Vaytsekhovskaya's interview with Irina Slutskaya

[Bonjour Sherry]

One allegation that I recall at the time was that not only was there was to be trading between Russia-France in Pairs and Ice Dance, but there was high level chatter that Russia was going to pick-up the men's gold and Kwan was going to win the Ladies' event.

Hmm, I wonder where this idea originated. It does seem a bit like the judges were lining up Michelle for gold, at least in the SP where her 3flip was clearly <<. So the 5.5-5.6 technical marks were accurate but certainly not the 5.8-5.9 range. Then in the long, it seems up for debate among skating fans whether Kwan or Slutskaya should have placed higher. So I'm not sure it's that fixed, unless one is saying that Kwan is favored relative to how she was scored throughout the season compared to Slute. As for the men, did people really think that Goebel was going to win gold, other than NBC commentators?

Also I find the Russia-France trading idea that people brought up before in the media funny. If anything, Lobacheva/Averbukh got favors at the Olympics for even being considered contenders to Anissina/Peizerat. Relative to that season and the previous season, the top Russian pair was getting higher marks at the Olympics (as they should), and so was the top Russian dance team (though they shouldn't have).

 

[olympic]

Hmm, I wonder where this idea originated. It does seem a bit like the judges were lining up Michelle for gold, at least in the SP where her 3flip was clearly <<. So the 5.5-5.6 technical marks were accurate but certainly not the 5.8-5.9 range. Then in the long, it seems up for debate among skating fans whether Kwan or Slutskaya should have placed higher. So I'm not sure it's that fixed, unless one is saying that Kwan is favored relative to how she was scored throughout the season compared to Slute. As for the men, did people really think that Goebel was going to win gold, other than NBC commentators?

Also I find the Russia-France trading idea that people brought up before in the media funny. If anything, Lobacheva/Averbukh got favors at the Olympics for even being considered contenders to Anissina/Peizerat. Relative to that season and the previous season, the top Russian pair was getting higher marks at the Olympics (as they should), and so was the top Russian dance team (though they shouldn't have).

I do personally think that Slutskaya is partially right, but perhaps angry at the wrong authority: There was admitted horse-trading going on in the Pairs-Ice Dance competition, but I also believe that the Russian Fed would have thrown her under the bus for Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. Pairs was more important to the Russian Fed than Ladies.

 

[Japanfan]

One allegation that I recall at the time was that not only was there was to be trading between Russia-France in Pairs and Ice Dance, but there was high level chatter that Russia was going to pick-up the men's gold and Kwan was going to win the Ladies' event.

The gold was Yagudin's to lose, and no fix needed to be in place to ensure his win. Yagudin said that winning the Olympics was his destiny, and he skated as if it was in the lead-up to the Games (winning every competition he entered IIRC).

 

[Ananas Astra]

The gold was Yagudin's to lose, and no fix needed to be in place to ensure his win. Yagudin said that winning the Olympics was his destiny, and he skated as if it was in the lead-up to the Games (winning every competition he entered IIRC).

But his win at 2002 Euros was HIGHLY controversial. I still think that Abt should've won the gold there.

 

[tony]

But his win at 2002 Euros was HIGHLY controversial. I still think that Abt should've won the gold there.

Some people consider the Goodwill Games to be at the end of one season, others will say it starts the new season. Either way, Yagudin was near his worst at this event in 2001 and was probably lucky to stay on the podium. He really worked hard after that and the GPF that year was extremely thrilling in his battle with Plushenko.

 

[whiteskates]

But his win at 2002 Euros was HIGHLY controversial. I still think that Abt should've won the gold there.

Agree! I could hardly believe that they gave it to Yagudin. Abt had the skate of his life and was a joy to watch at that particular competition.

 

[SmallFairy]

But his win at 2002 Euros was HIGHLY controversial. I still think that Abt should've won the gold there.

He should! Abt wuzrobbed! #neverrecovered
And I was a huge fan of both!

(Now this thread has been Irina vs the other girls, and B/S vs S/P, epic battles, now prepare for this thread to turn into the third epic battle- Yagudin vs Abt!)

 

[Japanfan]

(Now this thread has been Irina vs the other girls, and B/S vs S/P, epic battles, now prepare for this thread to turn into the third epic battle- Yagudin vs Abt!)

Or something else!

