USFS' Athlete Selection Procedures for 2022 Olympics

[Rukia]

Bavarian Open is the same week as 4CCs and then there is Challenge Cup in late February but that would be awfully close to Jr Worlds.

Do we know who the 4CCs team is yet?

Not that I've been able to find. Let's start a conspiracy about that so we'll have something new to argue about.

 

[Orm Irian]

It makes me sad that US Nationals in the Olympic year has basically become a meaningless event.

Try telling all the athletes who competed knowing perfectly well that they stood not a snowball's chance in hell of being selected for the Olympics that their work at this event was meaningless, why don't you?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Once again if Ilia isn’t given a senior championship how is he suppose to get those scores to go on GP and develop a body of work?

If you look at the actual criteria, and the results that Karen-W has been carefully and painstakingly documented all season long, you can see that if you actually turn senior at the beginning of an Olympic year, and you compete in international events -- Cranberry, anyone? -- including Challenger Series events, which have no minimums, you are judged on those scores compared to ranges of prior year's Worlds scores, and that includes trends. Placements don't matter, except of course, scores from prior Worlds, because they fall into the prescribed ranges of prior Worlds' scores. A GP gets the same weight as Worlds and as Cranberry.

If you choose to go the (mainly) Junior route, then you are going to be compared to skaters who've got the experience of competing senior programs with the extra choreo element and no jump or spin limitations in the SP, and aren't switching back and forth (which Malinin would have done, had JGPF not been canceled.)

But as long as a skater is age-eligible in seniors, skating juniors is a choice and calculated risk, but it relies on weaker competition. Zhou and Edmunds won that bet. Malinin didn't.

 

[becca]

If you look at the actual criteria, and the results that Karen-W has been carefully and painstakingly documented all season long, you can see that if you actually turn senior at the beginning of an Olympic year, and you compete in international events -- Cranberry, anyone? -- including Challenger Series events, which have no minimums, you are judged on those scores compared to ranges of prior year's Worlds scores, and that includes trends. Placements don't matter, except of course, scores from prior Worlds, because they fall into the prescribed ranges of prior Worlds' scores.

If you choose to go the (mainly) Junior route, then you are going to be compared to skaters who've got the experience of competing senior programs with the extra choreo element and no jump or spin limitations in the SP, and aren't switching back and forth (which Malinin would have done, had JGPF not been canceled.)

But as long as a skater is age-eligible in seniors, skating juniors is a choice and calculated risk, but it relies on weaker competition. Zhou and Edmunds won that bet. Malinin didn't.

Illia didn’t have the opportunity to skate a Senior GP because he didn’t get to skate juniors last year.

This is unfair. Especially since I am willing to bet if they has a skate of at another competition I am willing to bet good money he would beat Brown?

Once again how pray tell was he suppose to get a body of work?

 

[VGThuy]

Zhou actually chose to skate as a senior internationally during the fall of 2017. All this talk of Mirai and Liu, the truth is, Ilia wasn’t competing against them for a spot. He was competing against Chen, Zhou, and Brown. Three men who garnered a high BOW to overcome. Ilia could have chosen to compete as a senior and done more challenger events but he didn’t except one time, and look at his protocols there. I bet if he scored higher in the LPs at one other JGP event and at his one senior challenger, he’d have a better argument.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Illia didn’t have the opportunity to skate a Senior GP because he didn’t get to skate juniors last year.

He didn't need a GP: he could have gone to five senior internationals that need neither invitations nor minimums, CS or not, and established scores and a BOW to equal or surpass Brown's. USFS could have sent him to Nebelhorn to earn the third spot for US Men.

And he still could have gone to Jr. Worlds, but he might have had to earn the junior minimums somewhere. (In his sleep.)

 

[Karen-W]

Zhou actually chose to skate as a senior internationally during the fall of 2017. All this talk of Mirai and Liu, the truth is, Ilia wasn’t competing against them for a spot. He was competing against Chen, Zhou, and Brown. Three men who garnered a high BOW to overcome. Ilia could have chosen to compete as a senior and done more challenger events but he didn’t except one time, and look at his protocols there. I bet if he scored higher in the LPs at one other JGP event and at his one senior challenger, he’d have a better argument.

Honestly, I don't think it was his FS scores in any of his events that hurt him - it was the SP at Cup of Austria, which was well below his usual standard - he missed the Worlds TES min by less than a quarter of a point - and, let's be honest, that was a really bad skate for him.

Not that I've been able to find. Let's start a conspiracy about that so we'll have something new to argue about.

