U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[Willin]

@DimaToe I already explained this a few pages back, but the thing in 2014 was that 1. the ladies field was a LOT less deep than it is now and 2. Polina had a great Junior season preceding the Olympic selection, Tessa hasn't had results nearly that good.

@bardtoob I would love if they did that, but somehow I don't see it happening... It's a lot closer to the Olympics than 4CC is to worlds.

 

[DimaToe]

They should throw a scavenger hunt into the mix, whoever get the 5 golden tickets gets an Olympic spot, but the keepers of the tickets would be Marta Karolyi, Irina Viner, Eteri Tutberidze, Jutta Müller, and Tatiana Tarasova

 

[DimaToe]

@Willin Hope dies last.

Tessa Hong, Vivian Le and Starr Andrews for the 2018 Olympic team ,

 

[bardtoob]

@bardtoob I would love if they did that, but somehow I don't see it happening... It's a lot closer to the Olympics than 4CC is to worlds.

Maybe, or perhaps they do have a skate test right before the deadlines. I wish 4CC precisely overlapped with Euros so it was as meaningful since national federations have pushed back their championships next year to accommodate it.

 

[Willin]

@bardtoob I really wish USFS and Canada would move their nationals earlier every year to accommodate an earlier 4CC. It works quite well for other countries to have Nationals in late December/early January. I get that Christmas may be an issue, but doing it the weekend after that may be fine. Not to mention it would line up well with school breaks so it would be easier for the skaters. Maybe more spectators would also be able to come that way.

 

[Frida80]

@bardtoob I really wish USFS and Canada would move their nationals earlier every year to accommodate an earlier 4CC. It works quite well for other countries to have Nationals in late December/early January. I get that Christmas may be an issue, but doing it the weekend after that may be fine. Not to mention it would line up well with school breaks so it would be easier for the skaters. Maybe more spectators would also be able to come that way.

It's not as easy for US and Canada to have nationals in the end of December. NBC would never go for it. Trying to fill a non football related venue would be tough for the US in December. Here everyone just focuses on a Christmas and partying in the new year. The best you can get it's the second week of January.

 

[hoptoad]

Karen was amazing! Did anyone think that Karen Chen would place higher than Nathan Chen?!!

 

[jiejie]

@bardtoob I really wish USFS and Canada would move their nationals earlier every year to accommodate an earlier 4CC. It works quite well for other countries to have Nationals in late December/early January. I get that Christmas may be an issue, but doing it the weekend after that may be fine. Not to mention it would line up well with school breaks so it would be easier for the skaters. Maybe more spectators would also be able to come that way.

Can't speak to Canada, but in the USA, this is NEVER going to happen. Remember that US Nationals is not just senior skaters, but goes all the way down to juvenile level. When you figure in skaters, parents, coaches, judges, organizing officials, etc. it's a HUGE number of people that you'd affect. Most schools have their exams in December before the holiday break, and most competitors at nationals especially through junior level, are still in regular school. A few schools do their exams right after New Year. Then there's the competition structure--most participants (except for relatively few byes for top skaters) have just come off of competing at Sectionals in late November.

Not to mention that trying to travel around the USA in late December--one of the busiest domestic travel periods--can be a nightmare and airfares always more expensive than usual. Most people who travel are doing so to get to family gatherings--which I believe will still take precedence over going to figure skating competitions, resulting in fewer spectators not more. Venues and willing hosts would be in short supply--remember much of Nationals happens with volunteer labor, and these same volunteers are already pressed to the limit just dealing with their own personal obligations around the holidays.

Bottom line is that figure skating in America has to adapt to the country's norms, it's not going to work the other way around. The NBC/commercial television timing issue is valid but far from the only major obstacle.

The typical solution used in Olympic years for possible 4CC competitors is for USFSA to give skaters latitude to decide whether or not they would go if selected to the Olympic team--many decline in favor of focusing on preparation for the Games and this is why the US often sends a completely different team to 4CC. I don't see any problem with this.