But his win at 2002 Euros was HIGHLY controversial. I still think that Abt should've won the gold there.

I remember now that there was much about that decision on this board.

And now I'm reminded of that video I saw of Abt on airplane, completely smashed and getting into a physical altercation with another passenger.

It was so very sad. I hope that Abt is doing well. He was a wonderful skater in his own right, and it's a shame he was overshadowed by Yagudin and Plushenko.

 

[olympic]

The gold was Yagudin's to lose, and no fix needed to be in place to ensure his win. Yagudin said that winning the Olympics was his destiny, and he skated as if it was in the lead-up to the Games (winning every competition he entered IIRC).

I should be clearer. Russia was going to win the men's competition and Kwan was in the CW going to win the ladies' event. So, the whole collusion theory in Pairs and Ice Dance was to give Russia 2 victories (Men and Pairs), and France 1 victory. IMO, deal-making means a trade off and if the CW at the same time was that Kwan would win the ladies' competition, Russia probably could not have politicked for Slutskaya to win the ladies event if they were actively gaming pairs (and going to pick up the men's gold medal as well). I think this is relevant to this thread because Slutskaya keeps talking about the 'fix' as she simply could not win an Olympic gold medal in the U.S., but her own Fed was possibly involved in keeping her off the top spot of the podium, if the whole politicking theory is true.

 

[Marco]

Some people consider the Goodwill Games to be at the end of one season, others will say it starts the new season. Either way, Yagudin was near his worst at this event in 2001 and was probably lucky to stay on the podium. He really worked hard after that and the GPF that year was extremely thrilling in his battle with Plushenko.

I am surprised he won that GPF.

 

[lala]

[QUOTE = "Marco, post: 5540299, tag: 1095"] Meglepett, hogy megnyerte a GPF-et. [/ QUOTE]

I am surprised he won that GPF.

Plushenko had a bad LP. The judges didn't like it ( as me). They has changed it to Carmen. This is the reason why Plush wasn't at ECH. They created the Carmen program and worked on it during 2 months. If you remember.

 

[Finsta]

Did anyone rewatch Irinas skate? If anything the fix was for her win. She was messy and made mistakes. No way should she have been so close to winning. She’s delusional

 

[bardtoob]

The gold was Yagudin's to lose, and no fix needed to be in place to ensure his win. Yagudin said that winning the Olympics was his destiny, and he skated as if it was in the lead-up to the Games (winning every competition he entered IIRC).

But his win at 2002 Euros was HIGHLY controversial. I still think that Abt should've won the gold there.

Agree! I could hardly believe that they gave it to Yagudin. Abt had the skate of his life and was a joy to watch at that particular competition.

He should! Abt wuzrobbed! #neverrecovered
And I was a huge fan of both!

(Now this thread has been Irina vs the other girls, and B/S vs S/P, epic battles, now prepare for this thread to turn into the third epic battle- Yagudin vs Abt!)

It was easier to give Yagudin the win because either way Russia would get the medal.

Can you imagine Raf and Frank drinking and telling their story to each other.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Did anyone rewatch Irinas skate? If anything the fix was for her win. She was messy and made mistakes. No way should she have been so close to winning. She’s delusional

I did not rewatch, but i remember the interviews given by Irina and Maria, after the event, and shortly after, plus this interview... My take on "what she was saying".
- She never said that she should have won the FS over Hughes. Hughes had two 3x3 combinations, and a very clean, energetic, accurate, powerful performance... and that was clear. At the same time all other top girls, Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen messed up some of their jumps/landings and did not do 3x3 combos. So there was no issue with Slutskaya thinking she won FS over Hughes.
- But, from the beginning both Irina and Maria had their reasons to think that the "fix is in" for ANY american girl to win (for a number of reasons listed before).
- Maria felt she is "sacrificed" from the start, in SP, given her (in her opinion) unusually low scores (in low 5.0's) compared to much higher marks she received all season for the same level of skating.
- Irina felt she was slightly underscored in SP, which gave her a disadvantage in FS, given that the scoring was under 6.0 system, which makes a skater depend on "others' placements" (unlike with COP where it's the total points that count). And that the scores/placements for the US girls were arranged in such a way that ANY of the three could place above her, which happened when Hughes came from 4th place to 1st.
- It was not about winning FS over Hughes, it was about a "set up that started in SP to make sure any US girl wins", and that set up started with her low scores in SP, in her opinion..
- "back then" Slutskaya said that she would not have a problem if Kwan or even Cohen was above her/won Gold, because they are high quality skaters, with proven track record. But the fact that these two were behind her, and a "no-name" Hughes was above her, is a proof that "any US girl was planned for a win"....

