Vaytsekhovskaya's interview with Irina Slutskaya

[rfisher]

She nailed the difference between the "fearless" 15-16 year old with nothing to lose and the older skater who knows exactly what's at stake, especially in Russia where winning and losing at figure skating is about so much more than a little piece of gold around your neck.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Under 6.0, the "I know it when I see it," ie., something that judges found gripping or exciting, could erase sound, cumulative assessment.

I've long thought that including the TR mark was the "Berezhnaia Rule." Of course it would be nice if assigning the mark had anything to do with reality...

 

[VGThuy]

I often thought a lot of the way IJS was structured and what it rewarded heavily and not rewarded was to retroactively justify B/S's win and maybe ensure a Sarah Hughes like win won't happen again with all the issues with her jump technique including edges and URs. That said, it does coincide with what people want skating to reward, so it's all gravy.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I often thought a lot of the way IJS was structured and what it rewarded heavily and not rewarded was to retroactively justify B/S's win and maybe ensure a Sarah Hughes like win won't happen again with all the issues with her jump technique including edges and URs. That said, it does coincide with what people want skating to reward, so it's all gravy.

Sarah Hughes would have won in the first few years of IJS, just look at the scores Sasha Cohen was getting for her under rotated jumps. If I remember correctly it was during the Yuna vs Mao era were the edge and later UR became a huge issue, so I do not believe the motivation was to stop Hughes like victory from happening.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I wish I had not read that. I would rather remember the Irina that I made up in my mind. She seems so bitter. Is she still married?

 

[antmanb]

I often thought a lot of the way IJS was structured and what it rewarded heavily and not rewarded was to retroactively justify B/S's win

I don't know, I remember rewatching both programmes after IJS came in and thinking that GOE bullets and level bullets in various things ticked the boxes for things that S/P and B/S included in their programmes. I can't remember off the top of my head but S/P had "features" in their death spiral and lifts that appeared in the levels when IJS came out so I think both got a nod. Wasn't there some big Konspiracy that the IJS had been written by Kanadians so it wouldn't necessarily follow that it was written to justify B/S's win (not that I believe the conspiracy).

that it's not even the off season but Irina has us rehashing SLC again

 

[Erin]

The number of delusions that Slutskaya has in that interview is amusing. My favorite two are that she was the first to do the triple sal-triple loop (nope, that would be Tara Lipinski who did it at 1996 Worlds and 1996 Skate Canada...Slutskaya attempted it but didn’t land it at 1996 Cup of Russia and first landed it at 1997 Worlds) and the bit about Arakawa getting +2/+3 for every element in the SP where Slutskaya got zeros (first, no one got +3 then, second, Slutskaya had more positive GOEs in the SP than Arakawa...it’s how Slute beat Arakawa in the SP with the same base score, along with PCS).

I also find it very interesting that Slute had a positive drug test in 1998-99 that apparently had no consequences and was never publicized.

I was always a big fan of her skating - it’s a shame she has to open her mouth. Nonetheless, thanks for translating @TAHbKA

 

[VGThuy]

I wish I had not read that. I would rather remember the Irina that I made up in my mind. She seems so bitter. Is she still married?

I was always a big fan of her skating - it’s a shame she has to open her mouth.

This is honestly the Slutskaya I remember from 2001 Worlds when she stomped off the KnC and was clearly unhappy on the podium to her last eligible competition at 2006 Olympics with all the things she has said during that period. She's still hurting from that 2001 Worlds result as evidenced by that interview.

 

[attyfan]

I often thought a lot of the way IJS was structured and what it rewarded heavily and not rewarded was to retroactively justify B/S's win and maybe ensure a Sarah Hughes like win won't happen again with all the issues with her jump technique including edges and URs. That said, it does coincide with what people want skating to reward, so it's all gravy.

I don't think part of the IJS was to deal with issues such as Sarah's jump technique. I do think that a major part of the IJS, which would have blocked both Sarah's gold and the issue over the pairs, is that a big lead after the SP can provide a win even if the skater doesn't win the FS. If the IJS had applied in 2002, for example, even if the UR and edge problems were ignored, Sarah's FS might not have made up the point deficit from the SP. Regardless of the debate over the FS in the pairs event, B/S would have such a big lead over S/P after the SP that S/P could win the free, but not the event.

IMO, what makes Irina seem bitter is her idea that she could have been a five time World champ. I would like to know which World titles she thinks she should have won (besides 2001)

 

[Deleted member 53443]

I see no bitterness. She just doesn't package things verbally the American way.

 

[alchemy void]

The number of delusions that Slutskaya has in that interview is amusing.

Yes. I also found this funny:

Had I not fallen in the LP I wouldn’t get enough GOE to win the gold. Frankly, I let it go in Turino myself. I knew it was useless. That the medal was sold even before the competition began.

She's saying she gave up in Torino because the judges wouldn't support her?! Come on. She skater her LP poorly, even discounting the pop and fall. If she lands 6 clean triples (like she did other times that season) she wins, no problem.

I see no bitterness. She just doesn't package things verbally the American way.

