(Updated) Denis Ten Murdered: was stabbed in the thigh

[GoForGold]

I am late hearing this news, but my God what a tragedy, and to happen to such a nice man too.

Bless you Denis, and RIP. Kazakhstan and the FS world, will never forget you

 

[Tinami Amori]

Legal issues update: Both sides, Ten's family and families of the convicted (3 people) filed appeals with court, disputing verdicts. Ten's family as before insists on "pre-arranged murder" and stiffer sentences for all; families of convicted claiming the sentences are too harsh, it was an accident and unplanned.

https://zonakz.net/2019/02/19/v-gorsud-almaty-postupilo-delo-ubijc-denisa-ten/

https://www.inform.kz/ru/delo-ob-ub...pila-na-rassmotrenie-v-gorodskoy-sud_a3499771

 

[Spun Silver]

I hope Denis's family has good legal advice. They are risking letting the killers get off easier!

 

[aftershocks]

... it was an accident

Well, stabbing Denis was definitely intentional on the part of these thieves, not an 'accident.'

 

[Japanfan]

Well, stabbing Denis was definitely intentional on the part of these thieves, not an 'accident.'

I think Tinami means not pre-meditated when she says accidental. Spontaneous is probably a better word than accidental.

But I question whether the family's insistence on pre-arranged murder will do Denis justice.

 

[aftershocks]

Oh boy, suffice to say the perpetrators intentionally set out on a night of crime, and they took a knife with them. They intended to inflict bodily harm upon Denis, and his death is the direct result of their criminal actions.

 

[taf2002]

Oh boy, suffice to say the perpetrators intentionally set out on a night of crime, and they took a knife with them. They intended to inflict bodily harm upon Denis, and his death is the direct result of their criminal actions.

I agree. I think a death in the commission of another crime is considered pre-meditated if the other crime was pre-planned. At least in the USA. Like when you rob a convenience store & the clerk is killed.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Well, stabbing Denis was definitely intentional on the part of these thieves, not an 'accident.'

Well, you'll need to locate the convicts' defense attorney in Kazakhstan and convince him to change the wording in his appeal....

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t know how it is in Kazakhstan but some of the posts here aren’t definitions of premeditation. However a murder doesn’t have to be premeditated in many states to get stiff sentences.

 

[MsZem]

I agree. I think a death in the commission of another crime is considered pre-meditated if the other crime was pre-planned. At least in the USA. Like when you rob a convenience store & the clerk is killed.

That's the felony murder rule. I don't know about Kazakhstan, but it's not necessarily a legal approach in other countries; in some places it's definitely been abolished.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don’t know how it is in Kazakhstan but some of the posts here aren’t definitions of premeditation. However a murder doesn’t have to be premeditated in many states to get stiff sentences.

I am not sure what the proper english term is, but Ten's mother/family and their lawyer are claiming that Denis' murder was a "pre-arranged set up", that someone or a group had a strategic interest in his death, that someone paid to have him murdered, and that the convicted 3 people staged the mirror robbery to entice Denis into a fight in order to kill him. They are asking to review the "20 pieces of evidence they submitted during trial" to prove their accusations of "conspiracy" and feel that these evidence were not properly evaluated. Thus they want harsher sentence for the three convicted.

The families and lawyers of the two men convicted are claiming that there was no intent to kill, even when knife was used, in their opinion in "self defense". So they are using the words "not intended to kill" and that the killing was "unplanned and random, rather an unfortunate outcome, which could have been just a wound, if knife hit another part of the body".

 

[VGThuy]

What the Ten family is claiming definitely sounds like premeditation. The families of the convicted are claiming something closer to involuntary manslaughter. There are other degrees in between. Again, it depends on the state as states have their own definitions and grading. Plus, this is Kazakhstan so me using US definitions is a bit useless but I was responding to posts using their own knowledge of how it works in the U.S.

ETA: what some people described is felony murder which some states do recognize. Felony Murder is a murder in the first degree but without premeditation to commit a murder, but is a homicide that results from the commission of another dangerous felony. It’s a bit controversial.

 

[aftershocks]

Well, you'll need to locate the convicts' defense attorney in Kazakhstan and convince him to change the wording in his appeal....

I'm not rolling my eyes at you Tinami. Thanks for keeping us informed. Obviously, I'm upset about the entire situation, and the fact that nothing is going to bring Denis back. His death was senseless, and the people who caused it should suffer for their actions. In the end, they surely will, regardless of their ultimate prison time.

