Was This Personal or Professional: (UHC CEO murder)

[Rob]

@Jenny I was not aware the story about DWTS was not true. But by all means be snarky.

Ezra Sosa was partnered with convicted felon con artist Anna Delvey last season. She is out on parole after serving less than 4 years of her 4-12 year sentence. Sosa bears a slight physical resemblance to Mangione. That is why he was joking about being partnered with another soon to be felon. There is no way the case will be over and if convicted, Mangione will not be paroled.

Mangione has a new lawyer. Family must have stepped up. https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/13/us/luigi-mangione-new-york-attorney-retained/index.html

 

[BittyBug]

Mangione has a new lawyer. Family must have stepped up. https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/13/us/luigi-mangione-new-york-attorney-retained/index.html

An article I read earlier suggested that his current attorney is only admitted to the bar in PA, so Mangione would necessarily need a new attorney if he were extradited. And while his family is probably the most likely sponsor of his new counsel, with the visibility of this case, it could very well be someone else too.

 

[emason]

I had some out patient surgery yesterday. Boy, did I get an earful from the medical staff while I was face down on the operating table having the procedure. Doctor, nurses, assistants were railing against the system; they all seemed sympathetic to Mangione and one nurse outright said she was ready to revolt, implying that a revolution in the streets couldn’t come soon enough. These folks were not kidding around. (Anesthetic was local, so I was perfectly conscious snd not imagining this.)

 

[Vagabond]

I had some out patient surgery yesterday. Boy, did I get an earful from the medical staff while I was face down on the operating table having the procedure. Doctor, nurses, assistants were railing against the system; they all seemed sympathetic to Mangione and one nurse outright said she was ready to revolt, implying that a revolution in the streets couldn’t come soon enough. These folks were not kidding around. (Anesthetic was local, so I was perfectly conscious snd not imagining this.)

Report them. Such discussions in a patient's presence are completely inappropriate.

 

[emason]

I agree it’s totally inappropriate, but I’ll let it pass; I was too fascinated by what I was hearing.

I’ve had a lot of health issues in the last few years and the nearest I’ve come to reporting someone was the ambulance-chasing intern who came around with my medical team on rounds one morning. I was at a hospital in Forest Hills, Queens (where I lived) instead of the one in Manhattan (where my doctors all happen to be). This idiot kept pressing me to drop my NYC doctors because “there are plenty of good doctors in Forest Hills.” If this jerk had opened his mouth one more time I was ready to call him out in front of the attending and everyone else. Luckily this was the last I saw of him.

 

[sk9tingfan]

I agree it’s totally inappropriate, but I’ll let it pass; I was too fascinated by what I was hearing.

I’ve had a lot of health issues in the last few years and the nearest I’ve come to reporting someone was the ambulance-chasing intern who came around with my medical team on rounds one morning. I was at a hospital in Forest Hills, Queens (where I lived) instead of the one in Manhattan (where my doctors all happen to be). This idiot kept pressing me to drop my NYC doctors because “there are plenty of good doctors in Forest Hills.” If this jerk had opened his mouth one more time I was ready to call him out in front of the attending and everyone else. Luckily this was the last I saw of him.

Wow!

 

[Vagabond]

 

[MacMadame]

I had some out patient surgery yesterday. Boy, did I get an earful from the medical staff while I was face down on the operating table having the procedure. Doctor, nurses, assistants were railing against the system; they all seemed sympathetic to Mangione and one nurse outright said she was ready to revolt, implying that a revolution in the streets couldn’t come soon enough. These folks were not kidding around. (Anesthetic was local, so I was perfectly conscious snd not imagining this.)

There have been so many stories being told about how the our medical system has failed people. Here is one:

My sister needed the right wheelchair to survive. Insurance refused it till the end

My mother’s love and resilience helped my sister through a rare condition. But every step in her 17-year life was a fight with health insurers

www.theguardian.com

 

[BlueRidge]

But did this murder really have anything to do with the problems of our health care system?

