U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

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Top 3 at Challenge Skate:

Dinh Tran, 173.27
Lucas Altieri, 152.44
Alex Wellman, 149.45


I might have said Alex Wellman for the final JGP spot but he had a rough skate today. Dinh has already had a JGP. If I were USFS, I'd pick Sjoberg - he's been on the JGP before, has medaled at Nats. Assuming he is physically OK, he has a lot of potential and could use the experience. Then again, Joonsoo Kim did get a higher summer score...
 
Thanks for the clarification @Sylvia. Now I understand what you were saying @misskarne.

Yes, sorry, I didn't make my point clear. If the UR problem is so bad they're calling 4 at US Nationals, which is notorious for soft calling, then you can bet they'll get called at international level.

Vincent's position in the hierarchy of the US men puzzles me. The way he is described and portrayed and pushed by USFS as this super successful winning skater with perfect jumps is just...not the reality? I'm curious as to what USFS thinks it will achieve with that.

That said, I love Vincent's FS this season and absolutely look forward to seeing it in person. So much better than last season's.

And I can't wait to see Jason's programs this weekend at ACI.
 
Vincent’s record and skating is better than you’re giving him credit for. It’s not like he has failed to do well at major internationals in the past. He’s a junior world champion and has the ability to score high TES as evidenced by the Olympics and Worlds SP. He does have issues with UR when he’s not on and the scores reflect that but he’s not always off. I also don’t understand where you think the USFS is pushing him. If anything they’re giving him the same opportunities as anyone with his resume and abilities are given. It’s not like he’s been given national titles and they really preferred other men on that Olympic team looking at the calling and scores. It’s just that Jason underperformed big time and Miner overperformed to where he placed ahead of Adam, Vincent, and Jason. People always talk about the judges at nationals but I truly believe the callers in all disciplines were playing their own games as well to ensure certain skaters were able to make the team. I mean if Vincent continues to underperform then other Men both older and younger will bypass him. If he doesn’t then he’ll continue to be a player. I just don’t want another four years of complaining about Vincent existing.
 
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Vincent’s record and skating is better than you’re giving him credit for. It’s not like he has failed to do well at major internationals in the past. He’s a junior world champion and has the ability to score high TES as evidenced by the Olympics and Worlds SP. He does have issues with UR when he’s not on and the scores reflect that but he’s not always off.

"on" competitions at Senior level: 2017 + 2018 US Nationals (if you can call three URs and a << in the FS "on"), 2017 Finlandia, 2018 Olympics.

"off" competitions: CoC and IdF 2017, 2018 Worlds, 2018 US Classic.

That's a straight 4-4 split of good/bad, and that's including at least one event in the "good" category that a lot of people would consider a "bad" skate (becomes good on the basis of final finishing position).

I also don’t understand where you think the USFS is pushing him. If anything they’re giving him the same opportunities as anyone with his resume and abilities are given.

Eighty-nine. That was Vincent's PCS at 2018 Nationals in the FS. Eighty-fricking-nine. Don't tell me they're not pushing, because that was worse than Chen being given ninety-one for his empty FS the year before.

I just don’t want another four years of complaining about Vincent existing.

Well, I don't want another year of people complaining that selections like Jason and Max will cost the US three spots and picking Vincent is the only way to get three spots when history showed us the reverse was actually true.
 
SLC is a tough place to skate at so I think Vincent skated decently having won the free skate quite handily. The GPs is where he must prove himself.
 
"on" competitions at Senior level: 2017 + 2018 US Nationals (if you can call three URs and a << in the FS "on"), 2017 Finlandia, 2018 Olympics.

"off" competitions: CoC and IdF 2017, 2018 Worlds, 2018 US Classic.

That's a straight 4-4 split of good/bad, and that's including at least one event in the "good" category that a lot of people would consider a "bad" skate (becomes good on the basis of final finishing position).

