Who was the most overhyped skater by commentators/writers/insiders in skating

[savchenkoboss]

I dont mean the most overscored, but who was the most overhyped and overgushed upon skater by commentators and writers.

Women:

Michelle Kwan- just listen to Dick Button commentate on her, nuff said.

Sasha Cohen- ditto the above, except in her case throw in Peggy Fleming as being insanely biased too.

Oksana Baiul- just listen to Scott Hamilton commentate on her. Even as a pro when she lost her jumps and could barely do a double axel or triple toe sometimes, she was the bees knees and the greatest artistic skater ever to him.


Men:

Sandhu- As a Canadian I lost count of the number of times I had to listen to balogna how he was the most talented skater of all time, would be unbeatable if he were mentally tough, blah blah.

Boitano- The pro event commentary by people like Hamilton, Bezic, Wylie, Browning, (all personal friends of his and biased) was just too much, as much as I think he was amazing, espeicaly as a pro.


Pairs:

Sale & Pelletier

Gordeeva & Grinkov- Even though they are the best pair ever IMO, Hamilton's commentary on them everytime they skated almost made me partly resent them at one point. Not their fault of course, but that is how over the top and ridiculous. Especialy during the 94 Olympics when they were far from their best, many disagreed with their win, and he even poo pooed their problems, and was completely dismissive of them being far from their best on the day. It was even worse since he had clear alterior agenda in their case (Stars on Ice promoter, they were the biggest meal ticket of the Stars on Ice cast by then).

Shen & Zhao- I totally get why they were so beloved, but the commentary atleast in North America became over the top from 2003 onwards. Especialy by people like Rod Black, Debbie Wilkes, and Scott Hamilton.


Dance:

Virtue & Moir

Bourne & Kraatz- those who dont know why I am including them must be from Europe and never heard North American commentary during their careers. Especialy the never ending bloc judging conspiracies everytime they didnt medal in or win an event they skated in.



It might be recency bias but I voted Virtue & Moir, in part since CBC commentators went so far as to bash an otherwise excellent team like Papadakis & Cizeron in their efforts to build V&M further. Atleast in the cases of these others, the overrating/exagerrating of these skaters/teams didnt directly lead to bashing of their main competitors. Kwan fanatical commentators/writers bashed Slutskaya in some cases, but IMO given who they were (Button, Fleming, Hamilton, Brennan) they are mostly people who would have disliked and bashed Slutskaya even if Kwan werent around as none of those I suspect would have ever liked Slutskaya's skating. Unlike P&C dumpage which never happens if V&M arent competing, which is easily proven by the commentary of these exact same people in the 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 seasons.

 

[gk_891]

Bourne & Kraatz for me. Although Cohen is a close second. B&K were good but there were nowhere near as good as their fans made them out to be.

 

[bardtoob]

I personally think Virtue & Moir are a snooze to watch ...

... But I don't know how they can be overhyped since they have 3 Olympic Gold Medals and 2 Olympic Silver medals.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I personally think Virtue & Moir are a snooze to watch ...

... But I don't know how they can be overhyped since they have 3 Olympic Gold Medals and 2 Olympic Silver medals.

Anyone can be overhyped potentially. Like I said Gordeeva & Grinkov IMO are clearly the best pairs team of all time, and yet I still consider them overhyped when Scott Hamilton has a microphone in a competition they are in.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Bourne & Kraatz for me. Although Cohen is a close second. B&K were good but there were nowhere near as good as their fans made them out to be.

Their fans of course, but also the countless conspiracy theories by NBC, CTV, CBC, ABC, and CBS, in any competition they were in and didnt either win or medal. Regardless how they skated or the actual merits (or lack thereof) of the given programs they skated at said competition.

Since Bourne & Kraatz came 4th in Nagano Olympics, did not medal, there MUST be bloc judging, it isnt even a question, and everyone should accept it and ban ice dance from the Olympics. According to CBS and TSN.