I don't think she's bitter, but she's deluded/misremembering several different facts and competitions.

 

[Finsta]

In no way did she get robbed In 2001. Coaches should have set her straight

 

[Tinami Amori]

In Turin 2006, imo, Irina was under-marked in SP, and judged correctly in FS.

 

[Coco]

Be more specific...how was she under marked? GOE or PCS?

 

[bardtoob]

In Turin 2006, imo, Irina was under-marked in SP, and judged correctly in FS.

I think the GPF results influenced what range of scores Slutskaya was able to get at the Olympics. It was really inappropriate for Mao to be able to compete at the GPF but not the Olympics.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Be more specific...how was she under marked? GOE or PCS?

In spite of loving a) Sasha Cohen in general, b) and the fact that she chose "Ochi Chernie", Irina should have had at least 1-2 points higher TES score than what she was given (36+??) in comparison to Sasha's (35+??).

Sasha had a somewhat "wonky" landing on the 2A, not too difficult entry and slow exit.
Irina's 2A was superb, difficult entry, one of most difficult exits from landing (the kind that very few do today).
Irina had more speed, energy, and more explosive foot-work sequence well matched to the rhythm and energy of this music piece.

Sasha's "gypsy" sequence was a) not the right choreo for that part in that song/music (she was doing "russian folk dance steps" instead of "gypsy dance steps", and too few "ethnic steps" all together for "Dark Eyes" over-all), and she was slower too.

I can also make an argument that Sasha should not have had higher marks in IN, there was VERY little "gypsy" in her skating, while Irina reflected her music much better (it's a different genre then Gypsy, but her moves matched the music).

 

[Yehudi]

Transitions, skating skills, edges were things the judges were supposed to look at in 6.0 but often ignored for lower skaters (see Sebastian Britten). IJS made the criteria more explicit

 

[giselle23]

If she still believes she should won SLC Olympics she needs counselor. . Worlds? No. She should watch her skating again. Her 3/3s sloppy and skating sloppy. Unfortunate she can not get over losses and see she was not winner. I feel sadness for her

Agree. Irina's free skate at SLC was one of her worst. Rushed and overly dramatic. She had a step-out as I recall (or maybe just a very sloppy landing) and no 3-3. Sarah Hughes had the skate of her life. That she was American had nothing to do with her win. The Americans wanted Michelle to win! For most American fans, the result was as devastating as it was for Irina. And then at 2002 World's, she was the one with the pre-ordained result. Terry Gannon asked Dick Button if Michelle could win. "Not with this panel," was the reply.

 

[giselle23]

In no way did she get robbed In 2001. Coaches should have set her straight

Is that the year she is talking about? The one with Michelle's 7-triple masterpiece? I think Irina is delusional.

 

[Coco]

It was close, iirc. Irina also had 7 triples, repeating loop and Lutz(??). So more difficulty, but with some minor landing errors.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I generally preferred Slutskaya SP's; SLC being the standout for me, but I also liked her Totentanz sp. Unfortunately I thought both her Olympic lp's in 02 and 06 were completely underwhelming, and highlighted her sloppy traits.

I know her win at Worlds in 2005 was probably the highlight of her career, but for me her Serenade sp in 2002 was the best she ever skated.

 

[Erin]

For all her kvetching about the results when she didn't win, she neglects to mention things like the giant gift she got in the SP at 2005 Worlds, where there were clean programs from the ladies in 2nd through 9th, but somehow Irina was in 1st after a botched combo and a spin mistake. It might not have mattered in the long run, as she won the LP by a large amount, in spite of doing too many triple loops - although even there, I think she got the benefit of the doubt, this time from the tech panel, as she should have had her whole triple loop-double loop jumping pass invalidated under the rules at the time, but it appears from the protocols that she still got credit for the double loop.

 

[giselle23]

It was close, iirc. Irina also had 7 triples, repeating loop and Lutz(??). So more difficulty, but with some minor landing errors.

Side by side, Michelle's program was better. Irina never should have been close to Michelle in the second mark.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

My thoughts about the two judging systems, B/S, and Sarah Hughes:

(1) The new judging system, with its overpenalization of URs, definitely appeared to have the goal of addressing a major criticism of 6.0: bad jump technique was not penalized frequently and consistently enough. However, it's not true that wrong edges and cheated jumps were not penalized before. They were simply penalized less than now. Skaters with deficient jump technique such as Amber Corwin, Jennifer Robinson, Nicole Watt, Silvia Fontana, (and Sarah Hughes as well) were visibly marked lower on the first mark. I'm sure that the whole ice dancing debacle that season, with D/V being screwed over, contributed to IJS. However, I personally prefer 6.0 ice dance programs.

(2) The new judging system has closed up a lot of room for score manipulation, but not completely. I never made the effort to give levels to B/S and S/P in Salt Lake. But I imagine the politically motivated judges would have done what they could to keep the two pairs close together by inflating S/P's GOE and PCS, or even by inflating levels on elements.