Even with the 4-4 split, that sounds WAY better than what your post initially sounded like. You make it sound like Vincent was just some random the USFS picked up off of the street and decided to play favorites with him. You act like he has NO resume whatsoever. You act like he has NO scoring potential when he's on. You act like he had like 3-4 senior seasons prior to this one (his second full senior international season) to show he can never reach that potential.

Even on bad skates, Vincent has shown that he's a better skater than you're describing in his first senior international season at the age of 16. He was second in the LP at 2017 Cup of China. 2017 IDF was bad, but he wasn't that far from Max Aaron in the LP. 2018 Worlds, he was third in the SP and could have won a medal if he replicated his skates at Nationals (I guarantee the calling would have been more generous for landed quads from Vincent at Worlds than they were at Nationals) and the Olympics. He also was having serious back injury before Worlds and is still suffering from them and lost major training time in the off-season right before U.S. Classic, something you refuse to acknowledge when you're dismissing his whole career.

U.S. Classic was bad all-around, but Vincent somehow still won the LP. It's not about him throwing away opportunities he could have grabbed. Instead, you are presenting an issue about the USFS and choosing Vincent. Therefore it's not so much why the USFS is giving him any opportunities so much as which U.S. man has skated much better than him internationally outside of Chen in the past few seasons. What opportunities are they giving him that is unfair compared to the currently competing U.S. skaters? A slot at U.S. Classic? I'm really confused about your post there.

He is in his second year as an international senior and many of those men would kill to have his record. Some men who have been skating for ten senior seasons haven't shown his scoring potential. They killed off his TES advantage somewhat with taking away a jumping pass and passing a rule that one cannot repeat more than one quad in the LP, so if Vincent is still showing more scoring potential in the LP than other U.S. men this season and the next and so on, then that's on the other men.

Eighty-nine
. That was Vincent's PCS at 2018 Nationals in the FS. Eighty-fricking-nine. Don't tell me they're not pushing, because that was worse than Chen being given ninety-one for his empty FS the year before.

Everyone gets a boost, and it's not as if the judges were unanimous with giving him high scores. If were to decrease Vincent's PCS, then we'd have to decrease the nationals inflation in GOE, PCS, and calls for all the other men too. The rankings may have still been the same or different. Judges at nationals do selectively give much higher PCS to some skaters than others, but the calling is also inconsistent and some favored skaters get the benefit-of-the-doubt with calls while others don't. At 2018 Nationals, I'd be hard pressed to say Vincent wasn't being called under a microscope and I remember talk about inconsistent calling during the PBP with other men there. Vincent later on showed he could get most of his quads called rotated at the Olympics.

Well, I don't want another year of people complaining that selections like Jason and Max will cost the US three spots and picking Vincent is the only way to get three spots when history showed us the reverse was actually true.

You know nobody is going to be complaining about Max for the next few years. He has moved on. Let's hope some people will have too. I also don't remember anybody saying Jason will cost the U.S. three spots after what he was able to do at 2017 Worlds unless they were saying his big injury that he suffered last season which made him skate in a way that he was NOT capable of skating will hinder the chances. In that case, it was not irrational. Vincent scoring high in the LP at the Olympics made him a safe bet, something you refuse to acknowledge as you want to paint Vincent in the worst way possible. He was third after the SP so it's not like people were just pulling that idea out of their asses. You know that Vincent's bad Worlds LP showing will prevent anybody from saying that again, even if he somehow skates super well this season and scores high before Worlds. Everyone will remember Worlds last year and doubt he can skate well. You know how fans are.

Anyway, you know how Olympic years are. People get hyped about the new shiny thing and it'll happen in 2022. It's a new Olympic cycle, and Vincent will suffer the fate of other veteran men if he fails to deliver by 2022. If he fails to take advantage of opportunities and continually will have a chronic UR problems to the point where other younger and more promising U.S. men look attractive, you can bet your butt Vincent will be thrown away like yesterday's garbage in favor of shiny new men. It's just the way it works. If I were you, I'd just bide my time and pick a younger U.S. man to root for and you can join the chorus on how Vincent should not be put on the team as he has proven he can't be counted on.
 
