What I learned from Kristi Yamaguchi (NYT)

[VALuvsMKwan]

I think you mean "Bless your Heart".

 

[dr.frog]

Well, if nothing else, the posts in this thread and certain responses in it have finally provided me with what I take as a specific example of someone being having a viewpoint so filtered through white privilege that what is quite apparent to numerous others, and explained with specific examples, is not passing through that filter.

With that, I want to THANK you, dr. frog, for the lesson.

Why are you thanking me? I have nothing to do with white privilege. I self-identify as green , and as I've pointed out, my own family background and childhood were far less privileged than Yamaguchi's.

 

[overedge]

my own family background and childhood were far less privileged than Yamaguchi's.

Which has what to do with the article, exactly? The author said nothing about Yamaguchi's allegedly privileged childhood having any effect on her.

 

[Aerobicidal]

I am suddenly feeling dumber than a rock for teasing my gay male friend for not liking figure skating.

Don't feel bad on my account! I think that joking about and playing with stereotypes has a role in progressive politics; it can be subversive and funny. (It isn't always, in my opinion, but that's the nature of subversiveness.) Plus, certain positions on the left have been getting humorless and self-righteous recently, and I think that can be counterproductive.

But after reading the Practice Reports threads from Worlds, I'm not going any further towards opening that can of . . . flies.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Why are you thanking me? I have nothing to do with white privilege. I self-identify as green , and as I've pointed out, my own family background and childhood were far less privileged than Yamaguchi's.

Filter complete and intact. Experiment concluded.

 

[PRlady]

Why are you thanking me? I have nothing to do with white privilege. I self-identify as green , and as I've pointed out, my own family background and childhood were far less privileged than Yamaguchi's.

Oh for gods sake. It doesn't have anything to do with how much money your family had. It has to do with the fact that as a white person you were born into the default option. You didn't have to look for a white person role model who succeeded because almost all the people who succeeded were white. You didn't have to realize that your culture was the norm and others' the outliers, that was the unconscious assumption. And you didn't have to understand that there was privilege attached to even being a female and not wealthy member of the majority because your special rights were structural.

Privilege that's invisible is the hardest to see but you are too smart to be this obtuse.

 

[dr.frog]

Oh for gods sake. It doesn't have anything to do with how much money your family had. It has to do with the fact that as a white person you were born into the default option. You didn't have to look for a white person role model who succeeded because almost all the people who succeeded were white. You didn't have to realize that your culture was the norm and others' the outliers, that was the unconscious assumption. And you didn't have to understand that there was privilege attached to even being a female and not wealthy member of the majority because your special rights were structural.

All these supposed "facts" about "white persons" seem like the result of *your* own "unconscious assumptions" about race and privilege, rather than anything to do with me.

The reason why Yamaguchi's background seems privileged to me indeed has nothing to do with money. The thing is, her parents and other adults in her life actively encouraged and supported her to reach her goals, starting from a very young age. When I was growing up, my parents told me that my goals were inappropriate or impossible, treated me like a freak, and generally seemed to do everything possible to discourage me from pursuing a career in math or the hard sciences. I was always the misfit and outlier; I had no role models; and I had no special privileges.

In any case, I do not self-identify as a "white person", only as a "person". If someone says they don't belong to a particular racial or ethnic group, isn't it rather presumptuous of you to insist that they do? If someone says they had no role models, isn't it outright arrogant to insist that they did -- simply because of their alleged race?

 

[PRlady]

No, it's not. This isn't a matter of personal support or lack thereof, that's specific to one's family situation and has nothing to do with structural privilege.

Privilege is how you are treated in a store, in class, by the cop who stops you when you run a red light. Privilege is seeing some version of yourself or your group in every elite echelon in society. Privilege is that you don't even think you belong to a group because after all, your group is normal; it's only minority culture that is exotic and distinct. Now, the one exception here is that you're female, and patriarchy is a strong barrier to all women and I'm sure doubly hard in the sciences, but that doesn't address the issues in the article that you refuse to grasp.

The woman who wrote the article may have had loving parents and a wealthy home, and it still doesn't change the fact that she saw in Kristi a symbol of breaking a barrier she had internalized. Because the barrier, in terms of being an outsider to the dominant white culture every time she looked in the mirror, was real.

 

[meggonzo]

All these supposed "facts" about "white persons" seem like the result of *your* own "unconscious assumptions" about race and privilege, rather than anything to do with me.

