Vaytsekhovskaya's interview with Irina Slutskaya

In 2002 Olympic FS, i thought Sarah had the "wow" factor in her performance, energy, speed, and expression. I had her in 1st too.... (for same reasons as with Baiul, Lipinski, Sotnikova...:slinkaway)

I don't know about the "wow" factor but I really don't see how, at that time and at that event, anyone could have thought Irina deserved to be in 1st. Some judges did, of course. That to me says the foregone conclusion of some was that Irina would be the winner, not that 1st place was reserved for an American.
 
Sasha's "gypsy" sequence was a) not the right choreo for that part in that song/music (she was doing "russian folk dance steps" instead of "gypsy dance steps", and too few "ethnic steps" all together for "Dark Eyes" over-all),

This might have made a difference to ice dance judges judging an OSP/OD/short dance/rhythm dance. But authenticity of on-ice steps to off-ice dance sources has never been relevant to freeskating, either in the written rules nor, apparently, to singles/pairs judges.

It has been in ice dance.

at 2005 Worlds, where there were clean programs from the ladies in 2nd through 9th, but somehow Irina was in 1st after a botched combo and a spin mistake. It might not have mattered in the long run, as she won the LP by a large amount, in spite of doing too many triple loops - although even there, I think she got the benefit of the doubt, this time from the tech panel, as she should have had her whole triple loop-double loop jumping pass invalidated under the rules at the time, but it appears from the protocols that she still got credit for the double loop.

My recollection is that as of 2005 Worlds the rules were ambiguous about how to handle a combination jump with one of the jumps being a Zayak violation. The following season the rules were rewritten to invalidate the whole combination -- in reaction to that specific example.

(And then just a few years ago the rule was rewritten explicitly to invalidate only the repeated jump.)

(3) According to my memory, URs were already explicitly penalized as early as 2005-06. I remember clearly Shizuka getting shafted out of GP Final by underrotating the flip in the short program at both of her GP events. I also remember Alissa Czisny landing a cheated 3lutz-3toe and only getting credit for a 3-2.

For the first year or two of IJS, underrotated jumps were "downgraded" to the value of the jump with the same takeoff and one fewer revolutions, and the protocols reflected the code for the lower-revolution jump.

That proved to be a problem with keeping track of repeated triple attempts for purposes of the Zayak rule, so the < symbol was introduced as a modifier to the code for the higher revolution jump, to indicate that the revolutions had been attempted, but not achieved. IIRC that symbol was introduced in the 2006 season.

The < downgrade to the value of one fewer revolutions for jumps over 90 degrees short of rotation remained in effect through 2010.

Then the distinction between < and << was introduced starting in 2011 season, with jumps 91 (now 90) to 180 degrees short receiving a lower base value of 70% of the rotated jump, and jumps over 180 degrees still earning the value of one fewer revolutions.

But it is not a cherished tradition when attending most theatrical productions, where there are actual performers present.

Eating snacks during sporting events and performances such as circuses held in big arenas/stadiums is certainly a tradition. For skating performances held in that kind of venue, I'd expect most audience members would default to standards appropriate for those kinds of events and not to behavior expected in an opera house or legitimate theatre.
 
Especially when the arena is more than happy to sell a bottle of water and a pretzel for $10.00 or more.
 
I don't know about the "wow" factor but I really don't see how, at that time and at that event, anyone could have thought Irina deserved to be in 1st. Some judges did, of course. That to me says the foregone conclusion of some was that Irina would be the winner, not that 1st place was reserved for an American.

I feel like it was a foregone conclusion that it "would be" either Michelle or Irina. If Michelle skated her LP like she did at Nats or Worlds and everyone else skated the same, I feel she would have received mostly 1st place ordinals.
 
I was there also, and as a Pair Skater myself, I was shocked by the audience perception and how it was different from a judging perspective. Sale & Pelltier's program was all about side by side skating in unison. They only really touched each other to complete pair elements and their program was not a seamless choreography, i.e. kind of junior level compared to B/S. They had phony facial expressions and kind-of sentimental, cheesy presentation (like the movie).

Has anyone gone back and applied IJS to this competition? I think PCS would give B/S the win, by far.

I admit that I loved Love Story. And to me, Jamie and David had the wow factor. :scream:

However ITA that PCS would give B/S the win, without dispute, with a huge lead after the SP (I never ubered B/S, but that SP was masterful and breathtaking). But that's kind a moot point, as the competition wasn't judged under IJS. Had it been been, S/P would not have skated the same program, or skated it in the same way.

