U.S. Women [#7]: Make Me a Believer!

Elyce's problem unlike some other of Tammy's skaters isn't her jumps but she looks terrified before the music even begins and has trouble handling nerves. She scored over 142 at Nebelhorn and she was a just up from Juniors skater with not much of a reputation so judges liked what they saw right off the bat and were willing to give her big scores so it's really up to her to show the judges she can do it more then just once in a while. If she could do that she would pass up Sarah because technically she does harder jumps and will get higher PCS scores since she can perform when she's not so tight.
 
As a longtime fan of Alysa, I have to say she delivered a surprisingly strong performance — but it didn’t come out of nowhere. Based on her performances this season, even when others doubted her, I saw incredible progress and resilience in her. So I want to say that predictions are meaningless — a competition is a competition. And the American ladies all did exceptionally well at Worlds, securing spots in the top five. That’s an incredible achievement.


So I have to say, I really dislike all the discussions about who’s going to fall behind. I don’t think that’s a fair way to assess the skaters' performances. Amber and Isabeau did the best they could, and no one can predict how things will go in the next event.
 
Lin-Gracey could have highly variable outcomes depending on the caller. She had a couple of very lucky calls at Junior Worlds, particularly the 3Lz+3T, which was way underrotated. With vibes-based calling like at Junior Worlds or Worlds, she's golden. With the likes of Shin Amano, look out.

I actually think Everhardt's jumps could become more scrutinized, too. I'm not sure how she's escaping an edge call on her flip. She also has generally late rotation that some callers are (correctly) calling as q.
 

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I staid up late last night watching World's Commentary on the Women that was provided by Nicole Bobek and Polina Edmunds. I love Nicole Bobek! I have loved her since she (unexpectedly) won the US National Championships in 1995! She is and always was a free spirit and a breath of fresh air! This was by far my favorite commentary for the event so far. I love how fair and honest both Nicole and Polina were in their assessments. I hope Nicole continues to do commentary because she is wonderful at it...she takes copious notes and always provides a unique perspective.

Both Nicole and Polina talked about the way that many current female competitors pre-rotate their jumps (but don't get penalized for it). Nicole said that the (pre-rotation) technique was not taught in her day and Polina said that she thought it was not fair that the pre-rotaters were not penalized (while the under-rotators were). Polina said that if part of the jump rotates on the ice, it's cheating, whether or not the cheat comes at the beginning or end of the jump.

Elyce Lin-Gracey and Sarah Everhardt were taught the classic technique of jumping up 1st, then rotating. Neither of them pre-rotate their jumps. As a result, they get an excellent vault off of their pick in their toe-jumps and soar up high in those. Dick Button used to talk about how it is unwise to play around with a pole vault. The pre-rotaters never get a good vault from their pick and as a result their jumps are microscopically small. Nicole and Polina pointed out a few women with this kind of technique in their commentary.

I honestly don't think that Sarah Everhardt is going to jump her way onto the Olympic Team next season. Even if she adds a harder triple triple and/or a 3-axel, the judges showed this season that they will still go with Isabeau over Sarah. I think Sarah would best spend her time this summer working with Ting Cui (who trains in her group) on extending her leg-line, turning out and pointing her toe, improving her posture and holding and presenting movement in an artistic way. I think this is the only way the judges will (finally) notice her consistency and excellent jump technique...if it's packaged better.
 
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layman said:

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I staid up late last night watching World's Commentary on the Women that was provided by Nicole Bobek and Polina Edmunds. I love Nicole Bobek! I have loved her since she (unexpectedly) won the US National Championships in 1995! She is and always was a free spirit and a breath of fresh air! This was by far my favorite commentary for the event so far. I love how fair and honest both Nicole and Polina were in their assessments. I hope Nicole continues to do commentary because she is wonderful at it...she takes copious notes and always provides a unique perspective.

Both Nicole and Polina talked about the way that many current female competitors pre-rotate their jumps (but don't get penalized for it). Nicole said that that (pre-rotation) technique was not taught in her day and Polina said that she thought it was not fair that the pre-rotaters were not penalized (while the under-rotators were). Polina said that if part of the jump rotates on the ice, its cheating, whether or not the cheat comes at the beginning or end of the jump.

Elyce Lin-Gracey and Sarah Everhardt were taught the classic technique of jumping up 1st, then rotating. Neither of them pre-rotate their jumps. As a result, they get an excellent vault off of their pick in their toe-jumps and soar up high in those. Dick Button used to talk about how it is unwise to play around with a pole vault. The pre-rotaters never get a good vault from their pick and as a result their jumps are microscopically small. Nicole and Polina pointed out a few women with this kind of technique in their commentary.