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Anyway, you know how Olympic years are. People get hyped about the new shiny thing and it'll happen in 2022. It's a new Olympic cycle, and Vincent will suffer the fate of other veteran men if he fails to deliver by 2022. If he fails to take advantage of opportunities and continually will have a chronic UR problems to the point where other younger and more promising U.S. men look attractive, you can bet your butt Vincent will be thrown away like yesterday's garbage in favor of shiny new men. It's just the way it works. If I were you, I'd just bide my time and pick a younger U.S. man to root for and you can join the chorus on how Vincent should not be put on the team as he has proven he can't be counted on.
TBH these are my exact thoughts on Vincent.

While one would hope he can fix the URs, the changes in the scoring system make UR's quads a lot less valuable moving forward so even if he performs exactly like he did last season throughout his season, he'll do much worse points-wise. OTOH, I can't think of any other US up-and-comer that will challenge his quad count so he may still be competitive despite the URs.
 
Vincent's position in the hierarchy of the US men puzzles me. The way he is described and portrayed and pushed by USFS as this super successful winning skater with perfect jumps is just...not the reality? I'm curious as to what USFS thinks it will achieve with that.

It is puzzling since they never gave Max assignments to Worlds or Four Continents over other competitors! And Max had huge quads!

You know nobody is going to be complaining about Max for the next few years. He has moved on. Let's hope some people will have too

What?! I will be complaining any time I perceive a slight in a post that has nothing to do with him! Also when everyone complains about a skater's music when they skate to music that they like!!

:wuzrobbed
 
I love this from Adam Rippon:

I officially donated my Olympic costume to the @smithsonian today. Pretty cool to soon have something on display in the American History Museum. Now, I just need to convince someone that they need to be next to the ruby slippers.​
Now, this will get me away from auto-piloting to Air and Space the next time I visit DC.
 
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@clairecloutier chatted with Ross Miner after the "Evening with Champions" show at Harvard - link to her review of the show is posted both in the EWC and A Divine Sport threads: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-benefit-sept-14-15-2018.104321/#post-5412934
Miner said that he recently bought a house, which is keeping him busy. He’s also coaching at two rinks in the Boston area and taking several college courses online and at Harvard Extension School.
Ross currently is listed in USFS' 2018-19 Team B envelope and the ISP so I assume this means he registered for qualifying season (he has an automatic bye to 2019 Nationals).
 
Whew! Just caught up with all the men's skating this weekend. Really loved Tomoki's new SP. Free skate music is good, but the program is not as well composed and--not surprisingly--less ready. Looked like Altitude won all four disciplines at the U.S. Classic.
 
Ha ha, the more things change, the more they remain the same. U.S. men have been being wuzrobbed on PCS forever and a day. Let's just be honest: we can see writing on the wall in the early going re scoring. Yes, it's early days yet, but it's the same old rep-based political scoring across disciplines, with a messy twist due to the new rules changes. It's only going to get worse as the season progresses. I call things as I see them, not based on skaters I favor, but based on what I see on the ice and what I know about this sport. Let's just be honest that a lot of the rules changes for the men were pushed forward as soon as a U.S. skater named Nathan Chen pushed the quad boundaries so far, TPTB became aghast, apoplectic and affronted about losing control of manipulative scoring practices.