 

[screech]

Yuzuru Hanyu

 

[savchenkoboss]

Yuzuru Hanyu

Not a wrong opinion neccessarily, I just havent noticed too much OTT from Canadian or American commentators. They were higher on both Chan in 2014 and Chen in 2018 for instance. Now if I lived in Japan it would probably be a whole different story.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Gracie Gold

 

[caseyedwards]

I don’t even get p/c at ALL

 

[overedge]

Commentators, writers, and insiders are not the same thing. Not by a long stretch. Putting them all into one group makes this poll even more meaningless than it is already

 

[Japanfan]

Sasha Cohen- ditto the above, except in her case throw in Peggy Fleming as being insanely biased too.

The Canadian commentators gushed equally over Sasha. I got so sick of hearing them endlessly praise her spiral and picture-perfect poses that it contributed to me developing a dislike of Sasha's. Part of this was because skaters with other qualities such as powerful jumps never earned equal praise.

Sasha did have a spiral to die for. I'm surprised to actually find myself missing the spiral as of late (Michelle's was awesome too). But I'll be kicking myself for saying so if the a spiral sequence again becomes mandatory in the SP.

Men:Sandhu- As a Canadian I lost count of the number of times I had to listen to balogna how he was the most talented skater of all time, would be unbeatable if he were mentally tough, blah blah.

With regard to Canadian commentators, they do have to promote Canadian skaters.

And I don't recall ever hearing that Sandhu was the most talented skater of all time. To be fair, he was one of the most balletic and deserved credit for that (he did graduate from ballet school IIRC). I don't recall many men that could rival him in terms of that quality. I can't think of any man today who has that quality, although I only watch the top 20 or so in the world/Canada/US, so am really not qualified to comment on that.

Sandhu was a really beautiful skater and it's a shame he never fulfilled his potential because of his issues from childhood, or because he was just a headcase.

Bourne & Kraatz- those who dont know why I am including them must be from Europe and never heard North American commentary during their careers. Especialy the never ending bloc judging conspiracies everytime they didnt medal in or win an event they skated in.

I started to watch skating in 1998, when B/K competed in the Olympics (and finished 4th IIRC?). I was not able to form an opinion on dance rankings then - which has gotten easier subsequent to CoP.

But I am not ashamed to say that I loved loved loved B/K over the years. Their Riverdance was hugely fun and entertaining regarding its technical complexity. And they want on to take on other unconventional programs, which took both courage and innovation.

I thought their world title - earned to a conventionally dramatic program - was well deserved.

Also, do bloc judging conspiracies exist only in the minds of the west?

I somehow doubt it. Though of course people will argue that the Russians dominated pairs and dance for so many years only because they were better and it had nothing to do with politics.

It might be recency bias but I voted Virtue & Moir, in part since CBC commentators went so far as to bash an otherwise excellent team like Papadakis & Cizeron in their efforts to build V&M further.

Could you provide a source, please? I don't recall the CBC commentators bashing P/C ever - they have only ever been complimentary towards them, sometimes to the point of gushing. I have rewatched the two tops teams at the Olympics a number of times. I think the commentators were no less surprised than anyone else when V/M actually won.

Kwan fanatical commentators/writers bashed Slutskaya in some cases, but IMO given who they were (Button, Fleming, Hamilton, Brennan) they are mostly people who would have disliked and bashed Slutskaya even if Kwan werent around as none of those I suspect would have ever liked Slutskaya's skating.

I agree that Slute was not favored by American and Canadian commentators. But in the case of the Canadians, she didn't eventually demand that they respect her.

Unlike P&C dumpage which never happens if V&M arent competing, which is easily proven by the commentary of these exact same people in the 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 seasons.

Again - could you please provide evidence of that dumpage?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I blame Sandhu's inconsistency squarely on his coach, Joanne McLeod.

Apart from her over the top coddling and constant bowing to his diva nonsense when he was in his twenties, apparently, she wasn't even a trained skater.

Knowing this makes sense, why his odd jump technique seemed to fail so often under pressure.

 

[gk_891]

The Canadian commentators gushed equally over Sasha. I got so sick of hearing them endlessly praise her spiral and picture-perfect poses that it contributed to me developing a dislike of Sasha's. Part of this was because skaters with other qualities such as powerful jumps never earned equal praise.

