Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[BittyBug]

@manhn, yes but the ISU site is such a maze that I cannot find the documentation. (I found an article on olympics.com that explained the system, but not the actual rule itself.)

 

[Allskate]

I don't know where the bylaws are, but I'm assuming there's a separate rules that states a skaters that earns a specific placement gets a certain number of points, i.e. a skaters that gets first place, gets 10 points. No?

They haven't changed the placements for any of the women skaters. They just eliminated Valieva's points. The issue isn't how many points a placement gets. The issue is the placements they assigned (or didn't reassign) to the other women skaters.

 

[MacMadame]

So why are some US coaches still praising/following The Eteri Way…like the team of the first US sr woman to rotate a quad last week, wearing a black-and-red Valieva onesie costume? All of this in the middle of the Valieva investigation? Good grief!

My theory is that they admire the results and think they can get those results by following only part of the program. My other theory is that doping is more common in figure skating than we think it is and more accepted in some circles too.

Maybe Canada should back out of hosting at the very last minute and let the ISU scramble for a new host. But that's too petty.

Hey, it worked for China!

Whatever.

Love a well-reasoned argument.

The point being that it’s all arbitrary anyway. Bumping up skaters in individual events if someone is DQed is a longstanding rule. There isn’t anything longstanding about the TE.

So every newish event at the Olympics doesn't have to follow well-established rules? That makes no sense. Generally, if there is no specific rule, you default to the generic rule.

I did not know that, which makes the team event seem even dumber.... why don't countries make more strategic choices then?

They do. It's always better to field 4 if you can. Some countries can't.

Oh, gawd... Tatiana Tarasova has chimed in.

Read at your stomachs own peril...

https://twitter.com/SkatingLesson/status/1752361855744368936?t=D6EqUVqedfHp10tyade5qw&s=19

I was thinking the same thing this morning. I don't think the discrimination was deliberate but does that matter if it exists? I am assuming they go by CAS ruling and wondered what their legal standing is on this issue.

Discrimination doesn't have to be deliberate in the US for it to be illegal and punishable. I don't know about other countries. (I won an unlawful termination suite because of this.)

This is an interesting point. Skate Canada is getting sh!t right now for not being vocal earlier,

This is something I don't understand. Has Japan been very vocal about this? Not that I've seen and they aren't getting flack either.

 

[Aaron MB Fan]

Is there a legal or complaint angle that Skate Canada could take to the IOC using the different and lower point value attributed to the Women's results? This is essentially blatant discrimination with the ISU ruling considering/treating the Women's results as inferior and less valuable than the other disciplines. Wouldn't this directly contravene the IOC charter and equality requirements and movement? That could get the IOC to strongarm the ISU to change the ruling, just like the IOC was able to strongarm the ISU in 2002 for Pairs.

 

[manhn]

They haven't changed the placements for any of the women skaters. They just eliminated Valieva's points. The issue isn't how many points a placement gets. The issue is the placements they assigned (or didn't reassign) to the other women skaters.

So, no one came in first place?

 

[AnnM]

The USOPC is saying they have been instructed to proceed in awarding the gold medals to the US team so that is what they are going to do. And that the medals do not have to be awarded at the same time and place. So no medal ceremony?

https://x.com/olyphil/status/1752385036433997880?s=46&t=t-qfJxDjad9-j4B-GsMqGg

https://x.com/olyphil/status/1752380291719586125?s=46&t=t-qfJxDjad9-j4B-GsMqGg

I interpret this as each country can choose when/where/how they want to award their medals and that it doesn't have to be all three countries together at the same time and place. I feel confident USFS/USOPC will have a medal ceremony for the entire team.

 

[Allskate]

So, no one came in first place?

Correct. Nobody came in first place for the women. That is the complaint Skate Canada is making. They are pointing out a rule that says that the placements should be reassigned once a skater is disqualified.

 

[manhn]

So, where are the team event rules?

 

[screech]

I can't keep up with this thread, but was wondering if Canada would use this situation to leverage an ice dance gold in Montreal.