Which brings to mind Yagudin's highly entertaining but largely two-foot footwork in MITIM. I don't know how well that would have done under IJS.
 
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Whatever way it was scored, I think it would have done better than either Plushenko or Goebel. :slinkaway

Yeah, it’s not like many skaters were taking advantage of step sequences back then. Goebel actually had decent ones that season. But I’d guess 80% of the skaters (or even more) just flew through the element in 10 seconds or less, generally just turning in one direction.
 
Whatever way it was scored, I think it would have done better than either Plushenko or Goebel. :slinkaway

Plush's Carmen is probably my favorite Carmen ever, at least among the men. But I had no issue with Yagudin winning at the time.

Goebel was just a fridge break, I'm sorry to say, as in interviews he came across as an incredibly nice and genuine guy.
 
The way I look at it, Yagudin and Plushenko's 6.0 footwork would make for excellent choreographic sequences. Certainly better than the choreographic sequences we see today.
I was not too impressed with Yags or Plushs footworks at the Oly 2002. Yags' foot work in "Gladiator" in the previous season was to die for..
 
I like the old type of footworks those had much more speed and were much more diverse. Much more interesting and fun to watch!

I agree with Japanfan Yagudin was better in 2002 he deserved the victory. I had no problem with it but I was a great fan of Plush already.
 
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I agree with Japanfan Yagudin was better in 2002 he deserved the victory. I had no problem with it but I was a great fan of Plush already.

I digress to say that Plush's folk dance is my favorite program of his - particularly the time he made mistakes and then started spontaneously changing/throwing in elements, with a very upset Mishin yelling at him from the boards.
 
I digress to say that Plush's folk dance is my favorite program of his - particularly the time he made mistakes and then started spontaneously changing/throwing in elements, with a very upset Mishin yelling at him from the boards.
Those were the days...
 
I thought this was a good interview. I don't read any bitterness, just memories and her perspective. . And S/P 's medal should have been silver
 
Dem's are fighting words.

I hope Isabelle covers her ears.

They are more empty words than fighting words IMHO.
If you don't like the North American style you'll dislike everyone who trains within it.

Having said that what I do appreciate about many of the RUS and EUR pairs is the sheer speed and power in the SS and across many elements. WRT to B/E I became quite frustrated by how their skating slowed down to a screeching halt in 93 and 94 as their programs become more aesthetic. Compare to, say, their short in 92 in Oakland - much more attack and excitement to their skating.... and something that sadly dissipated after that season.
 
I thought this was a good interview. I don't read any bitterness, just memories and her perspective. . And S/P 's medal should have been silver

Agree on the interview especially. I don't find Russians to be as mean-spirited as others seem to feel. I think they just tell it like it is because their audience at home is likely less sensitive to what we find in the west. Their interviews are consequently not a series of cliches and crafted narratives.

S/P would have held at silver if this was world's. But as I recall reading, the skating scandal/admission of cheating embarassed the Olympic movement on this very public stage. If memory serves, the IOC then and there challenged the ISU to fix this problem or risk having future participation in the Olympics be formally questioned (which in truth would likely never happen as one of the biggest audience drivers, but I digress). The dual golds and IJS were the result.

My takeaway here is that those who would have kept S/P at silver represent a material portion of the overall figure skating universe that has accepted that cheating, collusion and subjective marking are all generally accepted with the sport -- values that are not shared by the broader sporting community.

This DNA in skating is a part of what limits the audience for an otherwise appealing sport; generalized sports fans cannot respect a sport for which results are only partially driven by what happens on the playing field and more by backroom deals and/or the lattitude among a judging panel to just pick who you want. From an outsiders' perspective, eligible skating is pure entertainment fluff with a number of miles to go to earn the credibility of a real sport, in their eyes.

If that problem could ever be fixed, the opportunities for skating would be almost limitless.
 
I find both "west" and "east" audiences are comfortable with their own version of cliches and narratives. I find the "telling it like it is" doesn't mean the skaters are right and usually conforms to formulas I've read over and over throughout the decades following this sport. That said I think you hit the nail on the head regarding skating audiences and what we're used to v. broader audiences who have issues accepting skating as a legitimate sport.
 