Sasha did have a spiral to die for. I'm surprised to actually find myself missing the spiral as of late (Michelle's was awesome too). But I'll be kicking myself for saying so if the a spiral sequence again becomes mandatory in the SP.

Sasha showcased a lot of flexibility and extension in her spiral but I'm convinced it was all that good outside of those 2 aspects. Two other (and more important) aspects to a spiral sequence are edge control and the pattern they make on the ice. And I wasn't too impressed with her spirals in that regard. IMO, Shizuka Arakawa showcased a far superior spiral at the 2006 Olympics. Not only was her edge control incredible but she makes a far more impressive pattern on the ice with it (she goes from board to board).

I started to watch skating in 1998, when B/K competed in the Olympics (and finished 4th IIRC?). I was not able to form an opinion on dance rankings then - which has gotten easier subsequent to CoP.

But I am not ashamed to say that I loved loved loved B/K over the years. Their Riverdance was hugely fun and entertaining regarding its technical complexity. And they want on to take on other unconventional programs, which took both courage and innovation.

I thought their world title - earned to a conventionally dramatic program - was well deserved.

Also, do bloc judging conspiracies exist only in the minds of the west?

I somehow doubt it. Though of course people will argue that the Russians dominated pairs and dance for so many years only because they were better and it had nothing to do with politics.

You might've liked Riverdance for its entertainment value but there really wasn't any technical complexity in it. They skated everything side by side or hand to hand. This has almost always been the case with this team as their OD that year was even worse in that regard and had no business placing in the top 5 that year at either the Olympics or Worlds. The choreography for both programs was beyond poor.

They also made mistakes across the board in both of their compulsory dances in Nagano as both their Golden Waltz and Argentine Tango were littered with errors. The one in the Golden Waltz was pretty obvious but in the Argentine Tango, it seemed like they were the only team in the top 10 who couldn't skate their counters or their twizzles properly.

If anything, many of B&K's placements were very generous. I actually think there should be conspiracies about how they were held up. And the few times they did demonstrate good content (98-99 season, 2000-2001 OD), they could never perform them up to a good standard.

 

[Seerek]

In Canada, Tracey Wainman

 

[PDilemma]

"Overhype" has always had the connotation of overstating an athlete or team's potential before they have competed significantly and then the athlete/team fails to accomplish anything that was forecast or expected. So I'm not sure how that list of World and Olympic medalists could be considered overhyped. They all delivered at some point in their careers.

The first name that comes to my mind is Caroline Zhang. She is quite possibly the poster child for overhyped skaters.

Gracie was pretty overhyped as well. I recall declarations that she would be the 2014 Olympic champ without question. She at least managed to win Nationals.

 

[WillyElliot]

I chose Sandhu, but I forgot about Sale/Pelletier. Sandhu is comparable to Cohen to me, both extremely talented skaters, beautiful to watch, but technique/headcase issues got in their way. I still do not understand the love for S/P to be honest. They were far inferior skaters to B/S, by a very long mile. I liked Love Story, but technically it was miles below B/S's level. If I could change my vote it would definitely be S/P..

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In Canada, Tracey Wainman

Yes, and no.

When Wainman made her debut on the world stage in 1980, she was only 12 years old, sold her programs to the rafters, and had solid technical content comparable to the rest of the women's field. Something else which stood her in good stead was that she was excellent at compulsory figures, and always seemed to do well at that section of competition.

Unfortunately, Tracey lost a lot of her jumping ability when she hit puberty, and she had to relearn everything from scratch. By the time she made the world team again in 1986, she didn't have anywhere near the same technical content to make her competitive with the likes of Thomas, Witt, Chin, Kadavy, Manley, Leistner, Ivanova, or Kondrashova.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

"Overhype" has always had the connotation of overstating an athlete or team's potential before they have competed significantly and then the athlete/team fails to accomplish anything that was forecast or expected. So I'm not sure how that list of World and Olympic medalists could be considered overhyped. They all delivered at some point in their careers.

The first name that comes to my mind is Caroline Zhang. She is quite possibly the poster child for overhyped skaters.

Gracie was pretty overhyped as well. I recall declarations that she would be the 2014 Olympic champ without question. She at least managed to win Nationals.

