War in Israel

[Vash01]

Israel accidentally fired upon the Egyptians and caused injuries. I know an Egyptian killed Israeli soldiers a few months ago, but somehow I think this will be used against Israel.

Army tank accidentally fires on Egyptian post near Gaza, causing minor injuries

As IDF expresses regret over incident, Egyptian military does not give further details on wounded; matter not expected to disrupt entry of aid into enclave

www.timesofisrael.com

Someone up thread mentioned the hostages should be the first consideration. I agree. Last week, one of the American news network reported the IDF had said the first and last consideration would be destroying with Hamas.

Pressure grows on Israel to negotiate release of Gaza hostages

Families given glimmer of hope by release of two US citizens, but fear time is running out before ground invasion

www.theguardian.com

I tend to agree that the hostages need to be brought home first, and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza food/water, etc. needs to be taken care of before Israeli forces start the full attack on Hamas.

My concern is that Hamas may ask for an exorbitant price for releasing the hostages. They seem to hold all the cards. Both sides know that they want to destroy each other. Is it even possible to have negotiations in good faith?

Earlier I was wondering - what if they call a 2-3 weeks cease fire to take care of the two things - hostages and Gaza? Not sure if something like this is even possible. I know nothing about wars.

 

[Lynn226]

I tend to agree that the hostages need to be brought home first, and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza food/water, etc. needs to be taken care of before Israeli forces start the full attack on Hamas.

My concern is that Hamas may ask for an exorbitant price for releasing the hostages. They seem to hold all the cards. Both sides know that they want to destroy each other. Is it even possible to have negotiations in good faith?

Earlier I was wondering - what if they call a 2-3 weeks cease fire to take care of the two things - hostages and Gaza? Not sure if something like this is even possible. I know nothing about wars.

You're right about Hamas wanting exorbitant demands met in exchange for hostages. And Israel has a history of meeting those demands. That's how the Hamas leader, Sinwar, gained his freedom.

Difficult choices, for sure.

 

[PRlady]

What’s awful is the revenge-minded Israelis attacking the hostages’ families for wanting to delay the invasion until they get their relatives back!

 

[Lynn226]

What’s awful is the revenge-minded Israelis attacking the hostages’ families for wanting to delay the invasion until they get their relatives back!

That is terrible and uncalled for. I've noticed that both American media and English language Israeli media don't mention the hostages very much. Do you think some Israelis think there isn't much chance the hostages will return?

 

[PRlady]

That is terrible and uncalled for. I've noticed that both American media and English language Israeli media don't mention the hostages very much. Do you think some Israelis think there isn't much chance the hostages will return?

Having traded 1000 Palestinian prisoners, including the current head of Hamas, for one soldier several years ago, Israelis realize that the value they place on hostages is a trap that just encourages Hamas to kidnap people. Why they’re willing to sacrifice 200 people to kill Hamasniks, though, is a very divisive topic.

Everywhere you go here there are signs in Hebrew that say together we will win. The hostage issue divides that (tenuous) unity. What does unify people is the belief that this government doesn’t care about the civilians held hostage because they came from kibbutzim that don’t vote for Bibi’s party. A more damning indictment of this “leadership” would be hard to find.

 

[starrynight]

It’s useful getting the perspective of people actually from the region here.

I’ve read many opinion pieces like this one from international journalists who I don’t think are comprehending the impact of the Hamas terror attacks on the situation and are still stuck in thinking from a previous time.

Lots of articles that I think are written for the western gaze. If only the situation was as simple as handing back Gaza and the West Bank and the terror would just stop. And I’m not sure Hamas and the IRA are analogous because there’s a really different cultural/religious grounding behind those two groups.

 

[Lynn226]

Having traded 1000 Palestinian prisoners, including the current head of Hamas, for one soldier several years ago, Israelis realize that the value they place on hostages is a trap that just encourages Hamas to kidnap people. Why they’re willing to sacrifice 200 people to kill Hamasniks, though, is a very divisive topic.