It's not about you dr. frog, but the collective you as white people. And white privilege is somewhat about unconscious assumptions. White privilege is not necessarily a bad thing, but you can't deny that it exists whether you think you are involved or not. Google it and learn.

The reason why Yamaguchi's background seems privileged to me indeed has nothing to do with money. The thing is, her parents and other adults in her life actively encouraged and supported her to reach her goals, starting from a very young age. When I was growing up, my parents told me that my goals were inappropriate or impossible, treated me like a freak, and generally seemed to do everything possible to discourage me from pursuing a career in math or the hard sciences. I was always the misfit and outlier; I had no role models; and I had no special privileges.

So if you were Asian and felt different from everyone in your community and you also had your same circumstances growing up, wouldn't you feel good seeing an Asian American succeed and having a role model to identify with?! It's like you didn't even read the article.

 

[burntBREAD]

I wish I had the luxury of disassociating myself from my skin color and ethnic background

I didn't know anyone could've possibly taken this article in any kind of negative light but I guess there it is. I think everyone else has already done an excellent job explaining the importance of an Asian American achieving mainstream success in a society where TODAY, Emma Stone is cast as an Asian American character in a movie set in Hawaii, or where racial jokes about Jeremy Lin permeating the entire mainstream media are completely ignored, or how Asian Americans are more often seen as little more than "model minorities" and used as a device to place them in conflict with other minority groups. But if you seriously think America or the world was color blind in 1992 - much less now in 2016 - I gotta say it must be a fantastic viewpoint from your lofty perch. Not trying to discredit your own experiences, which are very important, but you speak of your parents giving you no support and putting you down. Well, for many minority groups in America, including Asian Americans, it's been the whole society that has participated in the marginalization and suppression.

 

[dr.frog]

Privilege is how you are treated in a store, in class, by the cop who stops you when you run a red light. Privilege is seeing some version of yourself or your group in every elite echelon in society. Privilege is that you don't even think you belong to a group because after all, your group is normal; it's only minority culture that is exotic and distinct.

I don't see too many frogs in every elite echelon in society. And I *know* I am not "normal"! I think this thread is just further proof of that -- the distinctions between humans of different races seem trivial when your self-image is that you belong to a different *species*....

 

[dr.frog]

I wish I had the luxury of disassociating myself from my skin color and ethnic background

It is easy to do. When you get census or employment or similar forms that ask you to check off your race or ethnicity, check "decline to answer", "other", or write in "HUMAN". Ta-da! You have officially promoted yourself to being a plain ol' Homo sapiens instead of marginalizing yourself as only a member of some subgroup of humans.

 

[Aerobicidal]

It is easy to do. When you get census or employment or similar forms that ask you to check off your race or ethnicity, check "decline to answer", "other", or write in "HUMAN". Ta-da! You have officially promoted yourself to being a plain ol' Homo sapiens instead of marginalizing yourself as only a member of some subgroup of humans.

So if I tell people I'm queer, I'm responsible for marginalizing myself? I guess I've been a raging homophobe for most of my life after all! Thanks for showing me who the real enemy is.

 

[overedge]

It is easy to do. When you get census or employment or similar forms that ask you to check off your race or ethnicity, check "decline to answer", "other", or write in "HUMAN". Ta-da! You have officially promoted yourself to being a plain ol' Homo sapiens instead of marginalizing yourself as only a member of some subgroup of humans.

Please tell me you didn't just say that. "It's easy to do" by checking off a box on a form? What a horrifically insensitive and clueless statement. Just think, all we had to do to avoid civil rights killings, segregation, apartheid, internment, First Nations residential schools, etc., was for everyone to call themselves "humans" on their census forms . Someone as highly educated as yourself should be embarrassed to say something so stupid.

 

[VGThuy]

In more relevant news, Kristi Yamaguchi loved the piece:

https://twitter.com/kristiyamaguchi/status/715586181044383744

 

[Aerobicidal]

In more relevant news, Kristi Yamaguchi loved the piece:

https://twitter.com/kristiyamaguchi/status/715586181044383744

What a racist! I hope her gold medal gets taken away.

 

[MsZem]

With the exception of FSUers who interact regularly with well known skaters, none of us know what the content of their character is, precisely. We know what they say in interviews and what they put on social media (assuming they do either), which is not the same. Ultimately we cheer for and identify with athletes for all sorts of reasons that might not have much to do with who they are as people, but who they are as competitors, where they come from, etc. And that's perfectly fine.