The Canadian commentator, had a gift for cursing male skaters, when he anointed them, 'the next one'.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I agree on Tracy Wainmann, but then again a 12 year old who can already do a triple salchow and has excellent spins might seem to have unlimited potential. And given the dire state of Canadian women in the immediate years preceding that, some excessive enthusiam and overhype was almost inevitable. People always need to keep in mind with someone so young, they have yet to do a thing called growing and puberty though, and until they hit that, there is no telling what their potential is or isnt.

Caroline Zhang is another good one. Forgot about her, but the hype around her when she first hit the scene was OTT. She did have an excellent junior career but a lot of her weaknesses, which were already ingrained and nearly impossible to fix, were already evident. The U.S was desperate for another Michelle Kwan or Sasha Cohen though.

@Japanfan, Carol Lane and Kurt Browning made unfounded claims that there was corrupt judging against V&M and P&C after P&C beat V&M only ONCE (in their 4 meetings since V&M returned) at the GPF preceding the Olympics. Forgetting that outside of Canada, that wasnt a controversial result to anyone, and that the only controversial win either team had since V&M's return was V&M's win at worlds last year after they stumbled in the FD yet still won. From that point on it was all conspiracy theories, corruption favoring P&C and against V&M BS from Lane and Browning (similar to V&M fanatics behaviour over the years), and it even briefly resurfaced after P&C's mammoth score (deserved) in the Olympic FD, and how the fix was in for a P&C win again and V&M could now never win (ooops, idiots). In addition to that they have talked endlessly since V&M's announced return in summer P&C how P&C are one dimensional, only do beautiful soft programs (arguably true to a degree but such talk mysteriously never existed before from them), have no versatility, lack chemistry in their pair, and all kinds of other nitpicks and criticsms of their dancing. When before V&M came back they were supposably wonderful to these same people, ROTFL!

 

[savchenkoboss]

Yes, and no.

When Wainman made her debut on the world stage in 1980, she was only 12 years old, sold her programs to the rafters, and had solid technical content comparable to the rest of the women's field. Something else which stood her in good stead was that she was excellent at compulsory figures, and always seemed to do well at that section of competition.

Unfortunately, Tracey lost a lot of her jumping ability when she hit puberty, and she had to relearn everything from scratch. By the time she made the world team again in 1986, she didn't have anywhere near the same technical content to make her competitive with the likes of Thomas, Witt, Chin, Kadavy, Manley, Leistner, Ivanova, or Kondrashova.

Tracy never had the actual technical content to compete with the very best. Even at the height of her jumping ability she did 1 triple salchow per long program. That was nothing, even someone like Rosalynn Sumners who wasnt a strong jumper, and relied entirely on high artistic scores and strong figures to win against people like Witt, Chin, the Russians on a good day, Leistner, Zayak, did way more than that. By 86 women were now doing 5 or 6 triples per program, even Witt on a good day was.

Her biggest win ever (Skate Canada 81) where she rode suspect home country scoring to a huge win over a strong field including Sumners, Manley, Hill, Kristofics-Binder, Ivanova was based entirely on compulsory figures. She was only 3rd in the short and long programs, but others besides Hill and Kristofics-Binder were way behind in figures. Sumners won both the short and long programs but due to her being 8th in figures, Wainmann won the event anyway.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I blame Sandhu's inconsistency squarely on his coach, Joanne McLeod.

Apart from her over the top coddling and constant bowing to his diva nonsense when he was in his twenties, apparently, she wasn't even a trained skater.

Knowing this makes sense, why his odd jump technique seemed to fail so often under pressure.

I have multiple close friends in Vancouver who have seen the training of McLeod first hand, and are very familiar with the going ons at that rink, one was even employed there in another position for a number of years, and can testify she is a pretty awful coach. A nice women, but not a good coach at all. Her understanding of basic techniques and proper training and psychological methods are all out to lunch, and she is unable to run a functioning and anything but chaotic training environment. The problems of both Sandhu and Leung (it is even arguable if Leung is worse of with her Mom or McLeod, one is hardly any better than the other believe it or not), and a lot of the lack of improvements and technique issues of Reynolds despite his ability to rotate those tiny quads so well, are due to McLeod's coaching.