Quads were king and Hanyu and Javi ruled the golden roost with falls and all. Boyang came up showing that quad-lutz triple and four quads were possible in a fp, just as Hanyu and Javi were attempting to solidify 3 quads in a fp without errors (and their errors were generally turned a blind eye to anyway). It was ok to reward Boyang as a newbie to seniors with a World bronze medal, despite him having a humongous lot to work on in terms of improving his basic skating skills and performance quality. Boyang medaling in his first year in seniors surely inspired Nathan to say, 'Heck, if they are rewarding first year seniors for quad-lutz triples and four quads in a fp, I can do quads and then some.' Nathan changed the nature of the men's game, and the sport's honchos stepped in to regain scoring control. The Nathan Slaythan revolution had some top men worrying about their Olympic-medal chances, but things ultimately righted themselves status-quo-wise. Nathan is still excitingly pushing boundaries technically and creatively, and now he will try to continue doing so, while aceing Yale academically. More power to Nathan Chen! But yeah, it apparently will still be a struggle to see U.S. men, and indeed all skaters scored fairly on PCS.

2018 Lombardia Trophy men results:
http://www.fisg.it/upload/result/4802/SEG003.HTM sp
http://www.fisg.it/upload/result/4802/SEG004.HTM fp
http://www.fisg.it/upload/result/4802/CAT002RS.HTM final results

WTF re Tim Dolensky in low 7s and high 6s on CO and IN! :rolleyes: That's friggin' wrong, wrong, wrong! Andrei Lazukin was way overscored on PCS! Lazukin is a nice skater and he skated cleanly in the sp, but the PCS were too high out the wazoo for Lazukn who is not musical, not creative nor artistic, and definitely not as good a skater interpretively as Dmitri Aliev or Tim Dolensky!!!

I realize that Tim must be much more aggressive competively, and he has to believe in himself and be consistently better technically or near perfect everytime out. But still, why aren't they giving Tim credit due for his superior artistic talents??? I shudder to think how these ISU judges are going to greet Alex Johnson, who is also head-and-shoulders above a number of men artistically, musically and interpretively. This sport and it's judges are simply bonkers when it comes to judging PCS categories. But that's on purpose.
 
Aftershocks:

PCS is the new 6.0. it's just that simple.

How does that equate to U.S. men like Tim Dolensky, Sean Rabbitt, Alex Johnson, (also formerly Grant Hochstein) and sometimes even Jason Brown not being given full credit by international judges for their extraordinary CO and IN? :)
 
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How does that equate to U.S. men like Tim Dolensky, Sean Rabbitt, Alex Johnson and sometimes even Jason Brown not being given full credit by international judges for their extraordinary CO and IN? :)
Because international judges use the PCS to move up and keep down skaters that may be in favor. At least that is my observation and opinion. It wasn't always so clear in the early years of IJS, but since it has been around for over 14 years (?), the officials have learned how to use it and GOE to the advantage of those they wish to elevate.

Jumps are king, the well balanced program seems to be a thing of the past.

Sorry to add politics to this, but I also feel there is some anti USA sentiment involved here, as well. JMHO.
 
Sorry to add politics to this, but I also feel there is some anti USA sentiment involved here, as well. JMHO.

Thanks for your response. ITA that there is anti-U.S. sentiment. Even among U.S. fans, there's anti-U.S. sentiment, strangely enough. The 2003 U.S.-led attempted coup to separate from the ISU only ratcheted up disfavor and disadvantage politically for the U.S. And I think U.S. officials reacting to cast out the leader of that coup and suck up to the ISU hasn't helped matters.

But in any case, the U.S. historically has not dealt with European-centric figure skating politics very well. A former skating official as well as Frank Carroll touched on the history of figure skating politics in their TSL interviews some years back when Jenny Kirk was still part of that podcast. Canada, OTOH, has been much better positioned politically within the ISU -- at least that's the sense I get.

There's also of course the tendency for some to believe that U.S. skaters have it made, and that they have everything anyway so they somehow should not get to win all the time (not that they do or ever have won all of the time). Of course, the balance of power has shifted too with so many wonderful skaters, stars and depth of talent existing in Japan, China, and South Korea, etc. Asian stars dominating podiums, and Asian fans filling arenas has been refreshing and enlivening in many ways. Still, I lament the absence of shows and extensive tours in the U.S., and the lack of more excitement and interest in figure skating in the U.S.
 