I honestly don't think that Sarah Everhardt is going to jump her way onto the Olympic Team next season. Even if she adds a harder triple triple and/or a 3-axel, the judges showed this season that they will still go with Isabeau over Sarah. I think Sarah would best spend her time this summer working with Ting Cui (who trains in her group) on extending her leg-line, turning out and pointing her toe, improving her posture and holding and presenting movement in an artistic way. I think this is the only way the judges will (finally) notice her consistency and excellent jump technique...if it's packaged better.
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I agree, Bobek offered great insight about the competition and how coaching techniques have evolved over time which, as a fan, was the type of insight I craved. What interested me most was Bobek's thoughts on Alysa's approach to competition which she described as changing sports psychology because of the joy and carefree attitude. Will this affect how skaters approach competitions from now on? How will coaches respond to this? I think that one of the factors contributing to Alysa's success is her coaching team and her approach gels well with them. This is not true for every coaching and athlete team. Contrast that with Amber's "attack" approach which seems to have worked wonders for her this season and we have two very different yet operative approaches. I wonder how athletes and coaching teams will learn from both Alysa and Amber who are two different athletes who seem to have found the ingredients that work for them. I think her points further underscore how essential a sports psychologist is, especially for athletes who struggle to get themselves "in the zone."
 
I hate it when people call underrotated jumps "cheated." Poor, faulty, defective, underrotated, yes. But these skaters aren't cheating. If they were cheating the proper remedy would be a ban, not a deduction. [/RANT]
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It's long-term skating lingo, though. People were talking about "cheated jumps" (mostly doubles) 50 years ago, probably longer than that ever since doubles became common. You have to understand the term in that context rather than bringing in outside meanings of the word "cheat."
 
gkelly said:
It's long-term skating lingo, though. People were talking about "cheated jumps" (mostly doubles) 50 years ago, probably longer than that ever since doubles became common. You have to understand the term in that context rather than bringing in outside meanings of the word "cheat."
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100% this. You won’t find a rink in the English speaking world who isn’t using this language.

I do find that the commentators tend not to say this, and I think that’s good. I think to the uninitiated, that word “cheated” would be inflammatory and I’m sure that’s why they don’t say it on air most of the time. There’s been a few slips over the years though that I remember where a commentator has used that word to describe an under rotated jump.

The pre rotation conversation is interesting. Of course egregious pre rotation is a problem and should be looked at. But a certain amount of pre rotation is required on some jumps. You cannot really do a loop without some pre rotation. And generally I find this is where the discourse goes off the rails. It’s difficult to assess how much is too much and how much should be penalized. I do not think the pre rotation is as black and white as under rotation (and we all know that’s already as muddied as heck).
 
gkelly said:
It's long-term skating lingo, though. People were talking about "cheated jumps" (mostly doubles) 50 years ago, probably longer than that ever since doubles became common. You have to understand the term in that context rather than bringing in outside meanings of the word "cheat."
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That doesn't make it right or immunize it from criticism.
 
layman said:

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I staid up late last night watching World's Commentary on the Women that was provided by Nicole Bobek and Polina Edmunds. I love Nicole Bobek! I have loved her since she (unexpectedly) won the US National Championships in 1995! She is and always was a free spirit and a breath of fresh air! This was by far my favorite commentary for the event so far. I love how fair and honest both Nicole and Polina were in their assessments. I hope Nicole continues to do commentary because she is wonderful at it...she takes copious notes and always provides a unique perspective.

Both Nicole and Polina talked about the way that many current female competitors pre-rotate their jumps (but don't get penalized for it). Nicole said that the (pre-rotation) technique was not taught in her day and Polina said that she thought it was not fair that the pre-rotaters were not penalized (while the under-rotators were). Polina said that if part of the jump rotates on the ice, it's cheating, whether or not the cheat comes at the beginning or end of the jump.

Elyce Lin-Gracey and Sarah Everhardt were taught the classic technique of jumping up 1st, then rotating. Neither of them pre-rotate their jumps. As a result, they get an excellent vault off of their pick in their toe-jumps and soar up high in those. Dick Button used to talk about how it is unwise to play around with a pole vault. The pre-rotaters never get a good vault from their pick and as a result their jumps are microscopically small. Nicole and Polina pointed out a few women with this kind of technique in their commentary.

I honestly don't think that Sarah Everhardt is going to jump her way onto the Olympic Team next season. Even if she adds a harder triple triple and/or a 3-axel, the judges showed this season that they will still go with Isabeau over Sarah. I think Sarah would best spend her time this summer working with Ting Cui (who trains in her group) on extending her leg-line, turning out and pointing her toe, improving her posture and holding and presenting movement in an artistic way. I think this is the only way the judges will (finally) notice her consistency and excellent jump technique...if it's packaged better.
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Omgggggggggggggg

I was just coming here to post this and I was like hmmmmm where should I post this in which thread so I came to the US ladies and you’ve already done it.