 

[Seerek]

I have multiple close friends in Vancouver who have seen the training of McLeod first hand, and are very familiar with the going ons at that rink, one was even employed there in another position for a number of years, and can testify she is a pretty awful coach. A nice women, but not a good coach at all. Her understanding of basic techniques and proper training and psychological methods are all out to lunch, and she is unable to run a functioning and anything but chaotic training environment. The problems of both Sandhu and Leung (it is even arguable if Leung is worse of with her Mom or McLeod, one is hardly any better than the other believe it or not), and a lot of the lack of improvements and technique issues of Reynolds despite his ability to rotate those tiny quads so well, are due to McLeod's coaching.

That's why I'm somewhat worried with how Aleksa Rakic (13, top 10 at JGP Slovakia last week) will develop under Joanne - it appears he's a good competitor, but he has some of the same bad tendencies as Joanne's other students.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Agreed, I have yet to see a single skater under McLeod who didnt have flawed jump technique and some kind of mental issues when it comes to competing. Granted Leung was super consistent but she had mental issues with skating in other ways- lack of joy, poorly receptive to anyones coaching or advice, especialy if not (and even including at times) McLeod, lack of willingess to address obvious weaknesses, delusional views on abilities and goals she could make for herself without significant improvements, me against the world mentality. I hope Rakic switches to another coach at some point.

 

[Spiralgraph]

"Overhype" has always had the connotation of overstating an athlete or team's potential before they have competed significantly and then the athlete/team fails to accomplish anything that was forecast or expected. So I'm not sure how that list of World and Olympic medalists could be considered overhyped. They all delivered at some point in their careers.

The first name that comes to my mind is Caroline Zhang. She is quite possibly the poster child for overhyped skaters. ....

Caroline Zhang was my first thought as well. Her pearl spin was amazing, but sadly her technique back when she was 13/14 was lacking and the media acted as if she would win the OGM. I'm very glad she has found happiness now with her new husband, Grant as they transfer into coaching.

 

[Winnipeg]

Cohen - jumps too small

 

[savchenkoboss]

Caroline Zhang was my first thought as well. Her pearl spin was amazing, but sadly her technique back when she was 13/14 was lacking and the media acted as if she would win the OGM. I'm very glad she has found happiness now with her new husband, Grant as they transfer into coaching.

I just realized something amazing. Grant competed at a worlds and Zhang never did. Wow, pretty amazing fact.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

I do not understand the question but I think the answer must be Todd Eldritch.

 

[escaflowne9282]

With 2 OGMs and an Olympic silver in between, V&M's accomplishments speak for themselves, so I don't consider them overhyped nor overrated.
However, I can understand the annoyance towards tearing down P&C. As a fan of theirs ,I kept getting deja vu to my time as a fan of Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze in 2000-2002. The #justiceforVM warriors who appeared on social media after the Grand Prix Final (after Tessa and Scott had stumbles and P&C were nary 2 points ahead) were OTT.
I love V&M's skating ,but some of their supporters have really been killjoys.
But that does not make them overhyped.

For me that distinction goes to B&K among this list. They were entertaining at their best, but they were never done in by the judges the way so many claimed.

 

[screech]

And I don't recall ever hearing that Sandhu was the most talented skater of all time. To be fair, he was one of the most balletic and deserved credit for that (he did graduate from ballet school IIRC). I don't recall many men that could rival him in terms of that quality. I can't think of any man today who has that quality, although I only watch the top 20 or so in the world/Canada/US, so am really not qualified to comment on that.

Sandhu was a really beautiful skater and it's a shame he never fulfilled his potential because of his issues from childhood, or because he was just a headcase.

I recall hearing once that apparently Sandhu was the skater that Plushenko and Mishin most worried about, because they figured that if he ever got his shit together, he'd be extremely difficult to beat.
So the hype wasn't entirely unfounded, it's just that Sandhu never lived up to it.

It's also hard to tell how being kept off the 1998 Olympic team might have affected him...

 

[Erin]

It's also hard to tell how being kept off the 1998 Olympic team might have affected him...

I feel like that excuse is almost as much BS as the ghosts in the hotel room one.