The whole 'not intended to kill' with a knife defense is pathetic and ridiculous. Obviously, by using a knife, they didn't actually care what kind of bodily harm they inflicted. There is such a thing as having an artery slashed and bleeding to death, which excuse me, is what actually happened to Denis. In addition, claiming the need to use a knife for self-defense is baseless, particularly when the person they say was attacking them was outnumbered and was not carrying a weapon.

 

[Tinami Amori]

On Feb 21st, in Alma Ata, there will be an opening night, presentation of a film, Denis Ten's Documentary "The Greatest Show on Earth". It will be shown for 10 days. no info yet when it will be available outside of Kazakhstan. But there is a clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw7cr3NSTrU

articles
https://www.zakon.kz/4957785-dokumentalnyy-film-denis-ten.html
https://24.kz/ru/news/social/item/298014-film-denisa-tena-pokazali-v-almaty

 

[taf2002]

That's the felony murder rule. I don't know about Kazakhstan, but it's not necessarily a legal approach in other countries; in some places it's definitely been abolished.

Aren't all murders felonies? Even manslaughter is a felony. I don't understand the term.

 

[VGThuy]

Felony murder gives the same criminal liability to the accused as if he/she had planned to murder someone even if he/she made no such plans. In some cases with felony murder, a person just has to commit a felony (that doesn’t merge with an element of murder like aggravated assault) like armed robbery and not actually kill anybody but can still be charged with first degree murder under the felony murder rule for being in the commission of the other felony I.e. armed robbery. Some states that still have felony murder amended it to give a defense of minimal/minor participant of the commission of the other felony.

 

[mjb52]

Aren't all murders felonies? Even manslaughter is a felony. I don't understand the term.

It's a term for a specific situation, where a person is responsible for a death that occurs in the course of a felony that they are committing. They may not have specifically intended for that death to occur but they are responsible nonetheless. So it is a "type" of murder, whose definition depends on the U.S. state you are in. It can be extended to some weird situations, like I think a person being charged with felony murder for the death of someone they were robbing a bank with if that person was shot by a security guard (this is a hypothetical example and I only have one year of law school many years behind me so please do some independent research!), so it's controversial. And it shouldn't be taken to apply to Kazakhstan!

 

[VGThuy]

It's a term for a specific situation, where a person is responsible for a death that occurs in the course of a felony that they are committing. They may not have specifically intended for that death to occur but they are responsible nonetheless. So it is a "type" of murder, whose definition depends on the U.S. state you are in. It can be extended to some weird situations, like I think a person being charged with felony murder for the death of someone they were robbing a bank with if that person was shot by a security guard (this is a hypothetical example and I only have one year of law school many years behind me so please do some independent research!), so it's controversial. And it shouldn't be taken to apply to Kazakhstan!

That's exactly the example I was thinking about! It's controversial because it sort of goes against the ideas behind criminal law which is matching mens rea and actus reus. I do remember some heated topics during "rape week" and going into strict liability laws and how it takes away the need to prove the mens rea.

 

[aftershocks]

On Feb 21st, in Alma Ata, there will an opening night, presentation of a film, Denis Ten's Documentary "The Greatest Show on Earth". It will be shown for 10 days. no info yet when it will be available outside of Kazakhstan. But there is a clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw7cr3NSTrU

^^ Wow, thanks. I must have missed write-ups about this project. What was the timeline of making it? Had they finished before Denis' death? Is the 'Greatest Show' production number in the promotional clip taken from the last Denis & Friends show that toured Kazahstan?

Just watching Denis in this show brings a pang to my heart because of all the beauty and creativity this sport has lost with his passing. I hope Denis' friends will be inspired by his example to continue trying to think outside-the-box to expand possibilities for the sport beyond the hidebound competitive realm, which is so heavily strictured and limited by the ISU's old fogy notions and deadening political conflicts of interest.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Felony murder gives the same criminal liability to the accused as if he/she had planned to murder someone even if he/she made no such plans. In some cases with felony murder, a person just has to commit a felony (that doesn’t merge with an element of murder like aggravated assault) like armed robbery and not actually kill anybody but can still be charged with first degree murder under the felony murder rule for being in the commission of the other felony I.e. armed robbery. Some states that still have felony murder amended it to give a defense of minimal/minor participant of the commission of the other felony.

