USFS' Athlete Selection Procedures for 2022 Olympics

Malinin could have been a host pick to Skate America. Hosts get to do what they please -- there are no requirements, just suggestions -- as long as the skater is age-eligible and has the right to represent the host Federation.
 
Malinin could have been a host pick to Skate America. Hosts get to do what they please -- there are no requirements, just suggestions -- as long as the skater is age-eligible and has the right to represent the host Federation.
Exactly. If he and his team wanted to go Senior this season, there were options available to him to do so. His team knew the risk when they chose for him to stay Junior.
 
You do realize that Nationals serves many purposes, right? Choosing the team for the biggest international competition of the season is only one of those purposes. All the other reasons Nationals exist are just as meaningful as they ever are.
They may well be meaningful but that doesn't mean they're particularly interesting or involving to the fan base. In this instance, they really could have sent away the top skaters, the ones who were clearly going to make the team, without subjecting then to the tedium of not putting out their best work and the risk to their health that that entitled. The top skaters, the ones foreordained to have Olympic spots, could have spent time hidden in some safe place , not risking their own physical well being and those of the coaches, support teams, and families. If you were who were going to be picked, why have a make believe competition. Instead create a safe house and invite them all in. Maybe they could have made a tv series of it.
 
Nationals did determine to put Malinin on the Worlds team over Jason and he earned a first alternate spot because of it. I’m sure if Jason or Vincent had a much worse Fall showing where they weren’t scoring as high as they did, And if Ilia had a much better senior Challenger and had higher scoring LPs at two of his three comps, he’d be on the team. Alas, we almost have an American ice dance-level of depth with the men right now that it’s hard for anyone out of the top 3 to upset the apple cart unless they consistently scored as high or comparably as they did before Nationals.

Hawayek/Baker did almost lose their strong argument for an Olympic berth to Green/Parsons until H/B knocked it out of the park in the FD. Had they not and G/P managed third, I bet it would have been either an Ilia/Jason situation or G/P actually being named because of their GP scores being comparable to H/B’s during the Fall.
 
So, I just went to the last page of this thread and assumed that USFSA has chosen some favorite skater in some discipline to go to the Olympics with out rhyme or reason. By rhyme or reason, I mean the Zhou "for the future" reason, which was at least coherent although I did not agree with it.

In any case, I am not betting on the Olympics happening in two months. My guess is that the actual Olympic team will be chosen post US Nationals 2023, but who knows.
 
So, I just went to the last page of this thread and assumed that USFSA has chosen some favorite skater in some discipline to go to the Olympics with out rhyme or reason. By rhyme or reason, I mean the Zhou "for the future" reason, which was at least coherent although I did not agree with it.

In any case, I am not betting on the Olympics happening in two months. My guess is that the actual Olympic team will be chosen post US Nationals 2023, but who knows.
The Olympics start in three WEEKS, not in two months. They start on February 4.
 
If the field is felled by cv, all bets are off. But if most or all of the Olympic-bound skaters get to Beijing, one thing that I don't remember seeing mentioned is that Brown will almost certainly skate in the last group in the SP. I don't think there are five or more Olympic-bound skaters who could score enough at 4C's (Cha/Kerry) or Europeans to knock him out of the Top 6 WS, and the worst case scenario is that I've bumbled the math, and when the Euros dust settles, is that he'd skate in the penultimate group. Chen is in the same boat.

Zhou is likely to be in the bottom half if Olympic-bound skaters like Cha, Grassl, Vasiljevs Selevko earn 4C's or Euros points, which means skating as early as 1st, and so would have Malinin.
 
If the field is felled by cv, all bets are off. But if most or all of the Olympic-bound skaters get to Beijing, one thing that I don't remember seeing mentioned is that Brown will almost certainly skate in the last group in the SP. I don't think there are five or more Olympic-bound skaters who could score enough at 4C's (Cha/Kerry) or Europeans to knock him out of the Top 6 WS, and the worst case scenario is that I've bumbled the math, and when the Euros dust settles, is that he'd skate in the penultimate group. Chen is in the same boat.

Zhou is likely to be in the bottom half if Olympic-bound skaters like Cha, Grassl, Vasiljevs Selevko earn 4C's or Euros points, which means skating as early as 1st, and so would have Malinin.
And. Do you think Brown is going to be an Olympic medalist?

Do you think Illia has a chance to be in the future? It’s pretty clear which skater is the potential champion. Even if Illia placed 15th that’s valuable experience. For four years from now. Heck two months from now at worlds.

If Chen has previous Olympic experience he might have won in 2018. It’s silly not to consider that.

If Brown were to become an Olympic medalist it would only be due to a ridiculous epic splat fest of covid meltdown And I frankly think if such a fest happened it wouldn’t hurt to have Illia there to jump his way in.

In fact I actually think the international judges would be more happy to award a medal to a 6 quad Illia than a quadless Jason.
 