A young girl in the 1990s would not have known that much about Kristi Yamaguchi, but seeing someone whom she could identify with be successful and inspiring at a point when you need such a role model is the key thing. It seems like the author went on to apply that inspiration in her chosen field, which is also great. It goes without saying that if Kristi had not been talented and dedicated, she would not have been in the position to inspire. But taking that approach hardly makes for interesting reading.

I won't pretend that skating is perfect, but I like that it's an international sport with successful athletes of diverse backgrounds. I think there's still a lot work to do in making skating more accessible, and I hope that there will be skaters who can inspire that as Kristi did.

 

[rjblue]

I don't see too many frogs in every elite echelon in society. And I *know* I am not "normal"! I think this thread is just further proof of that -- the distinctions between humans of different races seem trivial when your self-image is that you belong to a different *species*....

Are you aware that calling yourself a frog is self identifying as French in any area of the world where French and English speakers coexist? And that it is really offensive to many francophones.

Minor anecdote - my family had a cookie we made each Christmas and we called them frogs, but after my sister married an Acadian man, we changed the name to haystacks. The only appropriate use of frog in New Brunswick is to refer to an amphibian.

 

[VGThuy]

Here's the NBC Asian-America article on the Shibutanis I spoke about earlier:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...ibutani-siblings-stand-together-new-u-n504756

Here some relevant quotes:

"For us, there weren't too many brother-sister teams we could look up to, in addition to there not being a lot of people that look like us who were doing ice dancing," Alex said.

"There have always been strong roots in Asia for singles skating, so what we're trying to do is get something started for ice dance," Maia said.

From some in-person fan reports that I've read here and on Goldenskate at 4CC, Maia and Alex were pretty huge there and made sure to take the time to sign and talk to every fan waiting for an autograph. Some of the reports said that a lot of the little kids (especially girls) particularly loved Maia and saw her as a "princess". I think just having someone who looked like Maia succeed in ice dance and shows that she can win in that discipline did a lot for those little girls.

I also saw that they follow a blog I follow on Twitter called Angry Asian Man, who talks about racial-tinged subjects in his perspective as an Asian-American. So to them, they identify with a lot of the issues that Nicole Chung talked about in her NYTimes Tweet.

And here's a Buzzfeed write up about why Michelle Kwan is the hero Asians Needed by Cathy Ngo who talks about Michelle Kwan as an Asian image and all the non-racial stuff as to why she was awesome for many (since that's a big deal for some).

http://www.buzzfeed.com/cathyngo/michelle-kwan-forever#.niOMYjQ41r

 

[Tinami Amori]

I do no think too many "whites" are proud of other "whites" in terms of "race". .

I do see, read, hear, for example, how Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Russian-Americans, German-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans, Insert-European-Origin-Americans, are proud of success of people from "their own group". Further more, i also see, read, hear that any person who identifies with ANY type of group, when seeing a member of "that group" succeed, usually feels proud.

Has any one been around American-Scandinavian hockey fans, when there is an important game between Sweden/Finland/Norway (in any combination)?
White or not, you do not want to be sitting in between Norwegian and Swedish Americans when those countries' teams are playing....
https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/2qc2qf/why_is_sweden_good_finland_decent_norway_bad_and/

 

[dr.frog]

Please tell me you didn't just say that. "It's easy to do" by checking off a box on a form? What a horrifically insensitive and clueless statement. Just think, all we had to do to avoid civil rights killings, segregation, apartheid, internment, First Nations residential schools, etc., was for everyone to call themselves "humans" on their census forms . Someone as highly educated as yourself should be embarrassed to say something so stupid.

I am deadly serious about this. Here is an article on this very subject that appeared in a scholarly Computer Science journal in 1989 about one computer scientist's long campaign to self-classify himself as a "mongrel". It's quite long, but almost entirely non-technical, and quite funny.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/pub/les/mongrel

Here are a few quotes:

My vision of the future is a colorblind society. I know that we will
not reach it in my lifetime because old habits die hard. In fact, we
will never entirely escape this problem because of a peculiarity of
human nature: wherever there are distinguishable groups of people,
tribal instincts can take root and turn it into an ``us'' versus
``them'' situation. This phenomenon is not just racially based -- if
you have any doubt, attend a high school basketball game and observe
the fans on both sides.

There was a short time in the mid-'60s when I thought we were headed
in the right direction. Essentially all of the legal underpinnings of
racial discrimination had been knocked out of the law books. Then
certain anti-discrimination forces mobilized, claiming that it was
insufficient to simply outlaw discrimination. They believed that it
was also necessary to measure it statistically by classifying
everyone.