If you or anyone is interested to look up the info in English and give your opinion, here it is:

New (as of 2014) Penal Code of Kazakhstan.
https://www.unodc.org/res/cld/document/penal-code_html/New_penal_code.pdf

Kiyasov was convicted on 2 counts (he is the one who was standing watch/guard, and did the stabbing).
Article 192 (participation in robbery), sections 1 and 4.
It is on page 75 in the link provided.
Article 99 (murder/killing with/result of violence), sections 7 and 8.
It is on page 44 in the link provided.

Kudaibergenov was convicted on 3 counts (he was removing mirrors, had the physical fight with Ten).
Article 188 (theft), section 2 (sub-section 2. recidivism) (repeat offense?? in english) for previous thefts.
It is on page 75 in the link provided.
Article 192 (robbery), sections 1 and 4.
It is on page 75 in the link provided.
Article 99 (murder/killing with/result of violence), sections 7 and 8.
It is on page 44 in the link provided.
----

Article 99, section 7, 8 already cover possible "conspiracy" and pre-arrangement.
7) committed by group of persons, group of persons on previous concert, criminal group;
8) for selfish motives, as well as by hire or linked with robbery with violence or extortion.

What Ten's family is trying to do (because they believe mirrors was a set up, and there is a "gang/interested party on the outside" who wanted Denis dead) is to continue with investigation to find out a) who is behind it, b) and... this is a bit more complicated... to change the emphasis from "initial intent being theft, and murder not the goal but happened" to "murder was the purpose, and theft was a cover-up".

What the two convicted men's families are trying to do, is opposite, to push the emphasis in another direction: it was a petty theft, they needed money, spontaneously decided mirrors are the quickest way, Ten's car was picked randomly, there was no plan to fight or let alone stab, there was an unexpected fight, both parties fought, knife was used on a spare of the moment, no prior thought to murder or cause death. another one of their arguments is that if Ten was not so famous, but a regular person, that's how this case would be viewed (theft and accidental death).

 

[aftershocks]

To take anyone's life (intentionally or unintentionally) is a huge karmic debt the perpetrators are facing. God does not distinguish between so-called 'famous' and 'regular' humanity. That some of us do, is simply a failing, and frankly just an illusion.

 

[ballettmaus]

The families and lawyers of the two men convicted are claiming that there was no intent to kill, even when knife was used, in their opinion in "self defense". So they are using the words "not intended to kill" and that the killing was "unplanned and random, rather an unfortunate outcome, which could have been just a wound, if knife hit another part of the body".

Those lawyers have an interesting take on self-defense.

I don't really understand why Ten's family is so convinced it was a set-up.

 

[VGThuy]

I can see a good lawyer making that argument if facts presented itself to make it look like Ten was after them and was so much stronger than them that they panicked and used a knife to stop him from pummeling them. Of course, I think most people would roll their eyes at that argument (unless the lawyer is super persuasive) because they robbed Denis and they outnumbered him and they still didn't need to use deadly force.

BTW, some states in the U.S. allow a person to use deadly force to defend themselves no matter what level of danger that person was actually in while other states only allow self-defense in cases where the action used to defend yourself is proportional to the danger you were in.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Of course, I think most people would roll their eyes at that argument (unless the lawyer is super persuasive) because they robbed Denis and they outnumbered him and they still didn't need to use deadly force

How many times in the US do police use this defense, and at least their jury isn't rolling their eyes, if it even gets and indictment?

I wouldn't count on much eye-roling.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't really understand why Ten's family is so convinced it was a set-up.

I have not seen anything in the press or being discussed on chats as to why Ten's family is so convinced it was a set-up. But i agree with those who say that probably Ten's family is grief-stricken and have not yet came to terms with senselessness of his death, and that a boys' fight over mirrors resulted in use of a weapon and murder. The "reason" sounds too casual, and "a set-up" would elevate the tragedy to another level.

I can see a good lawyer making that argument if facts presented itself to make it look like Ten was after them and was so much stronger than them that they panicked and used a knife to stop him from pummeling them. Of course, I think most people would roll their eyes at that argument (unless the lawyer is super persuasive) because they robbed Denis and they outnumbered him and they still didn't need to use deadly force.

The two men are claiming exactly that. In their testimony they said: One saw Denis approaching the car, ran away, dropped the bag with mirrors, which supposedly should have been enough to stop any actions further (the owner had his mirrors back). Denis ran after him anyway, started to beat him up, Denis was stronger, the guy started to faint, held on to the fence and slid to the ground. The other guy ran up, saw the fight and his partner on the ground, his first reaction was, without any pre-thinking, to get out the knife and stab, randomly.