Yeah, there isn't a press release up yet on the USFS page. They really need to get their act together and announce the 4CCs and Worlds assignments.

 

[shuilee]

I wonder if the big debate right now is whether Ilia would get Senior Worlds or Junior Worlds assignment? I expect Ilia wants Senior Worlds, but it's held 10 days after Junior Worlds. So he probably can't do both. I'm sure USFS wants Ilia to do Jr Worlds though to get max slots for next year's JGP.

But I think Ilia's best interest is to focus on 4CC (to get tech minimums) and go to Senior Worlds. Jr Worlds should be backup plan in case 4CC is cancelled due to c0vid (and there's no opportunity for him to get the tech minimums).

 

[Barbara Manatee]

But is USFS going to risk sending their 1st Olympic alternate to 4CCs?

 

[Karen-W]

But is USFS going to risk sending their 1st Olympic alternate to 4CCs?

They are with Green/Parsons.

The USFS could send Ilia to Challenge Cup in The Hague the week after the Olympics end to earn his Worlds SP min if they're concerned they might need to use in Beijing after all.

But, honestly, do we really think that all three of Chen, Brown & Zhou will be in Montpellier? I completely expect Nathan to bow out of Worlds, but even if he doesn't, I'd send Malinin over either Brown or Zhou. Take your pick whichever one you leave off the Worlds team, just don't screw Malinin again.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I wonder if the big debate right now is whether Ilia would get Senior Worlds or Junior Worlds assignment? I expect Ilia wants Senior Worlds, but it's held 10 days after Junior Worlds. So he probably can't do both. I'm sure USFS wants Ilia to do Jr Worlds though to get max slots for next year's JGP.

But I think Ilia's best interest is to focus on 4CC (to get tech minimums) and go to Senior Worlds. Jr Worlds should be backup plan in case 4CC is cancelled due to c0vid (and there's no opportunity for him to get the tech minimums).

Deniss Vasiljevs did junior and senior worlds in 2016. It can be done.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

The USFS could send Ilia to Challenge Cup in The Hague the week after the Olympics end to earn his Worlds SP min if they're concerned they might need to use in Beijing after all.

Yes, I think that's the better option.

 

[shuilee]

My main concern is that Challenge Cup in The Hague will be cancelled due to c0vid. It's a small competition and could easily be cancelled.

4CC is a major ISU championship and highly unlikely to be cancelled. It's a tough decision for Ilia and USFS to map out his path to get technical minimums in a safe way, so maybe that's why it's taking so long for 4CC and Worlds assignment to be posted.

 

[caseyedwards]

It's not goodwill, it's his consistency throughout the fall vs Ilia.

Quadlessnesss is his consistency

 

[Karen-W]

My main concern is that Challenge Cup in The Hague will be cancelled due to c0vid. It's a small competition and could easily be cancelled.

4CC is a major ISU championship and highly unlikely to be cancelled. It's a tough decision for Ilia and USFS to map out his path to get technical minimums in a safe way, so maybe that's why it's taking so long for 4CC and Worlds assignment to be posted.

Nah, they have made those decisions, I'm sure. They're all too busy at the gala to be bothered with those announcements yet.

 

[gkelly]

It makes me sad that US Nationals in the Olympic year has basically become a meaningless event.

You do realize that Nationals serves many purposes, right? Choosing the team for the biggest international competition of the season is only one of those purposes. All the other reasons Nationals exist are just as meaningful as they ever are.

 

[yeslek]

.

 

[Karen-W]

i heard he doesn’t have the minimum for 4CC and that they are the same as worlds?

No, they are not.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/25474-2370-tes-video-evaluation-isu-world-championships-2021/file

Worlds Men
SP - 34
FS - 64

Euros/4CCs/Olympics Men
SP - 28
FS - 46

https://results.isu.org/isujsstat/tes3/stsmjustsen3.htm

Ilia's current SP TES is 33.78 and his FS TES is 85.77 - so he missed the Worlds SP by 0.22 at Cup of Austria.

 

[Frau Muller]

Jason, Nathan, Vincent.

Disgusting the decision; not the individual skaters

 

[shuilee]

Are these ISU competitions below eligible for getting technical minimums? I went on the ISU website and they have a bunch of competitions in month of February that I've never heard of, but they do exist:

Sofia Trophy - Bulgaria
Merano Ice Trophy - Italy
Dragon Trophy/Tivoli Cup - Slovenia
Jegvirag Cup - Hungary
Sarajevo Open - Bosnia
Challenge Cup - Netherlands (this one for sure counts, but I wonder if the lesser known ones count for ISU tech minimums)

And is there a minimum required number of competitors? For example, in the past, the Jegvirag Cup only had 2 men compete for the Senior Event. Hopefully Ilia's scores would still count if only 2 men show up to compete, for example.