Everywhere you go here there are signs in Hebrew that say together we will win. The hostage issue divides that (tenuous) unity. What does unify people is the belief that this government doesn’t care about the civilians held hostage because they came from kibbutzim that don’t vote for Bibi’s party. A more damning indictment of this “leadership” would be hard to find.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I've heard in American media that the families of the hostages feel poorly treated by Bibi. It must be a truly horrific situation for the families. The Israeli hostages themselves must be thinking about this, too.

One father felt relief when he learned his young daughter had died. I can't even begin to imagine how he is coping.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/11/israel-father-reaction-daughter-killed-kibbutz-hamas-attack-clarissa-ward-dnt-nn-vpx.cnn

 

[PRlady]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I've heard in American media that the families of the hostages feel poorly treated by Bibi. It must be a truly horrific situation for the families. The Israeli hostages themselves must be thinking about this, too.

One father felt relief when he learned his young daughter had died. I can't even begin to imagine how he is coping.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/11/israel-father-reaction-daughter-killed-kibbutz-hamas-attack-clarissa-ward-dnt-nn-vpx.cnn

I saw that whole interview (in English, he’s Anglo) on Israeli TV. It’s one of the most heartbreaking interviews I’ve ever seen. As a grandmom who would walk through fire to save my grandkids, what he said was the most terrible thing imaginable.

 

[TAHbKA]

That is terrible and uncalled for. I've noticed that both American media and English language Israeli media don't mention the hostages very much. Do you think some Israelis think there isn't much chance the hostages will return?

I think there is almost no chance they will be returned. Some of them are probably already dead. Some of them were tortured, raped and then taken as hostages. Some of them are babies who need a formula etc. Somehow I doubt the hamas kindergartens are that great. Some of them are solders, so I can't even imagine what torture they are going through now (and reminder: in Israel the solder is any kid aged 18-20. Including the 3 of us some 20+ years ago).

 

[PRlady]

I think there is almost no chance they will be returned. Some of them are probably already dead. Some of them were tortured, raped and then taken as hostages. Some of them are babies who need a formula etc. Somehow I doubt the hamas kindergartens are that great. Some of them are solders, so I can't even imagine what torture they are going through now (and reminder: in Israel the solder is any kid aged 18-20. Including the 3 of us some 20+ years ago).

Almost any kid.

DH and I took a drive through the Judea Hills and because I’m a curious type, we crossed the checkpoint and drove through Beitar Elite. It’s a 100% ultra-Orthodox settlement, close to Jerusalem, to provide housing for their growing population and also to make sure they support the settlements politically. (They used to be agnostic on conflict issues; not anymore.) Beitar has the highest birth rate of any locale in the West Bank.

It was the 16th century. Nosy me wanted to stop for coffee but DH pointed out there was not one mixed couple (ie male/female) anywhere to be seen. I was also wearing a sleeveless shirt. So we stayed in the car until my disgusted husband couldn’t take it anymore and left.

Not one of those teenaged or 20-something guys we saw is serving in the army. None are hostages, either. I wonder how many thought those hippie kids at the music festival deserved their fate, out dancing and trancing on the Sabbath.

 

[Buzz]

This is disgusting. Pro Palestinian protesters target a business for having owners who are Jewish.

https://twitter.com/AntisemitismCA/status/1716164454482665895?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

 

[Lynn226]

I think there is almost no chance they will be returned. Some of them are probably already dead. Some of them were tortured, raped and then taken as hostages. Some of them are babies who need a formula etc. Somehow I doubt the hamas kindergartens are that great. Some of them are solders, so I can't even imagine what torture they are going through now (and reminder: in Israel the solder is any kid aged 18-20. Including the 3 of us some 20+ years ago).

Thank you for sharing your perspective, as well. It's a truly tragic situation for everyone involved.

 

[Judy]

I saw that whole interview (in English, he’s Anglo) on Israeli TV. It’s one of the most heartbreaking interviews I’ve ever seen. As a grandmom who would walk through fire to save my grandkids, what he said was the most terrible thing imaginable.