They lost me when they started making assumptions "how should one react, and what is reasonable, when his property is being stolen"... That's something Ten's mother can say "if you got your mirrors, why did you chase after them?"... But those who steal don't have a say in how the property owner should react..

 

[VGThuy]

How many times in the US do police use this defense, and at least their jury isn't rolling their eyes, if it even gets and indictment?

I wouldn't count on much eye-roling.

It's because it's the police which is bad enough but when the dead person is say a black or latino man...in the U.S...well you know the history and stats. I think a better comparison would be if a group of people were claiming self-defense for killing a policeman or a well-liked public figure.

 

[MsZem]

It's because it's the police which is bad enough but when the dead person is say a black or latino man...in the U.S...well you know the history and stats. I think a better comparison would be if a group of people were claiming self-defense for killing a policeman or a well-liked public figure.

There have been people who thought police raids were home invasions and shot officers, and this did not turn out well for any of them. The best outcome I'm aware of was the Cory Maye case; he still did ten years in prison, some of them on death row, before pleading guilty to manslaughter and being released.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It looks like Denis Ten's trial and related issues/follow up actions came to partial conclusion.
After all the appeals from all sides, victims and convicts, the court came to the following:

- small leniency for Zhanar Tolybaeva (female who accompanied the 2 men and did not report crime) was originally confined to "medium security colony". She gave birth to a baby boy on March 6, 2019, and her level of punishment was reduced to "transfer for the remaining term to minimal security prison". The term of imprisonment (4 years) has not been reduced and the appeal (to reduce time) declined.

- all appeals declined for Arman Kydaibergenov and Nuraly Kiyasov (2 men engaged in theft and murder). Their codes of accusations and terms of imprisonment remain 18 years each, in max security colony.

- Denis Ten's Mother and the family's 3 lawyers are continuing with their appeal to a) increase the guilty men's terms, and b) reclassify the case as "pre-arranged murder".
https://informburo.kz/novosti/nacha...lu-denisa-tena-tolybaeva-rodila-malchika.html

They are presenting new evidence to court, collected from various sources, including telephone records/sim-cards, and various facts/information from their own private research and detective work. To sum up (not word-for-word translation of the article).

- They are requesting to open a new criminal case, and to question a new suspect, Erzhan Saduov.
- there are "records" showing that Erzhan Saduov and Arman Kydaibergenov were in contact and discussing giving/paying Arman $5000 USD (not mentioned what for).
- that it is a fact that Erzhan Saduov was providing both Arman and Nuraly support while they were in prison during the investigation, bringing them clothes, etc. This information was admitted by Zhanar Tolybaeva in another questioning.
- Saduov and Mr. Isbasarov, the owner of the restaurant "Hedonist" (where Denis was invited for lunch that day) are connected, and have been communicating on the telephone.
- A bunch of sim-cards and telephone records (from the mobile phones of the named) were destroyed, to eliminate indicators of "these connections" and the brother of one of the convicted, Kiyasov, is involved (in destroying sim-cards/telephone records) and needs to be questioned.
- Oxana Ten (mother) also provided telephone records showing that the female, Zhanar Tolybaeva, was receiving phone calls from UK and Switzerland, not only from mobile phones but land-line phones, and would like this investigated. She believes that those who called Zhanar from abroad have connections to Denis, and that it maybe Zhanar who is the "first person" in this crime (as a go-between). Mrs. Ten presented a long and tangled explanation.
https://informburo.kz/novosti/oksana-ten-tolybaeva-igrala-v-ubiystve-denisa-klyuchevuyu-rol.html

The court is continuing to review all presented by Ten's family. This part of the case remains "open".

 

[Cherub721]

- Sadutov and Mr. Isbasarov, the owner of the restaurant "Hedonist" (where Denis was invited for lunch that day) are connected, and have been communicating on the telephone.

It's all circumstantial, but this is quite creepy. Do we know who invited Denis to lunch?

 

[Tinami Amori]

It's all circumstantial, but this is quite creepy. Do we know who invited Denis to lunch?

His old time friend, who is not in skating. Oxana Ten insisted that he is also questioned, and he told the police that this lunch was a last minute (unplanned) arrangement, and that he was not insisting on a specific restaurant. Apparently his testimony were either confirmed (based on phone records) or at least not contradicted.