[...]

Many people have quietly resisted the persistent nonsense of racial
classification by either refusing to answer such questions or by
listing themselves as ``human.'' Over the last 25 years, I have
consistently answered ``mongrel.'' In order to turn back the
classifiers, I believe that it will be necessary to form an
identifiable movement with a distinctive title. As long as we're
choosing a name, why not identify with the long term winners? I
propose USA Mongrels.

I invite others to join in self-declassification, with the hope and
expectation that the bureaucrats and politicians will eventually be
forced to quit playing with this issue and will recognize that the
United States of America is a nation of egalitarian mongrels. I
believe that we will all be better off. So will the computers.

Back in 1989, I decided this made sense -- classifying people by race is just an excuse for bigotry. So I refuse to play along, and I invite and encourage others to refuse to give their sanction to it, as well.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Anyway, the “sensitivity” sometimes is overdone…. Any one likes the recent TV Sitcom Hit “Fresh off the Boat”? This is better than "Curb Your Enthusiasm".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7vb9mkyRo8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eObXeX9_Eo&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6AnEKjDQ9M

 

[dr.frog]

Are you aware that calling yourself a frog is self identifying as French in any area of the world where French and English speakers coexist? And that it is really offensive to many francophones.

I am sorry if francophones are offended, but I certainly ought to have the right to call myself by the usual word in *my* native language for a green leaping amphibian. FWIW, I originally got the nickname because I had "frog eyes" as a child -- I had to wear glasses, and you know how nasty children can be about calling others names. I was such a weirdo anyway that it seemed better to claim the intended insult as my own particular identity and badge of honor.

 

[nikjil]

Dr. Frog

It's easy to see that you have never been in a situation where you are constantly seen as "other," "different" and that those things equal bad. As an adolescent, I was the only Jew in my public jr-sr high school. At the worst I was asked to show my horns, told I killed Christ (by both faculty and students), at best I was always having to explain myself and fight with the school about not scheduling things like final exams on major Jewish holidays, not having Christian prayer at school events, etc. It was enormously important to me to see successful Jews in show business, sports, politics. I treasured every depiction of a non-stereotypical Jewish character in tv or movies (less than you think, given how many behind-the-scenes folk in Hollywood are Jewish). When the television show Brooklyn Bridge was on it was must-see viewing for my family. When you feel marginalized it is extremely important to see prominent people who are like you because it gives you hope for your future.

 

[FunnyBut]

I am deadly serious about this. Here is an article on this very subject that appeared in a scholarly Computer Science journal in 1989 about one computer scientist's long campaign to self-classify himself as a "mongrel". It's quite long, but almost entirely non-technical, and quite funny.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/pub/les/mongrel

Here are a few quotes:



Back in 1989, I decided this made sense -- classifying people by race is just an excuse for bigotry. So I refuse to play along, and I invite and encourage others to refuse to give their sanction to it, as well.

Enjoy your life as a pretend-amphibian in a perfect White Castle. Stick to Figure Skating topics, you're much better with them.

 

[Simone411]

I am sorry if francophones are offended, but I certainly ought to have the right to call myself by the usual word in *my* native language for a green leaping amphibian. FWIW, I originally got the nickname because I had "frog eyes" as a child -- I had to wear glasses, and you know how nasty children can be about calling others names. I was such a weirdo anyway that it seemed better to claim the intended insult as my own particular identity and badge of honor.

Heck, I had to wear braces had thick dark eyebrows at one point in time, weird curly hair that I couldn't do a thing with, grew exceedingly fast to 5'7" and was gaulky looking in high school all along with my olive complexion.

When I got out of high school, I matured, grew up and instead of being such an ugly duckling like I was in high school, I became a swan and freaked everyone out at my 10 year high school reunion. I was Da Bomb, babe!

Don't come to this forum and talk about how hard you had it, about stereotypes, and that you're possibly messed up because of it. Honey, look around. You're not the only one that's had it hard in this world. You didn't have to accept what you were called, and I didn't have to accept the fact that I would always be that ugly duckling, and also looked down upon. I didn't, and turned out to be a swan.

There are several here that had to fight the same fight with name calling, prejudices, and they made it because they didn't give up. If you've come here because you wanted attention, well it looks like you got it. So Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! and Whee!!! Hope you're happy now. Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay and give you a jelly bean!

 

[dr.frog]

Dr. Frog

It's easy to see that you have never been in a situation where you are constantly seen as "other," "different" and that those things equal bad.