I saw that interview within the last 10 days. i can’t watch it again .

 

[Lynn226]

Reports coming in that two more hostages have been freed. No confirmed sightings yet.

Oct. 23: Elderly hostages brought by helicopter to Tel Aviv hospital

Ichilov nurse says Nurit Cooper, Yocheved Lifshitz appear in good health * IDF strikes rocket squads in southern Lebanon for 4th time in day * US sends military advisers to Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[skategal]

Reports coming in that two more hostages have been freed. No confirmed sightings yet.

Oct. 23: Elderly hostages brought by helicopter to Tel Aviv hospital

Ichilov nurse says Nurit Cooper, Yocheved Lifshitz appear in good health * IDF strikes rocket squads in southern Lebanon for 4th time in day * US sends military advisers to Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

CBC news identified the two women released. Red Cross confirms.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-hostage-release-1.7005330

 

[Lacey]

CBC news identified the two women released. Red Cross confirms.

Their names, per CBC, are Nurit Yitzhak and Yocheved Lifshitz, the latter whose husband was also kidnapped and is still there according to their daughter.

WOW, their ages, just WOW, they looked fine--hugged each other as apparently they went in separate trucks or ambulances--but they are old, poor things, imagine! What bravery!

 

[Vash01]

I think there is almost no chance they will be returned. Some of them are probably already dead. Some of them were tortured, raped and then taken as hostages. Some of them are babies who need a formula etc. Somehow I doubt the hamas kindergartens are that great. Some of them are solders, so I can't even imagine what torture they are going through now (and reminder: in Israel the solder is any kid aged 18-20. Including the 3 of us some 20+ years ago).

How awful and tragic!

 

[text_skate]

Same-sex couples recognized under law for bereaved families

Defense Ministry confirms same-sex partners of IDF soldiers killed in war eligible for same benefits as other families

www.timesofisrael.com

Gallant’s confirmation that the benefits available to families of fallen soldiers would also apply to same-sex partners of soldiers killed during the ongoing Operation Swords of Iron comes after Knesset Speaker Amir Ohana requested last Thursday that the matter be clarified.

As I understand it, partner doesn't mean necessarily married

 

[Allskate]

Barack Obama rarely weighs in on current political affairs, so I think it is particularly significant that he has released an extensive statement now. I doubt he would have done so without talking to President Biden first. I can't imagine how difficult it is right now to be President Biden. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes to try to contain the conflict and protect the lives of civilians in the region. This would do more than protect the interests of Israel and the United States. It is such a hard balancing act to try to rein in people from making mistakes while simultaneously not emboldening Iran, Hezbollah, and others to expand the conflict.

Thoughts on Israel and Gaza

It’s been 17 days since Hamas launched its horrific attack against Israel, killing over 1,400 Israeli citizens, including defenseless…

barackobama.medium.com

Spoiler alert: Obama does not say that Hezbollah is smart or that the war would not be happening if he was still president.
He has expressed so many of my own thoughts on this crisis.

 

[TAHbKA]

Same-sex couples recognized under law for bereaved families

Defense Ministry confirms same-sex partners of IDF soldiers killed in war eligible for same benefits as other families

www.timesofisrael.com

As I understand it, partner doesn't mean necessarily married

Right. There are no same sex marriages in Israel. However,there is 'commonly known' status for couples who have been running a shared household for am not sure for how long (5 years?). The deceased Sagi Golan and his fiance Omer Ohana fall under that rule. The question is how long it will hold after the war and whether the army have changed the paperwork (Omer Ohana explicitly says in his interview all the documents are phrased in femenine only).

 

[Vash01]

Barack Obama rarely weighs in on current political affairs, so I think it is particularly significant that he has released an extensive statement now. I doubt he would have done so without talking to President Biden first. I can't imagine how difficult it is right now to be President Biden. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes to try to contain the conflict and protect the lives of civilians in the region. This would do more than protect the interests of Israel and the United States. It is such a hard balancing act to try to rein in people from making mistakes while simultaneously not emboldening Iran, Hezbollah, and others to expand the conflict.