 

[Coco]

But Hughes had already defeated Slutskaya
(Skate Canada) and had a better track record than Cohen.

 

[clairecloutier]

LOL. Wasn't Sarah the reigning World bronze medalist going into Salt Lake? And also as @Coco said, she had rather famously beaten both Slutskaya and Kwan at Skate Canada earlier that season. I'm sure she had beaten Butyrskaya at various points too. She was not exactly some "no-name" going into Salt Lake.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Irina's Tosca gave me my life!

 

[meggonzo]

Why would Russia need to fix the men's competition? It was clear that the gold would go to either Yagudin or Plushenko.

 

[Tinami Amori]

But Hughes had already defeated Slutskaya
(Skate Canada) and had a better track record than Cohen.

Irina did say that on that night Hughes was better...
https://www.kp.ru/daily/22499/15563/
Q: - Сравнить свое катание и выступление Хьюз вы могли бы?
IS: - (После некоторой паузы.) Я каталась хорошо. Сара, пожалуй, великолепно. Это правда. Судьи сделали свой выбор.

Q: - Can you compare your skate (FS) with Hughes'?
IS: - (after a pause). I skated good. Sarah, certainly, skated fantastic. That's the truth. Judges made their decision.

But the "view" of the situation was "US is set up to win gold, no matter which girl moves ahead".
(there are many livejournal blogs/chats about skating, russian, here is one, that actually disputes Irina's claims... but mentions the belief from the Russian coach Chaikovskaya, that the fix was in..).
https://olenusha.livejournal.com/129305.html

Чайковская (может, не первой) сказала в одном из интервью, что американцы тогда придумали и осуществили простую и гениальную, но подлую комбинацию - они любой ценой тянули всех трех своих спортсменок наверх в сцепке: если сорвется одна, другие все равно не дадут просочиться никому.

Chaikovskaya was not to the first who said in one of the interviews, that Americans then contrived and implemented a simple and clever, but vile/sneaky set up - they were pushing up all three of their ladies in a scheme, if not the one, then the other, not letting any one else squeeze through.

 

[UGG]

Sarah’s ordinals in the short program we’re all over the place. It just happened she ended up 4th. Did she even get a 4th place ordinal? IRRC she has some 10th places!

 

[alchemy void]

Why would Russia need to fix the men's competition? It was clear that the gold would go to either Yagudin or Plushenko.

Don't count out Todd!

 

[bardtoob]

Chaikovskaya was not to the first who said in one of the interviews, that Americans then contrived and implemented a simple and clever, but vile/sneaky set up - they were pushing up all three of their ladies in a scheme, if not the one, then the other, not letting any one else squeeze through.

This scheme seems reasonable, but I have heard Americans say Americans are too dumb, naive, and uncooperative to do this.

 

[bardtoob]

Why would Russia need to fix the men's competition? It was clear that the gold would go to either Yagudin or Plushenko.

Don't count out Todd!

Yeah, because Todd's mythical 4T was going to magically appear and make it obvious he should win over guys with 2 or 3 quads

 

[Coco]

Well if we're going to go all out with our conspiracy theories, Russia didn't need to fix the men's event so that a Russian would win, but someone within the Federation might have wanted to fix it so that a specific Russian would win.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Well if we're going to go all out with our conspiracy theories, Russia didn't need to fix the men's event so that a Russian would win, but someone within the Federation might have wanted to fix it so that a specific Russian would win.

Well... whatever "they" wanted to fix, Plush messed up a jump, and Yags did not.. (although i prefer Plush's style).

 

[bardtoob]

Well... whatever "they" wanted to fix, Plush messed up a jump, and Yags did not.. (although i prefer Plush's style).

Plushy still got the silver despite the specific jump he messed should have cost him more in 2002 ... but the same could be said of Midori in 1992.

... but then Goebel and Kerrigan got their bronze medals ...

 

[Tinami Amori]

Plushy still got the silver despite the specific jump he messed should have cost him more in 2002 ... but the same could be said of Midori in 1992.

... but then Goebel and Kerrigan got their bronze medals ...