It's easy to see that you are blind as a bat. It may not have had anything to do with my skin color, but I was constantly seen and treated as a weirdo when I was growing up. And I haven't even started on things like e.g. when I started my first job as an engineer and my co-workers used to come around to my cube to gawk at me because I was the first [whatever] hired into a group of about 40 [non-whatevers] and they had never seen or heard of a [whatever] engineer before. I think I know damn well what it means to be marginalized because of things that other people see but that you don't even think of as part of your personal identity.

 

[Simone411]

@dr.frog I should mention that I'm disabled now with a bad leg. In the past couple of years, I've been made fun of in public because of how I now walk and use a walker. I've realized just how cruel some people can be. That hasn't stopped me, either. It's just made me feel sorry for the people that made fun of me.

You have to learn how to cope with such stuff as this because you are an important person whether you realize it or not.

 

[Yazmeen]

Dr. Frog:

For the record, I was a teased and tormented, unpopular nerd girl from 5th grade up through high school. So I know how that feels. Once I got to college, I started to make friends who hadn't picked on me for years, and while I've had times when I felt like an outcast since then, I have worked through them and not allowed them to weigh me down throughout my life. I'm hoping what I write below might provide you a little different perspective on how our life experiences shape us in how we think of and react to other people.

I'm pushing 60, and when I became a doctor (graduated 33 years ago), women doctors were a growing group but still not as common as they are today. I tended to look up to many doctors who were women because they helped me over many of the obstacles I encountered, including sexism from males in the profession. So, yes, I identified with some of them far more than their male counterparts. But I guess, according to what you have been saying here, I should have been "gender-blind" in the early days of my profession and not felt that women were frequently helping me more than men because we identified with each other as women.

Fast forward to today. I left practice more than a decade ago, and have been in the medical communications/medical education space since then, more than 3 years as a freelance medical director/writer. And here's the rub: during that period, I can honestly admit that the most difficult people I had as supervisors or main clients when I worked full time in this industry, were women. For example, in one case, the woman who hired me left the first med comm I worked in before I got there, and the woman who took her place obviously did not want me there (I had a higher level medical degree) and made my life a living hell until I quit. Meanwhile, I have extremely fond memories of 3 male supervisors I worked with and I freelance for them to this day. But do these experiences invalidate the positive effects I've had with the women who mentored me? Did they make me think men are better supervisors than women? Hell no, I look at all these experiences in the context of where I was then and how they fit into my life and helped shape me to be the person I am today. And I'm not "gender-blind," I never will be as a woman who grew up during the height of the feminist movement, especially not seeing the way some people are trying to curb freedoms for women due to their politics, religion, or personal version of "morality."

The author of that article did not attempt to just "define" Kristi by her race/ethnicity, she was instead pointing out how few role models she had as a young girl who were Asian like her. Just like I depended on female role models in my early days in medicine. And that's not racist, biased, or offensive in any way. It's searching finding people who are like you in some way and may have experienced what you have experienced and could provide a pathway for your growth or success.

And one final thing - my take on reading your posts is frankly that you have been and are still very strongly negatively impacted by your experiences when you were young, and you seem to be insisting that certain aspects of a person should not be used as part of better understanding them as a shield against your hurt. And we can't help with you that.

 

[meggonzo]

I am deadly serious about this. Here is an article on this very subject that appeared in a scholarly Computer Science journal in 1989 about one computer scientist's long campaign to self-classify himself as a "mongrel". It's quite long, but almost entirely non-technical, and quite funny.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/pub/les/mongrel

Here are a few quotes:



Back in 1989, I decided this made sense -- classifying people by race is just an excuse for bigotry. So I refuse to play along, and I invite and encourage others to refuse to give their sanction to it, as well.

I think you have good intentions with this, but it's still not productive to deny that different races and cultures exist. Or to be dismissive of the author's experience because she identified with a role model of the same race. It's not necessarily negative to acknowledge that there are different races -- I feel like sometimes people don't want to acknowledge because of fear of being racist or discriminatory but you can't paint everyone with a broad brush either.

Also, I disagree with your statement that "classifying people by race is just an excuse for bigotry". It can actually be useful in healthcare since some races are more pre-disposed to certain chronic diseases. So do you think it would be better for a doctor to ignore a person's race and give them the same treatment as anyone else, or would you rather have that doctor be aware of risk factors for that race and treat the patient accordingly? It would be inappropriate for a healthcare provider to give poor care or discriminate against a patient because of their race, but that is not what is happening here.