And. Do you think Brown is going to be an Olympic medalist?
Not unless Nathan Chen decides not to do the Team Event. But the later the start, the more rise in discretionary scoring (GOEs, PCS) and the greater the cushion for errors, if you're an established GOE/PCS skater.
 
Not unless Nathan Chen decides not to do the Team Event. But the later the start, the more rise in discretionary scoring (GOEs, PCS) and the greater the cushion for errors, if you're an established GOE/PCS skater.
But the only way Illia will get established is if he goes to major events. Your biting of your nose to spite your face to not put someone with Ilias talent out there quickly.

Japan is doing this. Why do you think Russia is so successful. They back their young talent.

I guarantee you Russia would not consider Jason’s BV some great body of work. Nor would Canada.
 
But the only way Illia will get established is if he goes to major events. Your biting of your nose to spite your face to not put someone with Ilias talent out there quickly.
Hmm, this sounds exactly like what people said when they said that Vincent must be sent to 2017 Worlds or else all was lost for him and the US men, that sending Jason would be losing the third spot, that sending Jason would be costing Vincent his future...

And similarly, Vincent had also been just a Junior that year. He'd been to one CS event, which he mucked up. We were told to ignore it (because he was injured). And then he produced a good skate at Nationals with lots of quads (all of which were much sketchier than Ilia's). Vincent is ready! People like you cried. He needs to be established!

USFS correctly sent Jason, who did precisely the job asked of him and helped Nathan retain the three spots for the Olympics. Vincent made his Senior debut on the GP the next season, where he had a middling debut at best and hardly lit the world on fire, and then was sent to the Olympics and Worlds anyway. So it was hardly what you would call a huge setback, or cutting off the nose to spite the face...and guess what? When Vincent was sent to his first Senior Worlds? He screwed it up.
 
I guess then Senior Worlds is not a major event. And the berth given to a skater who has one senior international under his belt, at which he didn't even earn the Worlds TES minimums, is such disrespect. It's just so hard to bear it.
It’s a consolation price and Jason will still get to end up going if Nathan doesn’t show so it’s even doubly unfair.

Hogwash and and a joke.
 
Hmm, this sounds exactly like what people said when they said that Vincent must be sent to 2017 Worlds or else all was lost for him and the US men, that sending Jason would be losing the third spot, that sending Jason would be costing Vincent his future...

And similarly, Vincent had also been just a Junior that year. He'd been to one CS event, which he mucked up. We were told to ignore it (because he was injured). And then he produced a good skate at Nationals with lots of quads (all of which were much sketchier than Ilia's). Vincent is ready! People like you cried. He needs to be established!

USFS correctly sent Jason, who did precisely the job asked of him and helped Nathan retain the three spots for the Olympics. Vincent made his Senior debut on the GP the next season, where he had a middling debut at best and hardly lit the world on fire, and then was sent to the Olympics and Worlds anyway. So it was hardly what you would call a huge setback, or cutting off the nose to spite the face...and guess what? When Vincent was sent to his first Senior Worlds? He screwed it up.

Zhao has a world medal. Jason does not. Zhao has a Senior grand priz win Jason doesn’t. Zhao has the number two season best Jason doesn’t.

Yes Jason is more consistent but that is because he is doing far easier content.
 
Wait, are you now saying that Jason does not even deserve first alternate status? Because that is a joke. Who else does, in your twisted little brain?
He does but the point is there is no real Illia getting awarded for anything.
 
I know, I know.
LOL - I accidentally hit enter before I finished my response...

So, here's the rest of it...

At least be honest here. Over in the US Men's thread, before the Olympic team announcement you were telling us that Jason being given the Worlds assignment while Ilia got the Olympics spot would be a slap in the face. That the USFS would basically be saying "thanks for nothing, now go help us get 3 spots for next season".

I'm not going to get into an argument that there's anyone who deserves the 1st alternate position (for either Worlds or the Olympics) over Brown/Malinin. None of the other guys were even close. So, that's not the issue. It's that, yes, getting Worlds over the Olympics is a bone being tossed out, because the USFS knows that it's doing wrong by one of those two guys in not giving them the Olympics spot. It doesn't matter which guy you ultimately support in the argument. If the USFS feels like one guy deserves the Olympics spot then they should have the balls to stick to their ****ing guns on the topic and send that guy to Worlds also.

I know, I know, I was raging while we were waiting for the Worlds/4CCs assignments that they better at least give Malinin the Worlds spot ;), but upon reflection, it just doesn't sit right with me - especially because Malinin doesn't have the Worlds SP min and they're going to have to send him somewhere to get it but with things the way they are with Omicron right now who knows if the two scheduled events this month and next month actually happen and then where does that leave him? On the outside of Worlds, looking in while Brown steps into that assignment as well, which would really be unfair to Malinin in the end, especially if Jr Worlds gets cancelled and he loses any opportunity to earn valuable WS points that would guarantee him GP assignments next season. The juniors-turning-seniors are already being done hard by the p**demic obliterating last season internationally and could still be screwed even further.
 