The situation with Goebel... I did not think he earned 3rd in FS. I had Honda in 3rd, Goebel in 4th.
Honda's only "minus" in FS for me was an ugly "Y-spin", the rest was great and his foot-work seq. imo was even better than Yags/Plush's. He had his quad, 3A combo, etc.. all was great and he skated wonderfully "with the music".

Goebel (although a sweet-heart of a person) was always "wooden" with telegraphed jumps, long preparations while holding "stiff arms down towards the ground" and tight neck and shoulders.

Honda got 5.7 and few 5.6 marks for FS, with only US judge giving him 5.5.. (or the lowest score of all).
Goebel got the highest mark from US judges in Artistic - 5.9... nobody else gave him 5.9...

Honda skated to a normal piece of music, with high and low notes, rhythm, beat, the kind of music where you can trace how well a skater follows the music - DQ..

Goebel skated to some kind of atonal cacophony by Gershwin-something... the kind of music that sounds like "cat scratches on a glass" and the kind you can't trace how 'well the skater hits the notes".... because it just sounds that drag.. and to me it is "somewhat cheating" when you chose music like this... you don't have to show you have "rhythm" or can "interpret someting".,

If anything, the wuzrobbed was Honda..

 

[alchemy void]

Sarah’s ordinals in the short program we’re all over the place. It just happened she ended up 4th. Did she even get a 4th place ordinal? IRRC she has some 10th places!

Hughes' ordinals aren't exactly as crazy as I remembered:

6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

Aside from 10th place from the Russian judge (which certainly could be justified based on possible deductions), the ordinals are very consistent.

Fumie's ordinals, on the other hand, were indeed all over the place:

4 13 8 11 4 12 9 5 5

Definitely the most wuzrobbed skater in the SP for me.

 

[tony]

The situation with Goebel... I did not think he earned 3rd in FS. I had Honda in 3rd, Goebel in 4th.
Honda's only "minus" in FS for me was an ugly "Y-spin", the rest was great and his foot-work seq. imo was even better than Yags/Plush's. He had his quad, 3A combo, etc.. all was great and he skated wonderfully "with the music".

Goebel (although a sweet-heart of a person) was always "wooden" with telegraphed jumps, long preparations while holding "stiff arms down towards the ground" and tight neck and shoulders.

Honda got 5.7 and few 5.6 marks for FS, with only US judge giving him 5.5.. (or the lowest score of all).
Goebel got the highest mark from US judges in Artistic - 5.9... nobody else gave him 5.9...

Honda skated to a normal piece of music, with high and low notes, rhythm, beat, the kind of music where you can trace how well a skater follows the music - DQ..

Goebel skated to some kind of atonal cacophony by Gershwin-something... the kind of music that sounds like "cat scratches on a glass" and the kind you can't trace how 'well the skater hits the notes".... because it just sounds that drag.. and to me it is "somewhat cheating" when you chose music like this... you don't have to show you have "rhythm" or can "interpret someting".,

If anything, the wuzrobbed was Honda..

First, Honda’s short program was Don Quixote. You’re mixing his SP with his FS, because the 4T attempt in the long resulted in a big stepout. His free skate was Concierto de Aranjuez, and I really thought that program was a masterpiece at the time but his skating doesn’t hold up so well watching from IJS eyes.

That said, on the night I thought Goebel presented a well-rounded program and he really upped the attempt at listening to the music that season. Honda had weak-ish spins and the technical flaws/content he actually did produce wasn’t enough, even for me at that time as a big fan, to think he was robbed.

The skaters from 4th to 8th really could’ve been marked in any order IMO. It was a great night of skating even beyond the medals.

 

[tony]

Hughes' ordinals aren't exactly as crazy as I remembered:

6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

Aside from 10th place from the Russian judge (which certainly could be justified based on possible deductions), the ordinals are very consistent.

Fumie's ordinals, on the other hand, were indeed all over the place:

4 13 8 11 4 12 9 5 5

Definitely the most wuzrobbed skater in the SP for me.

Suguri was in the final group until the very last skater, a very young Sarah Meier, who actually beat Fumie on ordinals but wound up in 9th because she lost ordinals to someone ranked lower than her. The ordinals were really all over the place.

I think Gusmeroli was robbed as well. A deduction for the lack of steps into her solo jump, but she was certainly better than Robinson and even Hughes.