#cynical

Kind of off topic with the purpose of this thread, but IMO Canada will get gold in either pairs or dance - the only two events where they have even a remote chance. Pairs finishes one day before dance starts. What I predict is that if S-D/D don't win pairs, Canada will politick HARD to get gold in dance , and ISU may want to appease SC. If S-D/D do win pairs, I don't think they'll make a big fuss for dance results (as long as a Canadian team gets on the podium).

 

[Karen-W]

Correct. Nobody came in first place for the women. That is the complaint Skate Canada is making. They are pointing out a rule that says that the placements should be reassigned once a skater is disqualified. The problem appears to be that the rule is in the section of the rules that relate to single, pairs, and ice dance. It appears that the issue is not addressed one way or the other in the team event rules.

So, where are the team event rules?

I suspect that Skate Canada is going to have a valid path to argue that the points should be reallocated because in the same event when Germany did not have a Pairs team in the SP and Ukraine did not have a man in the SP, the points were allocated 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-0 for 1st through 9th with the 0 going to the countries that did not field an entrant. Whether or not a CAS appeal on these grounds would be accepted is a whole other discussion, but it does seem like that was the intent of the rule as it applies to singles, pairs & ice dance individual events and it should also apply to the team event.

 

[Simone411]

So, where are the team event rules?

Well, this explains the team event rules for the 2022 Olympics, and that's what they would go by.

Figure Skating 101: Competition Format

Learn about the competition format for figure skating at the Beijing Olympic Games.

www.nbcolympics.com

ETA: Here's some more about the team event at Olympic.org

https://olympics.com/en/news/figure-skating-team-event-four-things-watch-olympics-beijing-2022

 

[Allskate]

So, where are the team event rules?

As mentioned upthread, Christine Brennan posted a screenshot of what she says are the relevant rules. No mention one way or the other of what to do about placements:

https://twitter.com/cbrennansports/status/1752314249622290719/photo/4

Here is a link to the more complete rules. Article 11 appears to be the key one here.

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications-archives/352-1922-isu-anti-doping-rules/file

ETA: It's not just the doping rules themselves that are relevant here. @Karen-W has bolded the key rule and language below from the team event rules.

 

[Karen-W]

Well, this explains the team event rules for the 2022 Olympics, and that's what they would go by.

Figure Skating 101: Competition Format

Learn about the competition format for figure skating at the Beijing Olympic Games.

www.nbcolympics.com

Nope - we need the actual TE document itself.

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links-2/2022-beijing/qualification-systems-3/22994-figure-skating-v1-0/file

4) ISU JUDGING SYSTEM – RESULT DETERMINATION

The ISU Judging System as described in the 2020 ISU Special Regulations Single and Pair Skating/Ice Dance shall apply, in particular but not limited to Rule 352 and Rule 353.

To determine the result after the Short Program/Rhythm Dance and for the final result after the Free Skating/Free Dance of the Team Event the following rule will be used:

For each discipline and segment Team Points will be awarded as follows:

1st 10 placement points
2nd 9 placement points
3rd 8 placement points
4th 7 placement points
5th 6 placement points
6th 5 placement points
7th 4 placement points
8th 3 placement points
9th 2 placement points
10th 1 placement point.

The highest five (5) ranked Teams based on the number of aggregate Team points in the Short Program/Rhythm Dance shall continue the Team Event by competing in the Free Skating/Free Dance. In case of a tie on the 5th place, the tie breaking criteria are listed below.

The Team having earned the highest number of aggregate Team points in the Short Program/Rhythm Dance and the Free Skating/Free Dance is the winner, the Team having earned the second highest number of Team points is ranked second and so on.

When forming the intermediate and final result, in case of a tie between Teams, the tie breaking procedure will be used taking into consideration
• The highest aggregate Team points per Team from the two (2) best places in different disciplines will break the tie;
• If they remain tied, the highest total sum of the segment/total scores of the two (2) skaters/couples, who build the tie, will break the tie;
• If they remain tied, the highest aggregate Team points per Team from the three (3) best places in different disciplines will break the ties;
• If they remain tied, the highest total sum of the segment/total scores of the three (3) skaters/couples, who build the tie, will break the tie;
• If these criteria fail to break the ties, the Teams will be considered tied.