 

[MacMadame]

But did this murder really have anything to do with the problems of our health care system?

The dude has a manifesto (according to the police, not that fake one online) about how he had to do this because our healthcare system sucked, so yes.

 

[BlueRidge]

The dude has a manifesto (according to the police, not that fake one online) about how he had to do this because our healthcare system sucked, so yes.

So violence should drive our discourse?

The guy's manifesto was political, not personal by the way. So if one wants to get one's political ideas talked about, shoot someone?

 

[MacMadame]

So violence should drive our discourse?

The guy's manifesto was political, not personal by the way. So if one wants to get one's political ideas talked about, shoot someone?

WTF? You asked if this had anything to do with our healthcare system and I said it did because the guy said that's why he did it. So apparently answering a question means I think vigilante judge is okay and everyone should do it?

 

[BlueRidge]

WTF? You asked if this had anything to do with our healthcare system and I said it did because the guy said that's why he did it. So apparently answering a question means I think vigilante judge is okay and everyone should do it?

No I don't think that you think vigilante justice is okay, but why do you think that we should discuss this guy's "manifesto" just because he shot someone?

I don't think we should and when we do it certainly encourages copy cat crimes. There is plenty of time to talk about the problems with health care, when someone shoots someone it seems to me that the topics that might come to mind would be gun violence and lone wolf shooters.

 

[MacMadame]

No I don't think that you think vigilante justice is okay, but why do you think that we should discuss this guy's "manifesto" just because he shot someone?

Where did I say, let's discuss this? I answered your question. That's it.

 

[BlueRidge]

You posted about our health care system in the post above the one where I asked the question. The fact that posters were discussing health care in this thread about the shooting was why I asked the question.

I don't think the shooting was about health insurance at all, and I don't think the shooter's manifesto proves that it was, only that he created a manifesto to justify his crime.

ETA: We do have a thread to discuss the problems with health care in the US. Its here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/healthcare-the-horror-of-it-all.110563/

 

[BittyBug]

I don't think the shooting was about health insurance at all,

You may not, but it seems that many, many, many Americans do, including the CEO of United Health Group, who wrote an op ed for the NY Times about fixing our broken healthcare system.

and I don't think the shooter's manifesto proves that it was, only that he created a manifesto to justify his crime.

I suppose that's a theory, but it seems quite a stretch to me. You think he just randomly decided to kill this guy and then made up a reason after the fact?

 

[BlueRidge]

You may not, but it seems that many, many, many Americans do, including the CEO of United Health Group, who wrote an op ed for the NY Times about fixing our broken healthcare system.

I suppose that's a theory, but it seems quite a stretch to me. You think he just randomly decided to kill this guy and then made up a reason after the fact?

No, I think he was disaffected with society more than he was specifically concerned about health insurance, it was just one aspect of his disaffection and he decided to target a health insurance executive so that's what he put in his manifesto. But ultimately his act was against the society as a whole.

And yes I know he committed murder and got everyone talking about the issue of health insurance since he killed a health insurance executive and had a manifesto about it. I think that's really not a good thing and I honestly think people should be talking about guns, lone wolf murderers, and violence because those are the issues this situation raises directly.

 

[MacMadame]

We can talk about two things at once. Or more.

 

[BlueRidge]

We can talk about two things at once. Or more.

My question is why are we talking about it here.

Why is this guy's manifesto dictating what we discuss? It gives the impression that if you want to get political attention, violence works.

 

[BittyBug]

It gives the impression that if you want to get political attention, violence works.

It clearly did in this case. Why are you trying to deny it?

ETA: You seem to think that the manifesto was made up after the fact. Are you forgetting that he etched 'Delay,' 'Deny' and something else (the reporting differs - some sources say 'Defend,' while some say 'Depose') on the bullets?

 

[BlueRidge]

It clearly did in this case. Why are you trying to deny it?