I love love love Nicole she’s my number two favorite skater of all time behind Angela and this is just a really good episode. I’m only halfway through. I don’t have much time these days so I try to keep watching it in spurts.

Nicoles free spirit in a little bit reminds me up Alysa although Nicole did not seem to have a lot of discipline.

I love listening to Nicole reference her days of skating, which will always be my favorite, pre-IJS. I also love that she references Dick Button and what he would’ve thought of Alysa “not being focused” and doing a cartwheel and still winning lol.

I’m not able to watch all of this and it’s entirety, but I’m hoping they get to Amber at some point. A lot of talk about the World champion naturally and some of Isabeau but Amber finishing top five and being undefeated all year. I wanna hear more people commentate about her. There’s also no worlds videos of Amber on YouTube, which is surprising.

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OK I got to the part where they discuss Amber, Nicole thought maybe by the time she skated the short program her coaching maybe should’ve said you don’t need a triple axel here just go for the double but then I do agree with a Polina said is that that’s how she trains the program and she’s been extremely successful with it, and there was no reason to downgraded to a double axel.
 
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL) said:
Omgggggggggggggg

I was just coming here to post this and I was like hmmmmm where should I post this in which thread so I came to the US ladies and you’ve already done it.

I love love love Nicole she’s my number two favorite scoot skater of all time behind Angela and this is just a really good episode. I’m only halfway through. I don’t have much time these days so I try to keep watching it in spurts.

Nicoles free spirit in a little bit reminds me up Alysa although Nicole did not seem to have a lot of discipline.

I love listening to Nicole reference her days of skating, which will always be my favorite, pre-IJS. I also love that she references Dick Button and what he would’ve thought of Alysa “not being focused” and doing a cartwheel and still winning lol.

I’m not able to watch all of this and it’s entirety, but I’m hoping they get to Amber at some point. A lot of talk about the World champion naturally and some of Isabeau but Amber finishing top five and being undefeated all year. I wanna hear more people commentate about her. There’s also no worlds videos of Amber on YouTube, which is surprising.

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Not to spoil it, but both Nicole and Polina praised Amber profusely. Nicole said that Amber was in the shape of her life and physically had everything that she needed to win. Both pointed out that Amber was still working on the mental. Both noted that Amber is a perfectionist who puts a lot of pressure on herself. Nicole suggested Amber should turn off her brain and just let her body do what she is trained to do. Both noted that Amber tends to lose focus mid-program, so they wanted her to keep taking each element one at a time (and not get ahead of herself).
 
layman said:
Not to spoil it, but both Nicole and Polina praised Amber profusely. Nicole said that Amber was in the shape of her life and physically had everything that she needed to win. Both pointed out that Amber was still working on the mental. Both noted that Amber is a perfectionist who puts a lot of pressure on herself. Nicole suggested Amber should turn off her brain and just let her body do what she is trained to do. Both noted that Amber tends to lose focus mid-program, so they wanted her to keep taking each element one at a time (and not get ahead of herself).
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Amber has been very open about her ADHD which is what absolutely does NOT allow her to turn off her brain. She explained that the short program hasn't been a problem for her, but the long is really impacted by her ADHD and she has worked very hard on techniques to manage her focus for that amount of time. Seems like it would have been nice for Nicole and Polina to do the bare amount of research before spouting off about what Amber should/needs to do.
 
flyingsit said:
Amber has been very open about her ADHD which is what absolutely does NOT allow her to turn off her brain. She explained that the short program hasn't been a problem for her, but the long is really impacted by her ADHD and she has worked very hard on techniques to manage her focus for that amount of time. Seems like it would have been nice for Nicole and Polina to do the bare amount of research before spouting off about what Amber should/needs to do.
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I am sure they meant well. Neither is a psychologist. They were talking from the perspective of what worked for them (as competitive athletes).
 
I haven’t finished the video, but I also thought the pre-rotation discussion was interesting and a conversation that the ISU should be having.

Technique has changed a ton since pre-IJS. Flips are almost unrecognizable with skaters picking to the side instead of straight back and often with a very bent picking leg.

Lutzes aren’t jumped in the lutz corners, but rather from straight entries, which defeats the purpose of showing mastery of the counterrotation.

Etc. Etc.
 
her grace said:
I haven’t finished the video, but I also thought the pre-rotation discussion was interesting and a conversation that the ISU should be having.

Technique has changed a ton since pre-IJS. Flips are almost unrecognizable with skaters picking to the side instead of straight back and often with a very bent picking leg.

Lutzes aren’t jumped in the lutz corners, but rather from straight entries, which defeats the purpose of showing mastery of the counterrotation.