Skate Canada should win the appeal. The TE qualification doc CLEARLY states that Rule 352 & Rule 353 apply.

 

[marbri]

So, where are the team event rules?

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links-2/2022-beijing/qualification-systems-3/22994-figure-skating-v1-0/file

Pages 10-12 of that document has the team rules: Note this document has Bejing 2022 in its title.

4) ISU JUDGING SYSTEM – RESULT DETERMINATION The ISU Judging System as described in the 2020 ISU Special Regulations Single and Pair Skating/Ice Dance shall apply, in particular but not limited to Rule 352 and Rule 353.To determine the result after the Short Program/Rhythm Dance and for the final result after the FreeSkating/Free Dance of the Team Event the following rule will be used:For each discipline and segment Team Points will be awarded as follows:

1st 10 placement points
2nd 9 placement points
3rd 8 placement points
4th 7 placement points
5th 6 placement points
6th 5 placement points
7th 4 placement points
8th 3 placement points
9th 2 placement points
10th 1 placement point

So are they not saying here that you apply the same rules in team event that you do in the individual events? ie. Rule 353

 

[Allskate]

I suspect that Skate Canada is going to have a valid path to argue that the points should be reallocated because in the same event when Germany did not have a Pairs team in the SP and Ukraine did not have a man in the SP, the points were allocated 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-0 for 1st through 9th with the 0 going to the countries that did not field an entrant. Whether or not a CAS appeal on these grounds would be accepted is a whole other discussion, but it does seem like that was the intent of the rule as it applies to singles, pairs & ice dance individual events and it should also apply to the team event.

I think that's logical. IMO, Valieva should be treated as if she didn't compete.

 

[Rukia]

They be in the trash, we all were trying to figure out how best to ruin them and we decided battling with them could have worked, but it was too awkward, and with my knee I bowed out of jumping on them, so I don't know how they got dismantled but hopefully it was fun

omg a heroes burial pouring one out for these giants of skating

 

[Karen-W]

So are they not saying here that you apply the same rules in team event that you do in the individual events? ie. Rule 353

You and I were posting at the same time. That's my interpretation as well. I'm pretty sure that Skate Canada will win an appeal based upon the TE document itself.

ETA - It honestly blows my mind that reporters and fans are able to figure this out but the ISU can't. Just another example, as @tony mentioned earlier today, of the ISU and federation officials literally not knowing what their own documents and regulations say. Two years. Two years now for them to review all of the relevant documents and regulations and have the correct scenarios laid out, ready to go for whenever CAS made their ruling. SMDH.

 

[Allskate]

Nope - we need the actual TE document itself.

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links-2/2022-beijing/qualification-systems-3/22994-figure-skating-v1-0/file

Skate Canada should win the appeal. The TE qualification doc CLEARLY states that Rule 352 & Rule 353 apply.

Thanks for this. That seems pretty clear. I think Skate Canada is right. I'm going to edit my previous comments to avoid confusion.

"The ISU Judging System as described in the 2020 ISU Special Regulations Single and Pair Skating/Ice Dance shall apply, in particular but not limited to Rule 352 and Rule 353."

And, as a reminder, Rule 353 provides: "Disqualified Competitors will lose their placements and be officially noted in the intermediate and final results as disqualified (DSQ). Competitors having finished the competition and who initially placed lower than the disqualified Competitor(s) will move up accordingly in their placement(s)."

 

[Theatregirl1122]

You and I were posting at the same time. That's my interpretation as well. I'm pretty sure that Skate Canada will win an appeal based upon the TE document itself.

ETA - It honestly blows my mind that reporters and fans are able to figure this out but the ISU can't. Just another example, as @tony mentioned earlier today, of the ISU and federation officials literally not knowing what their own documents and regulations say. Two years. Two years now for them to review all of the relevant documents and regulations and have the correct scenarios laid out, ready to go for whenever CAS made their ruling. SMDH.

But I thought the team even was FaKE and had no RuuUuLes.