 

[skatingguy]

Giving the timing of 4CC next year I don't think it would matter when Canadian or US Nationals were being held the Olympics bound skaters would not be going. There is only two weeks between 4CC and the Olympics and with the travel and jet lag it wouldn't make sense to go to Asia and then come home and then go back a week later. The only way it would make sense is if Skate Canada had a training base and brought the whole team there after Canadians and kept them there for the whole period from 4CC to Olympics and the expense of that makes that idea completely ridiculous. 4CC next year will be a senior B and a great opportunity for lower ranked skaters in the US and Canada - and probably most of the Asian countries - to gain experience, ranking points, and get on the season's best list.

 

[clairecloutier]

So, this article says that Ashley will be reusing her "Hip Hip Chin Chin" SP next year: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-ashley-wagner-disappointing-worlds/99954102/. If this was announced previously, I missed it.

In general, I always like for skaters to get new programs, especially for the Olympics. OTOH, "Hip Hip Chin Chin" is definitely my favorite Wagner SP, I think it's awesome. And we know it's a bit uncomfortable for Ashley to learn new choreo, so maybe this is for the best.

Thoughts??

 

[Wyliefan]

Well, I'd really like her to try something new -- but it's a good program for her, and if it makes her feel comfortable, it's probably for the best.

 

[jiejie]

So, this article says that Ashley will be reusing her "Hip Hip Chin Chin" SP next year: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-ashley-wagner-disappointing-worlds/99954102/. If this was announced previously, I missed it.

In general, I always like for skaters to get new programs, especially for the Olympics. OTOH, "Hip Hip Chin Chin" is definitely my favorite Wagner SP, I think it's awesome. And we know it's a bit uncomfortable for Ashley to learn new choreo, so maybe this is for the best.

Thoughts??

I hadn't heard of any official pronouncement from Wagner. In general, I don't like retreads on programs from the past, but I'd rather see an upgraded Hip Hip Chin Chin again than a new but poor music choice--HHCC is as close to iconic for her as she's ever done. I did not think her program selections for SP and FS this year did her any favors. I'm not convinced La La Land is a good FS choice for next year (and I'm afraid too many skaters will be using it)....but we'll just have to see what music cuts she uses. I think Ashley does better with character or "concrete" programs rather than abstract ones.

 

[Firedancer]

I generally like to see new programs but HHCC is my favorite short program Ashley has had and this was a strong program for her. Also, we saw when she used Mulan Rouge for the second year, she still changed a lot of the choreography so it wasn't the exact same program. If this will allow Ashley to feel the most comfortable and prepared for the Olympic season I think it's a good choice.

 

[Coco]

@jiejie You make very good points.

Next year Nationals will be the first week of January. It will be interesting to see how that works for everyone.

 

[Skateparent]

So, this article says that Ashley will be reusing her "Hip Hip Chin Chin" SP next year: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-ashley-wagner-disappointing-worlds/99954102/. If this was announced previously, I missed it.

In general, I always like for skaters to get new programs, especially for the Olympics. OTOH, "Hip Hip Chin Chin" is definitely my favorite Wagner SP, I think it's awesome. And we know it's a bit uncomfortable for Ashley to learn new choreo, so maybe this is for the best.

Thoughts??

Sounds like a strategic thing to do. It was a good program and reusing it would allow her to spend more training time for improving jumps, rather than learning new choreography which can consume a large amount of time from original choreography to putting jumps in and getting used to it.

 

[Willin]

That SP was great on Ashley, and set her apart from the field. I'm happy she's going back to it. It also seemed that she was very comfortable when performing it, but it didn't come off as a show program as much as this year's SP. I'll be excited to see what she can do with it in the Olympic year!

 

[vesperholly]

To be honest of all the top ladies Ashley might have the weakest skating skills. She's constantly giving away points with her spins and she lacks transitions and one foot skating.

Transitions aren't skating skills. Overuse of two-foot skating is, but it's also the last bullet point of a long list: https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

Skating Skills
Definition: Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

Criteria:

• Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
• Flow and effortless glide: Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.
• Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns: The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
• Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration: Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
• Multi directional skating: Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
• Mastery of one foot skating: No over use of skating on two feet.