Thoughts on Israel and Gaza

It’s been 17 days since Hamas launched its horrific attack against Israel, killing over 1,400 Israeli citizens, including defenseless…

barackobama.medium.com

Spoiler alert: Obama does not say that Hezbollah is smart or that the war would not be happening if he was still president.
He has expressed so many of my own thoughts on this crisis.

Very good article. I think President Biden will agree with the thoughts expressed in it.

 

[PRlady]

Right. There are no same sex marriages in Israel. However,there is 'commonly known' status for couples who have been running a shared household for am not sure for how long (5 years?). The deceased Sagi Golan and his fiance Omer Ohana fall under that rule. The question is how long it will hold after the war and whether the army have changed the paperwork (Omer Ohana explicitly says in his interview all the documents are phrased in femenine only).

Many Israelis are not legally married because they don’t want to go through the ultra-Orthodox rabbinate even if they’re eligible. So there are a lot of heterosexual partnerships, too.

Our luck ran out on our way back from our last beach trip just now. Loud sirens, everyone pulling over to the side of the road, getting out and lying prone on the gravel. Including us. Sneaking a peek at the sky to see 20 or so contrails from Iron Dome knocking out bombs right over our heads. Loud. An intense experience.

And then everyone got back in their cars and continued to their destinations.

 

[Vash01]

Many Israelis are not legally married because they don’t want to go through the ultra-Orthodox rabbinate even if they’re eligible. So there are a lot of heterosexual partnerships, too.

Our luck ran out on our way back from our last beach trip just now. Loud sirens, everyone pulling over to the side of the road, getting out and lying prone on the gravel. Including us. Sneaking a peek at the sky to see 20 or so contrails from Iron Dome knocking out bombs right over our heads. Loud. An intense experience.

And then everyone got back in their cars and continued to their destinations.

How scary! Glad to hear you are safe.

 

[Hedwig]

I heard that now ultraorthodox Jews are going into the army. Is that correct?
What are your thoughts to that, Tanja, Andrey and PRLady? I am often flabbergasted by what they seemingly get away with just for being religious so I think- first good step. But then I realize how little I know about Israel all in all so maybe my perception is wrong.

One more stupid question about the legal status of Gaza. Does it still belong to Israel? It is self governed afaik but what is the legal status here?

Are there similar areas in the world and how are they treated? Is the legal country there as well responsible for supplies and energy? And why, if it is self governed, has Israel still monitored everything that went in and out? I mean, yes, with the attack now I see what they were afraid of but isnt the closed border also the hindrance to build up real independence? Or was that never the goal and the goal was to get Gaza back?

Please excuse my ignorance and ignore me if you have other worries than to answer my questions

 

[PRlady]

I heard that now ultraorthodox Jews are going into the army. Is that correct?
What are your thoughts to that, Tanja, Andrey and PRLady? I am often flabbergasted by what they seemingly get away with just for being religious so I think- first good step. But then I realize how little I know about Israel all in all so maybe my perception is wrong.

One more stupid question about the legal status of Gaza. Does it still belong to Israel? It is self governed afaik but what is the legal status here?

Are there similar areas in the world and how are they treated? Is the legal country there as well responsible for supplies and energy? And why, if it is self governed, has Israel still monitored everything that went in and out? I mean, yes, with the attack now I see what they were afraid of but isnt the closed border also the hindrance to build up real independence? Or was that never the goal and the goal was to get Gaza back?

Please excuse my ignorance and ignore me if you have other worries than to answer my questions

Some ultraOrthodox are joining, yes. Others are giving blood and volunteering. But somewhere above is my report on our drive through one of their WB settlements yesterday. (Or in other thread.) they are still relatively isolated from the situation.