ETA: You seem to think that the manifesto was made up after the fact. Are you forgetting that he etched 'Delay,' 'Deny' and something else (the reporting differs - some sources say 'Defend,' while some say 'Depose') on the bullets?

Violence works.

How do you feel about the implications of that?

I don't care about what he etched in bullet casings or what his manifesto said about health care. I'm concerned about more people deciding to engage in this kind of behavior. We already had an attempt on Donald Trump's life this summer, and we continually have mass shootings. I don't want to see more political violence added to that.

That's why I asked the question to begin with. But people disagree so they will continue to discuss what they think is appropriate. Okay.

ETA: for me I don't think we talk enough about and against vigilante violence, I think Luigi Mangione is of the same ilk as Daniel Penny and these crimes are very disturbing.

 

[Prancer]

Violence works.

Shocking events cause people to look for reasons why the shocking events occurred. And as with everything, we all have our own ideas about reasons.

There is a difference IMO between saying that Mangione's actions and the response to it are indications of just how angry people are about health insurance in this country and saying that Mangione was justified in killing the CEO. People romanticize outlaws; there's a lot literature on why that is so, but it's most commonly because the outlaws attack systems that people find cruel and oppressive. Most people do understand that vigilantism itself is wrong; it's the symbolism that they find appealing.

 

[BlueRidge]

Shocking events cause people to look for reasons why the shocking events occurred. And as with everything, we all have our own ideas about reasons.

There is a difference IMO between saying that Mangione's actions and the response to it are indications of just how angry people are about health insurance in this country and saying that Mangione was justified in killing the CEO. People romanticize outlaws; there's a lot literature on why that is so, but it's most commonly because the outlaws attack systems that people find cruel and oppressive. Most people do understand that vigilantism itself is wrong; it's the symbolism that they find appealing.

well yes, and I find that disturbing and am concerned about (not posts here) some of the reactions encouraging more acts of violence, which manifestly will not make things better in any way.

Anyway, Mangione was not an outlaw, if his act was political which it seems to be in a vague way, he's a terrorist. Hopefully that is not so romantic.

 

[Prancer]

well yes, and I find that disturbing and am concerned about (not posts here) some of the reactions encouraging more acts of violence, which manifestly will not make things better in any way.

I understand that. But that doesn't seem to happen often because, again, people DO understand that vigilante justice is wrong.

If nothing else, seeing how quickly people like Mangione are caught is cautionary; there's a difference between admiring someone as a martyr and wanting to be a martyr yourself.

Anyway, Mangione was not an outlaw, if his act was political which it seems to be in a vague way, he's a terrorist.

Or not. Terrorist seems to be a very subjective term.

 

[Sparks]

I really want to say something about Daniel Penny being invited to a football game with Trump and Vance.

Yes, violence works

 

[BlueRidge]

I really want to say something about Daniel Penny being invited to a football game with Trump and Vance.

Yes, violence works

And apparently more than a few people don't seem to understand that vigilante violence is wrong.

 

[BlueRidge]

If nothing else, seeing how quickly people like Mangione are caught is cautionary; there's a difference between admiring someone as a martyr and wanting to be a martyr yourself.

I feel we've seen enough evidence of people admiring shooters then themselves engaging in mass shooting that I'm not so confident that this won't inspire more.

 

[Sparks]

And apparently more than a few people don't seem to understand that vigilante violence is wrong.

Exactly. Neither one of them should be glorified, yet...

 

[SkateSand]

deleted - my post probably belonged in PI.

 

[Rob]

This is one more event that has emboldened people to reveal their anger about our various systems. Anger about people being left behind in one way or another. The violence clearly resonates with them because it does get the attention they crave. Someone said what they were thinking, but didn’t have the guts to say. Someone did what they wanted to do even though they never would have done it. This isn’t the first time we have glorified a felon as an independent thinker/problem solver or have vilified career politicians, journalists, businesses who are trying to expose problems and find solutions in a legal or profitable way (regardless of whether we all agree with the proposed solutions). “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore” is not just a line in a movie.