I think Ashley does a lot of those things very, very well.

 

[vesperholly]

Can't speak to Canada, but in the USA, this is NEVER going to happen. Remember that US Nationals is not just senior skaters, but goes all the way down to juvenile level. When you figure in skaters, parents, coaches, judges, organizing officials, etc. it's a HUGE number of people that you'd affect. Most schools have their exams in December before the holiday break, and most competitors at nationals especially through junior level, are still in regular school. A few schools do their exams right after New Year. Then there's the competition structure--most participants (except for relatively few byes for top skaters) have just come off of competing at Sectionals in late November.

2018 US Nationals is starting as early as humanly possible - Dec. 29, 2017. Senior events will be the weekend of Jan. 6. The scheduling at the end of 2017 is a nightmare and that's the best they can do unless they hold the competition on Christmas (never).

Dec. 9: GPF
Dec. 16: -
Dec. 23: Christmas
Dec. 30: US Nationals starts
Jan. 6: US Nationals senior events
Jan. 13: -
Jan. 20: Open [Europeans]
Jan. 27: 4CC
Feb. 3: -
Feb. 10: Olympics start
Feb. 10-17: Team, Pairs, Men
Feb. 18-24: Men, Dance, Ladies
March 2: -
March 9: -
March 16: -
March 25: Worlds

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

So, this article says that Ashley will be reusing her "Hip Hip Chin Chin" SP next year:

I hope she calls Marissa Castelli and secures you know what.

 

[mtnskater]

So funny that Ashley has announced she will use HHCC short program next year. This morning I just rewatched the top ladies short programs from Boston Worlds last year. I thought to myself after watching Ashley, "I wish she would bring this back for the Olympics." And she is!! It is the perfect short program for her and will go over so well at the Olympics. Plus it brings back good vibes/ memories for her of her silver medal win.

I also watched Gracie's first place short. She's my fave and I really miss THAT Gracie!

 

[pinky166]

Next season is gonna be exciting. There isn't really a front runner/lock for the Olympic team on the ladies side IMO.


Unlike last time around, I don't think Gracie or Ashley will be given preferential treatment. They both have good chances to make the team but I think they will need to have solid seasons and finish in the top 3 at Nationals.

So ladies in the mix as this point:

Karen
Ashley
Mariah
Gracie
Mirai
Polina if she's healthy and comes back strong

Is there anyone else in the mix do we think?

Shocking that there could be no 2014 Olympians on the 2018 team. Karen, Mariah, Mirai seems like a real possibility now?

 

[flyingsit]

I know when I'll be muting the sound next year... HHCC makes my ears bleed. Worse than any GFB.

 

[Vagabond]

Giving the timing of 4CC next year I don't think it would matter when Canadian or US Nationals were being held the Olympics bound skaters would not be going. There is only two weeks between 4CC and the Olympics and with the travel and jet lag it wouldn't make sense to go to Asia and then come home and then go back a week later. The only way it would make sense is if Skate Canada had a training base and brought the whole team there after Canadians and kept them there for the whole period from 4CC to Worlds and the expense of that makes that idea completely ridiculous.

Clearly not Worlds. Worlds are in Milan.

Regardless, why does the expense of keeping at least some athletes in Asia from January 28 (the last day of 4CC's, which are in Taiwan) make having a training base somewhere in or near South Korea ridiculous?

In 2010, Russian figure skaters and Japanese short track speed skaters used Abbotsford, B.C. as a training base before heading to Vancouver.

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/vancouver-sun/20100205/282329676082152

Given this calendar

Jan. 27: 4CC
Feb. 3: -
Feb. 10: Olympics start
Feb. 10-17: Team, Pairs, Men
Feb. 18-24: Men, Dance, Ladies

a very strong argument can be made that at least some, if not all, U.S. and Canadian skaters likely to be used for the Team, Paris, and Men's events, at the very least, should be expected (or required) to participate in Four Continents and then train with their Olympic Teams.