Thanks for your response. ITA that there is anti-U.S. sentiment. Even among U.S. fans, there's anti-U.S. sentiment, strangely enough. The 2003 U.S.-led attempted coup to separate from the ISU only ratcheted up disfavor and disadvantage politically for the U.S. And I think U.S. officials reacting to cast out the leader of that coup and suck up to the ISU hasn't helped matters.

But in any case, the U.S. historically has not dealt with European-centric figure skating politics very well. A former skating official as well as Frank Carroll touched on the history of figure skating politics in their TSL interviews some years back when Jenny Kirk was still part of that podcast. Canada, OTOH, has been much better positioned politically within the ISU -- at least that's the sense I get.

There's also of course the tendency for some to believe that U.S. skaters have it made, and that they have everything
anyway so they somehow should not get to win all the time (not that they do or ever have won all of the time). Of course, the balance of power has shifted too with so many wonderful skaters, stars and depth of talent existing in Japan, China, and South Korea, etc. Asian stars dominating podiums, and Asian fans filling arenas has been refreshing and enlivening in many ways. Still, I lament the absence of shows and extensive tours in the U.S., and the lack of more excitement and interest in figure skating in the U.S.

I also think that the current political environment with our lying, bombastic, narcissistic president/administration does not help with the perception of the United States. They're all probably wondering where our brains have gone.
 
I also think that the current political environment with our lying, bombastic, narcissistic president/administration does not help with the perception of the United States. They're all probably wondering where our brains have gone.

I get your drift. However, disaffection for U.S. skaters and anti-U.S. sentiment in figure skating very much predates the current political administration in D.C. I seriously doubt the ISU gives two f's about Trumpster in regard to how U.S. skaters are viewed. But sure, the current political environment in the world infected by Trumpland idiocy doesn't help U.S. stature and prestige in any field of endeavor.

Obviously there are skaters, regardless of country, who came into contact with Trump via Figure Skating in Harlem fundraising galas, etc. Trump was a New York 'big bucks' honcho who was often seen at high profile fund-raising, celeb, and athlete-related galas and events. I mean he was a realtity tv star after all, and a very very bigly person in the whole Trump Tower, New York high profile celeb world, which is clearly where he should have stayed. :blah:
 
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Sylvia, thanks for posting! I had no idea that Alex's family were still in Russia and that he was independently pursuing citizenship! Just some observations: soft tissue injuries can be far more serious and lingering than even a bone break and the PT must be trying for Alex, although so necessary! Also, Texas with the rise of the Cains, etc. is really becoming a skating power center! Love how Ashley Cain and Timothy Leduc are progressing. I have the luxury of watching these competitions real time and will be hoping that Alex does really well!
 
Tim Dolensky article and photos by Miwako Nagata from Lombardia Trophy (well worth reading, IMO): https://europeonice.com/2018/09/26/tim-dolensky-looking-back-and-forward/

Again Sylvia, thanks for posting. Dolensky is one of the most artistically talented and beautiful skaters to watch with nuances that other skaters do not bring to their performance. Again, yet another wonderful skaters to emanate out of the Cain's coaching practice. I'll be watching Tim along with Alex carefully at Nebelhorn!
 
Camden Pulkinen (finally! ;)) skated a clean SP - here's his wonderful performance from Ostrava today (81.01, 1st place): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvAfjiFroZw
He landed 3Lz+3T, 3A++ & 3F(! edge warning) and had 3 level 4 spins and level 3 footwork.
Camden should have really moved up this season with all the retirements with the US Men. No country over the last 5-6 years has had the depth that the US had with its men but with Adam,Max.Grant and Ross retiring the depth isn't there now. With the exception of Nathan, Vincent and Jason Camden could easily beat the rest of the US men such as Alex Johnson, Timothy D and the others. It's going to take the younger skaters to rebuild that depth. He might not have quads but Jason has shown you can be competitive with no quads and he wouldn't embarrass himself.
 
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