(3) According to my memory, URs were already explicitly penalized as early as 2005-06. I remember clearly Shizuka getting shafted out of GP Final by underrotating the flip in the short program at both of her GP events. I also remember Alissa Czisny landing a cheated 3lutz-3toe and only getting credit for a 3-2.

Finally, I'm still confused why people think Sasha Cohen "fell twice" in the Torino LP. All people have to do is read the protocols to see that she only fell once.

IMO, what makes Irina seem bitter is her idea that she could have been a five time World champ. I would like to know which World titles she thinks she should have won (besides 2001)

I definitely think could have been four-time World Champ and Olympic gold medalist if she was a better competitor. If she had, for instance, the consistency of Zagitova last year, she would have most likely won Worlds in 2000 and 2001. With her difficult tech content, the judges seemed ready to place her ahead of Michelle if she delivered (not sure I agree here, but that's the way it was). Unfortunately, Irina took herself out of contention with mistakes.

 

[Japanfan]

I often thought a lot of the way IJS was structured and what it rewarded heavily and not rewarded was to retroactively justify B/S's win and maybe ensure a Sarah Hughes like win won't happen again with all the issues with her jump technique including edges and URs. That said, it does coincide with what people want skating to reward, so it's all gravy.

B/S didn't win, remember? It was a tie for gold. So, there was nothing to retroactively justify.

Yes, they would have won under CoP. But the 2002 Olympic Pairs comp between B/S and S/P was by no means the only one for which results were seen as questionable or wrong on this board - just one of those discussed most loudly and emotionally - and Sarah Hughes was hardly the only skater to get criticized to be seen as unfairly rewarded under 6.0.

I do think that a major part of the IJS, which would have blocked both Sarah's gold and the issue over the pairs, is that a big lead after the SP can provide a win even if the skater doesn't win the FS.

I don't whether IJS set out to correct that, but if not it certainly is a benefit. Skating got way more exciting to me after the top three in the SP no longer controlled their destiny.

I don't know, I remember rewatching both programmes after IJS came in and thinking that GOE bullets and level bullets in various things ticked the boxes for things that S/P and B/S included in their programmes. I can't remember off the top of my head but S/P had "features" in their death spiral and lifts that appeared in the levels when IJS came out so I think both got a nod.

IIRC the death spiral and the lifts were strengths of S/P's program.

Wasn't there some big Konspiracy that the IJS had been written by Kanadians so it wouldn't necessarily follow that it was written to justify B/S's win (not that I believe the conspiracy).

Believe it! Kanadians are

The Canadians couldn't handle the difficulty of their original free that season which is why they went back to Love Story.

On this we agree, and what a shame we never got to see 'Orchid' develop.

Might want to check your own national bias on this.

I'm fully aware of my biases and own them. Unlike you of course, who has no biases whatsoever?

And if you read my previous post responding to Vash, you'll see that my biases are often towards skaters who are not Canadian.

But having a bias does not mean that one thinks certain skaters should place a certain way just because of it.

In 2002 the panel was split 5-4 in its initial decision (which changed after the French judge admitting to being pressured). That's hardly a slam dunk. As I mentioned before, I closely followed the debates/discussions and analyses that followed at the time, and the perception of who should have won was pretty much 50-50. I rewatched the competition multiple times, scrutinizing the programs closely. There was a legitimate case for S&P winning, regardless of your opinion on the matter. Though I certainly understood/understand why so many feel B/S should have been the rightful winners.

And again, the competition was under 6.0.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I know her win at Worlds in 2005 was probably the highlight of her career, but for me her Serenade sp in 2002 was the best she ever skated.

My favorite is "Bolt/Shostakovich" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZdQfX1W7c8 ... favorite of ALL times.
My only regret was that her chore was too "lady like", and with her style, i'd rather see her "more wild" like in the stage production... the part that starts @ 2:10 (Lienka's dance) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDiqxLuHOAc

 

[VGThuy]

B/S didn't win, remember? It was a tie for gold. So, there was nothing to retroactively justify.

They won initially and the ISU were pressured to give a tie after all that stuff with the French judge came out. Now with IJS, they could justify it by just saying look at the protocols. Of course, S/P are NOT nearly as bad as so many here make them out to be. Their lifts and death spirals are a testament to that and the things they did are now rewarded under IJS too as another poster pointed out to me.

 

[Japanfan]

They won initially and the ISU were pressured to give a tie after all that stuff with the French judge came out.

Initially, but that was not the final outcome. So to say that they won would be incorrect.

Now with IJS, they could justify it by just saying look at the protocols. Of course, S/P are NOT nearly as bad as so many here make them out to be. Their lifts and death spirals are a testament to that and the things they did are now rewarded under IJS too as another poster pointed out to me.

On this we agree.

 

[skatingfan5]

Initially, but that was not the final outcome. So to say that they won would be incorrect.

So the tie was not a win? Did B/S and S/P have to split the difference and each of them could only claim 1.5th instead of 1st place?

 

[Coco]

I normally don't appreciate programs if they are kept longer than a year, but Slutskaya should have kept her 2005 programs for Torino.