The alternative is to send skaters with no realistic prospect of making the Olympic Team, even as substitutes, on transoceanic flights two weeks before the Olympics start. One could just as easily say that that is a ridiculous use of the Federations' members' money.

 

[Marco]

Revisiting HHCC can be good for Ashley. When she brought back S&D for Sochi Olympics (and Worlds), it became a much more nuanced program.

I haven't heard the La La Land music but I wish she would return to something more dramatic and 'loud' for the free. Part of the problem with this Muse program is that it doesn't quite inspire her (and us) - much like the R&J she originally used in 2014. It's slow and a bit of a downer, and doesn't exactly prompt loud audience reaction - which is always what she needs.

 

[Frida80]

Clearly not Worlds. Worlds are in Milan.

Regardless, why does the expense of keeping at least some athletes in Asia from January 28 (the last day of 4CC's, which are in Taiwan) make having a training base somewhere in or near South Korea ridiculous?

In 2010, Russian figure skaters and Japanese short track speed skaters used Abbotsford, B.C. as a training base before heading to Vancouver.

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/vancouver-sun/20100205/282329676082152

Given this calendar



a very strong argument can be made that at least some, if not all, U.S. and Canadian skaters likely to be used for the Team, Paris, and Men's events, at the very least, should be expected (or required) to participate in Four Continents and then train with their Olympic Teams.

The alternative is to send skaters with no realistic prospect of making the Olympic Team, even as substitutes, on transoceanic flights two weeks before the Olympics start. One could just as easily say that that is a ridiculous use of the Federations' members' money.

The tradition during Olympic years is to send skaters not on the Olympic team. Normally the alternates.

 

[Vagabond]

The tradition during Olympic years is to send skaters not on the Olympic team. Normally the alternates.

Not really. What has happened the last two times was that the top Canadian and American ice dancers and pairs couples go to 4CC's and the top U.S. singles skaters beg off because they don't want to fly to Asia right before the Olympics -- something that makes sense if the Olympics are held in North America (2010) or Europe (2014), but which doesn't make all that much sense if the Olympics are a three-hour flight away from 4CC's. It really doesn't make sense if those skaters show an interest in doing ice shows in Europe during this period in order to make money, as at least some of them have been wont to do.

I can't remember exactly what happened in 2014, but in 2010, the USFSA required skaters to commit to skating at 4CC's if selected, leaving the Federation with a 4CC's Ladies' team that consisted of Amanda Dobbs (6th at Nationals), Alexe Gilles (8th), and Caroline Zhang (11th).

 

[Jammers]

Not really. What has happened the last two times was that the top Canadian and American ice dancers and pairs couples go to 4CC's and the top U.S. singles skaters beg off because they don't want to fly to Asia right before the Olympics -- something that makes sense if the Olympics are held in North America (2010) or Europe (2014), but which doesn't make all that much sense if the Olympics are a three-hour flight away from 4CC's. It really doesn't make sense if those skaters show an interest in doing ice shows in Europe during this period in order to make money, as at least some of them have been wont to do.

I can't remember exactly what happened in 2014, but in 2010, the USFSA required skaters to commit to skating at 4CC's if selected, leaving the Federation with a 4CC's Ladies' team that consisted of Amanda Dobbs (6th at Nationals), Alexe Gilles (8th) and Caroline Zhang (11th).

Actually the top Ice Dancing and Pairs teams from Canada and the US that were on the Olympic team in 2010 and 2014 didn't go to 4CC's. Same thing will happen again next year the B teams will go to 4CC.

 

[vesperholly]

I wonder if any skaters who want to go to 4CCs and are competing at the Olympics will find a way to stay and train in Asia.

 

[falling_dance]

I can't remember exactly what happened in 2014, but in 2010, the USFSA required skaters to commit to skating at 4CC's if selected, leaving the Federation with a 4CC's Ladies' team that consisted of Amanda Dobbs (6th at Nationals), Alexe Gilles (8th), and Caroline Zhang (11th).

I really liked that team. And Zhang did win the bronze.

 

[Vagabond]

And Zhang did win the bronze.

That's fifty percent of the reason why she's not on Team Trainwreck.