Etc. Etc.
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Yes and for that reason I won’t be so quick to judge a coach solely based on jump technique. A coach can be a good development coach (can teach good skating skills and spins ) but may need a finish coach to help with the hard jumps or competition mentality

And also think Gracie’s first coach who taught good jump technique but not exactly what I would send my kid to.
 
flyingsit said:
Amber has been very open about her ADHD which is what absolutely does NOT allow her to turn off her brain. She explained that the short program hasn't been a problem for her, but the long is really impacted by her ADHD and she has worked very hard on techniques to manage her focus for that amount of time. Seems like it would have been nice for Nicole and Polina to do the bare amount of research before spouting off about what Amber should/needs to do.
Click to expand...

It frustrates me that this gets ignored when it comes to Amber. Now and then people mention her ADHD, and then it gets forgotten again. ADHD doesn't work that way; it's with you permanently for the most part, it doesn't go away after a few therapy sessions. And it's not always well controlled by medication, either. Facile suggestions like "just focus!" aren't helpful. I'm sure Amber would love nothing more than to just let her mind go on autopilot, if she only could ... The neurotherapy treatment that she's done to try and manage her distractibility and stress during competition is impressive. I think she's actually made great strides in her ability to focus and stay much cleaner through a long program, so it would be nice to see her get some credit for that.
 
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clairecloutier said:
It frustrates me that this gets ignored when it comes to Amber. Now and then people mention her ADHD, and then it gets forgotten again. ADHD doesn't work that way; it's with you permanently for the most part, it doesn't go away after a few therapy sessions. And it's not always well controlled by medication, either. Facile suggestions like "just focus!" aren't helpful. I'm sure Amber would love nothing more than to just let her mind go on autopilot, if she only could ... The neuropathy treatment that she's done to try and manage her distractibility and stress during competition is impressive. I think she's actually made great strides in her ability to focus and stay much cleaner through a long program, so it would be nice to see her get some credit for that.
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THIS
 
clairecloutier said:
It frustrates me that this gets ignored when it comes to Amber. Now and then people mention her ADHD, and then it gets forgotten again. ADHD doesn't work that way; it's with you permanently for the most part, it doesn't go away after a few therapy sessions. And it's not always well controlled by medication, either. Facile suggestions like "just focus!" aren't helpful. I'm sure Amber would love nothing more than to just let her mind go on autopilot, if she only could ... The neuropathy treatment that she's done to try and manage her distractibility and stress during competition is impressive. I think she's actually made great strides in her ability to focus and stay much cleaner through a long program, so it would be nice to see her get some credit for that.
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No offense, but nothing about any of the posts & comments made by many, myself included, but also Polina & Nicole, are dismissing or necessarily forgetting Amber's ADHD diagnosis. It is impressive how far she has come in the past year. I have no idea if the neuropathy treatment has reached the pinnacle of impact on Amber, but I'd encourage her to continue on that path before I'd encourage her to add a 2nd triple Axel to her FS next season. The neuropathy has certainly helped her turn over a new leaf in what she's able to deliver consistently in competition - more than just merely attempting the 3A ever did for her in the past.
 
flyingsit said:
Amber has been very open about her ADHD which is what absolutely does NOT allow her to turn off her brain. She explained that the short program hasn't been a problem for her, but the long is really impacted by her ADHD and she has worked very hard on techniques to manage her focus for that amount of time. Seems like it would have been nice for Nicole and Polina to do the bare amount of research before spouting off about what Amber should/needs to do.
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As a person with ADHD, I’m not sure researching ADHD would cause them to come to this conclusion. Amber seems to struggle with turning her brain off, but it’s not as if that’s a necessary conclusion for people with ADHD.

I 100% believe that this is something Amber struggles with, but it’s not just how ADHD works for everyone. Many athletes with ADHD have different experiences just like all people have different experiences.

Just researching ADHD would find many athletes with ADHD who don’t find that this is a an issue. So just “doing your research” would not result in this conclusion automatically.

clairecloutier said:
I think she's actually made great strides in her ability to focus and stay much cleaner through a long program, so it would be nice to see her get some credit for that.
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If you would like to see her getting credit for it, you could just read this thread or any thread from any competition she’s done where she’s gotten credit for that all year.
 
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Theatregirl1122 said:
As a person with ADHD, I’m not sure researching ADHD would cause them to come to this conclusion. Amber seems to struggle with turning her brain off, but it’s not as if that’s a necessary conclusion for people with ADHD.

I 100% believe that this is something Amber struggles with, but it’s not just how ADHD works for everyone. Many athletes with ADHD have different experiences just like all people have different experiences.

Just researching ADHD would find many athletes with ADHD who don’t find that this is a an issue. So just “doing your research” would not result in this conclusion automatically.
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By “doing their research” I meant enough to realize that Amber is dealing with ADHD and has specifically said that a long program is hard for her for that reason. I don’t expect them to have treatment suggestions or anything like that.
 
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