I digress to say that Plush's folk dance is my favorite program of his - particularly the time he made mistakes and then started spontaneously changing/throwing in elements, with a very upset Mishin yelling at him from the boards.

oh, I adore that program, too! I have seen that program thousands of times! There are many versions. That wasn't the first time when he spontaneously changed the elements after his mistake. He did it at his 15 on his first WCH! :lol:
 
My takeaway here is that those who would have kept S/P at silver represent a material portion of the overall figure skating universe that has accepted that cheating, collusion and subjective marking are all generally accepted with the sport -- values that are not shared by the broader sporting community.

:D

I assure you those that would have EITHER given S/P silver OR gold accept that cheating, collusion, and subjective marking are all generally accepted in figure skating.

1980
1988
1994
2002
2014

...
 
It always cracked me up that people who argued Anton's bobble meant that cheating was the only way S/P could be 2nd in the FS also insisted that the two first place votes for S/P's SP with a fall on a non-element were totally legit.
 
On the other hand, these non-subjective sports are literally saturated with cheating - track and field, swimming, cycling. I will admit that I cynically assume that pretty much every single athlete from any country who is successful enough to be contending for medals is most likely doping at one level or another, but even if that worst-case scenario is not the case generally, certainly there have been so many medalists/winners from a variety of countries busted for doping in these sports that I don't know how great a case fans have for their comparative credibility.
 
On the other hand, these non-subjective sports are literally saturated with cheating - track and field, swimming, cycling. I will admit that I cynically assume that pretty much every single athlete from any country who is successful enough to be contending for medals is most likely doping at one level or another, but even if that worst-case scenario is not the case generally, certainly there have been so many medalists/winners from a variety of countries busted for doping in these sports that I don't know how great a case fans have for their comparative credibility.

:lol: and then it ends up sounding like this in the press (imo, given i read both western and russian):
- Western - Russians cheat, because that's what they do always, winning is more important to them than fair play...
- Russian - Westerners cheat, only they find clever ways to legally disguise it, or to find loopholes to take those drugs...

- Western attitude: We are generally honest and very moral (look at our democracy), our cheating incidents happen but not as a norm. Russians cheat all the time, and we need to talk about it all the time.
- Russian attitude: We cheat because Westerners cheat and hide it well, and we only mention it when they attack us. Otherwise, we don't care, they have their ways, we have ours, that's life... and we don't care unless they start scandals.

:p
 
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It is easy to forget the value of an apparently "clean" program back then.

Now, I just notice that her first combination is a 2.5S-2.5Lp, which is something I wouldn't have even known how to identity back in 2002.

Also her 3Flutz was so pre-rotated and UR'd that she was probably in the air about 1.75 revolutions. It was such a bad night. If only Sasha had landed that 3T...
 
:lol:

Fair Play = Indirect Legally Disguised Way of Accomplishing a Goal

This sounds universally true, although I might be called a barbarian for recognizing it.
I'll only quote my favorite ... "yesterday's history is written by today's winners".. :lol:
 
Poor ol' Irina can't even maintain first place ordinals in her own thread. Displaced by pair skaters - where women who can't jump go.

(I personally don't believe pairs women have lesser skill sets than singles but apparently lots of others do. )
 
Poor ol' Irina can't even maintain first place ordinals in her own thread. Displaced by pair skaters - where women who can't jump go.
You're not looking at it correctly..;) Irina's memories are the perfect time capsule that functions like Aladdin's Lamp when slightly rubbed... (if you don't like the Ala-lamp, there is the P-box)..
 
If you don't like the North American style you'll dislike everyone who trains within it.

This. And those who don't like it would say the North American pairs skaters have no style.

But wouldn't it get rather boring if all pairs skaters had the classical Russian style?

I appreciate the classical Russian style and the view that 'if it works, don't fix it', but some Russian pairs have just been cookie-cutter and not brought anything uniquely distinctive to their programs. IMO. Though of course, some western pairs have been lacking in terms of a distinct style, also.
 
Read the article. I was a bit :rolleyes: over the comments regarding her 'the fix was in' talking point on 2002 and 2006.

One allegation that I recall at the time was that not only was there was to be trading between Russia-France in Pairs and Ice Dance, but there was high level chatter that Russia was going to pick-up the men's gold and Kwan was going to win the Ladies' event. It was talk on the boards in 2002 w/ someone using a supposed source. IOW, it meant that the Russian Fed didn't really care about Slutskaya or would actively politick for her (part of trading is that you have to give up something), because they were focused on the Men and Pairs titles (not that they needed politicking to capture the Men's event). So, 'the fix' against her may have involved her own Fed. I will qualify all that by saying what really could be substantiated?

I liked the candor though about her relationship with Butyrskaya.
 

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