 

[Karen-W]

Are these ISU competitions below eligible for getting technical minimums? I went on the ISU website and they have a bunch of competitions in month of February that I've never heard of, but they do exist:

Sofia Trophy - Bulgaria
Merano Ice Trophy - Italy
Dragon Trophy/Tivoli Cup - Slovenia
Jegvirag Cup - Hungary
Sarajevo Open - Bosnia
Challenge Cup - Netherlands (this one for sure counts, but I wonder if the lesser known ones count for ISU tech minimums)

And is there a minimum required number of competitors? For example, in the past, the Jegvirag Cup only had 2 men compete for the Senior Event. Hopefully Ilia's scores would still count if only 2 men show up to compete, for example.

Bavarian Cup is the same week as 4CCs in Oberstdorf and the US has a TBD entry for the Senior Men (as well as TBDs in several other categories) - https://bev-eissport.de/v2/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/BavarianOpen2022Entries.pdf

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

I wonder if the original plan was to send Ilia to Bavarian Open to be ready for Worlds withdrawals and USFS didn't expect him to be in the Olympics conversations.

 

[Karen-W]

I wonder if the original plan was to send Ilia to Bavarian Open to be ready for Worlds withdrawals and USFS didn't expect him to be in the Olympics conversations.

Could be but then why not send him to 4CCs? It accomplishes the same goal, which is the Worlds SP min he just missed.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

Could be but then why not send him to 4CCs? It accomplishes the same goal, which is the Worlds SP min he just missed.

Because he's now the first alternate and potentially might be needed in Beijing? My suspicion was that the initial conversations about Worlds occurred before his stellar skates.

 

[Karen-W]

Because he's now the first alternate and potentially might be needed in Beijing? My suspicion was that the initial conversations about Worlds occurred before his stellar skates.

Possibly. I'm just not sure, right now, what the difference is in naming him/sending him to 4CCs vs sending him to Bavarian Open since they are the same week. If they're going to need him in Beijing then they'd be foolish to send him overseas at all that week.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

Possibly. I'm just not sure, right now, what the difference is in naming him/sending him to 4CCs vs sending him to Bavarian Open since they are the same week. If they're going to need him in Beijing then they'd be foolish to send him overseas at all that week.

Well they had to make room for Camden at 4Cs.

I forgot Bavarian Open was the same week and the Olympics are coming up. Time has no meaning anymore.

 

[bladesofgorey]

So I asked this a while back in the ladies thread but it probably belongs here instead:
In order for an alternate (or alternates) to be able to replace anyone who either falls ill/gets injured/tests positive within the bubble time frame for Beijing won't they need to be sent to China early as well just in case they need to step in? I mean, I hope USFA is doing the math as well as budgeting for the travel and figuring out the logistics for one if not two additional subs to be on site.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Are these ISU competitions below eligible for getting technical minimums?

Any senior international on the ISU list that has a minimum of two entries from two different members in the discipline, plus the standard requirements for judges and technical panels counts towards minimums. They have to be earned 21 days for a championship.

For Jr. Worlds, it has to be a junior international, same minimum entries, judges and tech panel requirements.

 

[Karen-W]

So I asked this a while back in the ladies thread but it probably belongs here instead:
In order for an alternate (or alternates) to be able to replace anyone who either falls ill/gets injured/tests positive within the bubble time frame for Beijing won't they need to be sent to China early as well just in case they need to step in? I mean, I hope USFA is doing the math as well as budgeting for the travel and figuring out the logistics for one if not two additional subs to be on site.

I don't think we have any firm information on how/whether or not countries can get their alternates into China/Beijing to be on standby should one of the named athletes test positive. I didn't see anything in the IOC/Beijing C19 playbook about it.

 

[misskarne]

Once again if Ilia isn’t given a senior championship how is he suppose to get those scores to go on GP and develop a body of work?

I mean make this argument and no young skater ever makes a major team if all then men are too 8

This is a silly argument. How did Jason do it? He did JGP, JGPF, JWC, and then went on to Senior GP the next year, along with a group of other graduating Juniors. That's how it's normally done. That's how Nathan did it. That's how Vincent did it.

Yes, it's unfortunate timing that Ilia happened to lose a Junior season to the rona last year. I mean, he could also have put in for Senior GP consideration this year if he wanted. They chose to go Junior, which was understandable, but they had to know where that would have left him for BOW consideration.