaters as possible perform their best with healthy bodies and healthy souls, and I hope they all love skating so they feel it is all worth it no matter the results because they got to show the world what beautiful work they can do as a result of competitions existing

 

[Nomad]

No matter who the Olympic team is, there will be people gnashing their teeth and clutching their pearls and crying out "Tammy Twizzle WUZROBBED!" Followed by the inevitable "USFS should have a skate-off between Tammy Twizzle and Suzy Sparkle."

 

[Willin]

@Nomad It's especially bad because in an Olympic year you not only have us fans going crazy about who made the team, but also people (and professional sports journalists) who only watch every four years complaining about who did/did not make it without any context of the rest of the Olympic cycle or even the rest of that season!