Gaza was occupied by Egypt and ruled by them from 1948 to 1967, and then occupied and ruled by Israel which settled a small number of Israelis there. It took five soldiers to guard one settler and in 2005 the very right-wing Israeli PM Ariel Sharon withdrew soldiers and settlers and basically said to Gaza, you’re in your own. Two years later they elected Hamas to govern them which is sworn in its charter to destroy Israel, which in turn essentially blockaded Gaza’s borders controlling entry and exit of people and goods. It’s been a miasma of poverty and hatred since then.

I don’t know much about other isolated enclaves surrounded and controlled by adversaries, there’s one in Georgia and until this month in Azerbaijan.

This list gives you a sense of just how controlled Gaza is by Israel: https://gisha.org/en/publication_type/legal-action/
Which isn’t to say that Hamas doesn’t control everything inside, they do, including using billions in international aid for warmaking.

 

[Hedwig]

Thank you!

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I heard that now ultraorthodox Jews are going into the army. Is that correct?
What are your thoughts to that, Tanja, Andrey and PRLady? I am often flabbergasted by what they seemingly get away with just for being religious so I think- first good step. But then I realize how little I know about Israel all in all so maybe my perception is wrong.

I think these are very good news, more in the terms of its symbolism than actual meaning.

From what I hear, the numbers are rather miniscule compared to the population size, and I wouldn't be too surprised to find out these are not super-hardcore Orthodox. I believe they also include these who left the religion but weren't recruited because at 18 they were still in the eshivas. They will mostly do some work at their neighborhoods, such as preparing the shelters and passing the information within the ultra-Orthodox communities. So, yeah, in practical terms doesn't mean much. But it might be super helpful later when the issue of conscription is back on the table.

What is considerably more useful, though, is the Haredi who volunteer, especially at the burial services.

 

[starrynight]

I am so depressed by this conflict.

I wonder if it will just go like this again…

1. Hamas attacks Israeli citizens in a shocking terror attack designed to provoke the maximum response.

2. Hamas retreats into tunnels under Gaza with hostages and civilians to act as human shields.

3. Hamas makes no provision for water, fuel and food for civilians despite long term planning to instigate war

4. Israel responds with air strikes causing huge casualties.

5. International condemnation of Israel and Jews.

6. Conflict ceases due to international pressure on Israel.

7. Billions of dollars of international aid go into Gaza to fund rebuilding and a large amount of this is taken by Hamas.

8. Hamas instigates terror attack against Israel.

9. Start at the beginning.

 

[Lynn226]

I am so depressed by this conflict.

I wonder if it will just go like this again…

1. Hamas attacks Israeli citizens in a shocking terror attack designed to provoke the maximum response.

2. Hamas retreats into tunnels under Gaza with hostages and civilians to act as human shields.

3. Hamas makes no provision for water, fuel and food for civilians despite long term planning to instigate war

4. Israel responds with air strikes causing huge casualties.

5. International condemnation of Israel and Jews.

6. Conflict ceases due to international pressure on Israel.

7. Billions of dollars of international aid go into Gaza to fund rebuilding and a large amount of this is taken by Hamas.

8. Hamas instigates terror attack against Israel.

9. Start at the beginning.

American war ships are in the region and the U.S. hasn't publicly asked Israel to cease fire. Statements coming from American officials have avoided that terminology. Several world leaders have visited the region. So far, it feels different, but everyday seems to bring a new wrench in the wheel.

I know Israel uses targeted assassination. I've always wondered why Hamas hasn't been more subject to such treatment in the past. There were a few targeted assassinations on Hamas prior to October 7, I think.

 

[TAHbKA]

I heard that now ultraorthodox Jews are going into the army. Is that correct?
What are your thoughts to that, Tanja, Andrey and PRLady? I am often flabbergasted by what they seemingly get away with just for being religious so I think- first good step. But then I realize how little I know about Israel all in all so maybe my perception is wrong.

1.5 million ultraorthodox Jews in Israel
1000 volunteered
200 were accepted.
Nice headlines. Hardly anything more.