 

[marbri]

You and I were posting at the same time. That's my interpretation as well. I'm pretty sure that Skate Canada will win an appeal based upon the TE document itself.

ETA - It honestly blows my mind that reporters and fans are able to figure this out but the ISU can't. Just another example, as @tony mentioned earlier today, of the ISU and federation officials literally not knowing what their own documents and regulations say. Two years. Two years now for them to review all of the relevant documents and regulations and have the correct scenarios laid out, ready to go for whenever CAS made their ruling. SMDH.

And yet some would have you believe they figured this out long ago and were prepared.

I go back to my thought earlier in this thread. They didn't think this through, made a quick subtraction of 20 pts and said "phew" everyone who expected a medal still gets one, lucky us. And no one at the table said "hang on, lets add that up again"...

I am certain I read yesterday they would meet Feb 7 to discuss and then we wake up to this rash decision

 

[lexeoe]

At Montreal Worlds, the audience should boo Eteri.

she seriously going to show up? if so, the loudest boos will be needed.

 

[lexeoe]

A russian playing the victim card.... where did I put my shock face? I think I need it....

Again, russians bring more trouble than value to sporting events. Let them compete at home and admire each other and wallow in imagined victimhood.

they're experts at that.

 

[thvu]

You and I were posting at the same time. That's my interpretation as well. I'm pretty sure that Skate Canada will win an appeal based upon the TE document itself.

ETA - It honestly blows my mind that reporters and fans are able to figure this out but the ISU can't. Just another example, as @tony mentioned earlier today, of the ISU and federation officials literally not knowing what their own documents and regulations say. Two years. Two years now for them to review all of the relevant documents and regulations and have the correct scenarios laid out, ready to go for whenever CAS made their ruling. SMDH.

The ISU and USFS should start paying some people here to consult.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

The ISU and USFS should start paying some people here to consult.

On excuse making?

 

[airgelaal]

So, no one came in first place?

Nobody deserved the first place. Except for Valieva, of course

 

[thvu]

On excuse making?

To read, interpret, and explain their own rules.

 

[Mugs]

"The USOPC is saying they have been instructed to proceed in awarding the gold medals to the US team so that is what they are going to do. And that the medals do not have to be awarded at the same time and place."

Ask the team, USOPC. C'mon - is there any doubt they want a medal ceremony and they want to be together?

Didn't the head of the IOC promise the U.S. team he'd make sure they got their ceremony?

Maybe at the Super Bowl?

 

[Simone411]

Thanks for this. That seems pretty clear. I think Skate Canada is right. I'm going to edit my previous comments to avoid confusion.

"The ISU Judging System as described in the 2020 ISU Special Regulations Single and Pair Skating/Ice Dance shall apply, in particular but not limited to Rule 352 and Rule 353."

Also, this was mentioned in the second link I found. I edited to add it in.

In the qualification phase, a man, an ice dance couple, a pair and a woman will present their short program to earn points for their nation - or "team". The skater in first place earns 10 points, second place nine points, third place eight points and so on.

In the free skate - featuring just five teams - a man, a pair, an ice dance couple and a woman perform their free program.

Nations are allowed to change (substitute) up to two athletes (or duos) – if they have more than one in each discipline – between the short program and the free skate.

The scoring system is the same in the finals with the top skater or team earning 10 points down to six points for fifth place.

The team which earns most points in all events will be crowned Olympic champion.

 

[Trillian]

At Montreal Worlds, the audience should boo Eteri.

she seriously going to show up? if so, the loudest boos will be needed.

I won’t be there, but I promise to yell “Go home!” at my TV even louder than I usually do when I see her face on it.

 

[MacMadame]

I go back to my thought earlier in this thread. They didn't think this through, made a quick subtraction of 20 pts and said "phew" everyone who expected a medal still gets one, lucky us. And no one at the table said "hang on, lets add that up again"...

That is extremely doubtful. It's not like this hasn't been discussed over and over in public. There is no way it wasn't being discussed behind closed doors as well.

IMO, they wanted to appease Russia and picked the option that gave them a medal, just not Gold.