Zhao has a world medal. Jason does not. Zhao has a Senior grand priz win Jason doesn’t. Zhao has the number two season best Jason doesn’t.

Yes Jason is more consistent but that is because he is doing far easier content.
I know that you struggle to string a comprehensive sentence together, but if you're going to argue in favour of a skater then at least spell his four letter surname correctly for FFS :rolleyes:
 
This is a silly argument. How did Jason do it? He did JGP, JGPF, JWC, and then went on to Senior GP the next year, along with a group of other graduating Juniors. That's how it's normally done. That's how Nathan did it. That's how Vincent did it.

Yes, it's unfortunate timing that Ilia happened to lose a Junior season to the rona last year. I mean, he could also have put in for Senior GP consideration this year if he wanted. They chose to go Junior, which was understandable, but they had to know where that would have left him for BOW consideration.
And Vincent did not win the world in his first senior Grand Prix. I would say Ilias early season was better than Vincent’s.

I am sorry do you know for sure USFSA would have given him That spot? He did the only thing to make sure he could get two spots in the future.

Once again my issue with this is body of work needs to also take into account ability.

Do you know why Russia is dominating in pairs and in ladies?

Because their young skaters know that if they go out there and they dominate technically they will be picked for major teams and their older skaters know they will not be unless they compete with the youngsters.

What you are suggesting here especially with covid is an impossible mountain for a young skater to make teams and this is over a skater who is not even competitive for an individual medal.

This isn’t even about getting the most competitive team.
 
The split doesn't sit well with me either. It confirms that the USFS looks at the Olympics differently and treats it like a "lifetime achievement award." If that's the case, spell it out in the criteria -- e.g., skaters with less than two years of experience at the senior level are unlikely to be considered at all except in rare circumstances.

I can't come up with another explanation as to why someone is good enough for Worlds (which have higher minimums and on which placements depend), but not the Olympics.

If Jason Brown is the right choice, name him to the World team, too. Not naming him to the World team presumes his retirement, which is unfair in a different way.
 
If Jason Brown is the right choice, name him to the World team, too. Not naming him to the World team presumes his retirement, which is unfair in a different way.
No. I don't think Brown is the right choice over Malinin for the Olympics (assuming we follow the criteria - if we forget about the criteria for a second, then I'd send Malinin/Zhou/Chen), but splitting Malinin/Brown for the two major competitions can make sense. They were both in the same tier. Further, there will be a drastically reduced field at these Worlds, meaning someone with a big tech advantage can end up medalling, even if they make a couple of mistakes - an advantage that Brown simply lacks. Nothing to do with presumption of retirement.
 
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The Japanese fed does split in the recent history but without half the drama that is going on.
Someone is gonna be upset if someone skates lights out and get left off the Olympics even if usfs followed their criteria.
And if a reliable skater who can get solid top ten gets left out the team half of the fandom will piss off too
 
Repeating myself, I really think this is all about the team event at the Olympics and a sign that Nathan is going to opt out completely. If there was no team event, I think they’d have gone with top 3 from nationals. I think if Nathan was for sure doing the short for the team event, I think the top 3 would have been sent.

So, if Nathan is not doing the team event at all…. You don’t want to put Vincent up in the short after he failed to make the FS at worlds last year. Malinin was brilliant at nationals, but he has no senior international championship experience and only one senior international event that did not go as well as it could have. He had nothing to lose here, but skating at the Olympics in the team event when it’s not just your hopes and dreams on the line, but a whole group of people… that’s a lot of pressure to put on a kid untested on the biggest stage. What if he blinked under the pressure and lost valuable points? Likewise, even if he skated well, there’s still a lot of development needed on the non jump parts of his skating and an international panel is not going to give him the PCS. If you’re looking at the team event, you want someone you pretty much know what you’re going to get performance-wise and score wise. If Nathan is not skating either part of the team event…. USFS knows what an international panel will do with Jason in the team short. Given who the other counties are likely to put up and the track records of those men, Jason is likely at least to finish second in that segment and could possibly win it. If Nathan isn’t doing the team event, they will need to gamble on Vincent for the long because they’ll need the base value. If I’m trying to strategize the team event for the usfs and I don’t have Nathan Chen to use…. Jason is who I’d use in the short.

It’s all about the team event with this and (if Nathan isn’t doing it) not wanting to risk it on Vincent after last years worlds or put that weight on the shoulders of a kid who has never skated at a senior international championship before.

Now, worlds is a different story because no team event. Spots are on the line, but it’s not like a bad skate is going to put the medal chances/hopes of a bunch of other skaters from the other disciplines at risk whereas having someone unknown or unreliable in the team short at the Olympics does.

If Nathan isn’t skating the team event and this is why they want Jason in Beijing, I get it. We see gymnastics teams include a particular gymnast for the benefit of the team medal over individual event odds. With the inclusion of the team event at the Olympics, at some point, we were going to start see some choices made based on who they trust for that.
 

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