U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[Dobre]

Bradie can perform the jumps cleaner than she did at SA. She does have the new combo. She did quite a few clean ones in practices and at least one in the warm-up before her free. But she didn't perform it as cleanly in her run-throughs or her performances. Same with two of her other jumps. Obvious enough for me look up at the jumbo tron to rewatch them. The new combo didn't even require rewatching. It didn't look nearly as "right" as it was looking for her in practices. She looked good here, but not as solid as the three ladies who medaled. They were performing all their jumps during run-throughs in the competition. It was one of those events in which you were going to have to be completely clean. Everything was likely to come down to URs unless you went completely clean, in which case I think the height of Bradie's jumps would have put her over at least Samodurova. Anyway, it's a gutsy move for Bradie to add the combo. Maybe just more work to gain the confidence for performing it in competition.

 

[BittyBug]

@Tavi I think you are reading way too much into Tom Z.'s post. He specifically said he was not challenging the results. He pointed out that had the call been different - which he believed it should have been and provided evidence to support his claim - the outcome would have been different, but he said he respected the results and he congratulated the medalists.

He did not cry wuzrobbed for all of Vincent's UR'd jumps. He questioned only the 4F, which in many people's opinion appeared to be clean.

Tom Z.'s point was not that Zhou should have won bronze. It's that these calls matter and therefore the ISU should have better equipment to support more accurate calling.

Again, I am not a Tom Z. fan, but I think his point was fair and was not presented as just whining because he thought his student should have been on the podium.

 

[CoolGuy]

Really? Just from these two images? I can't even tell what I'm looking at here. I don't see any actual movement which is crucial. As well as seeing it from the best angle, which is always iffy for the judges.

This is a tricky business. A quad jump in real time can seem landed and fine at one angle. And then with slo-mo at a different angle, the slightest of bites and turn of the blade can be detected. And this would happen if they reviewed every single jump by every single skater.

Sorry, I assumed Vincent's Quad Lutz trajectory was well-ingrained into everyone's memory (but that's probably because I reviewed it over and over again). Here is the video of where those images are from:
https://youtu.be/lg_9dy4HVgo?t=272

The first picture in my previous post shows where the foot first touches the ice (based on the youtube video). The second picture in my previous post shows the position of the foot after fully completing the 4th rotation. Since there is a 90 degree difference between where the foot touches the ice vs where the foot fully completes the 4th rotation, the jump was under-rotated by a quarter turn.

 

[VGThuy]

In the first picture, is his blade touching the ice or is it close to the ice but a split second from touching the ice? I need a closer view and a clearer picture to be sure.

 

[vesperholly]

Tom Z is fine to advocate for his student and more video replays, but basing it on Effie Trinket and Caesar Flickerman's extremely untrained and biased eyes is pretty ludicrous. How often this weekend did they declare a jump lovely and rotated, but upon replay they recognized the underrotation?

 

[jlai]

RE: the quad lutz, I don't know about the rotation, but that seems an unclear edge to me.
His 3 lutz otoh seems ok on the edge.

Nathan's 4lutz in the lp, otoh, had a clear outside edge on the takeoff, which makes me wonder if that helped him vault in the air and rotate (not that I'm a jump specialist)

While I am on the topic, I remember Chen won novice and juniors at a young age, and stayed in novice and juniors for 5 years before trying quads. I think doing so helped him get the basic technique down to the point that he can count on that with the harder jumps now.
Vincent also won novice at 10, then he went onto the juniors and won, then left for two whole seasons before coming back and immediately went up to senior (nationally). While he managed to play catchup quickly, I can't help but wonder if he lost some time honing the basic technique during those lost young years.

 

[Tavi]

@Tavi I think you are reading way too much into Tom Z.'s post. He specifically said he was not challenging the results. He pointed out that had the call been different - which he believed it should have been and provided evidence to support his claim - the outcome would have been different, but he said he respected the results and he congratulated the medalists.

He did not cry wuzrobbed for all of Vincent's UR'd jumps. He questioned only the 4F, which in many people's opinion appeared to be clean.

Tom Z.'s point was not that Zhou should have won bronze. It's that these calls matter and therefore the ISU should have better equipment to support more accurate calling.

Again, I am not a Tom Z. fan, but I think his point was fair and was not presented as just whining because he thought his student should have been on the podium.

Hmm. I guess I misunderstood one of the posts before yours, because people were talking about changing the score. And that I think would be hugely problematic.

In any case, I agree Tom was very careful to strike the right note, but to me the message was not quite so benign as it seems to you. He must know that the kind of system he’s advocating for would be hugely expensive and not something the ISU is likely to spring for any time soon. So what’s the real point in him making that statement? In my view, it’s “stop calling < on my skater.”

I keep coming back to the fact that all the evidence he presented that the call was wrong came from people who saw the jump from a very different angle than the tech panel did. But it’s the tech panel’s opinion that matters, which begs the question: if your skater has a rep for < - as Vincent does - why are you placing jumps where only the television audience and broadcast crew can see whether or not it’s fully rotated?

 

[aftershocks]

The biggest problem IMO is that the rule is unclear, and it's random enforcement without adequate viewing equipment ends up unfairly targeting certain skaters, which can exacerbate the problems for these skaters rather than helping them beneficially solve what can often be attributed to nerves, not lack of ability. I'm also concerned about the political aspect that can be used to manipulate placements. It becomes too convenient for a skater to end up gaining a rep for being called on URs (some that are not clear URs), and then end up having to face being reviewed at every competition, which adds to the pressure and the likelihood that the anxiety they experience will lead to more problems, not less. Also, when their every jump is reviewed, some end up being called URs that are questionable to be called. The ISU conveniently is ignoring these valid concerns.

Moreover, the ISU relies on lame excuses to back up their calls, and not on state-of-the-art equipment. Under the new rules, judges are going to be hammering skaters, when ironically the ISU can't even make up it's mind about its own direction and rules for solving some very serious and controversial issues. They have been lame historically in addressing nagging concerns that end up spiraling out of control because they didn't get ahead and address issues in an inclusive, unified, and thoughtful way.

The ISU never seems to learn anything. But yet they expect exacting perfection from the skaters, on a selective basis. I'm not talking about calls that are obvious URs. I'm referencing close calls that should not go against skaters. There needs to be a lot more clarity, thoughtful examination and discussion about the instance of URs, what causes them, and how to correct them. The sport pushes skaters to do very difficult technical feats with over-rewards in scoring, and then they change on a dime and suddenly are requesting a slowdown, at the same time they institute an unaccountable GOE range that most judges DO NOT know how to fairly apply. This is figure skating.

 

[aftershocks]

... Vincent also won novice at 10, then he went onto the juniors and won, then left for two whole seasons before coming back and immediately went up to senior (nationally). While he managed to play catchup quickly, I can't help but wonder if he lost some time honing the basic technique during those lost young years.

I believe Vincent was injured during that time, so what point are you trying to make? If he's out injured, that's just something he had to deal with. Everyone's career trajectory is not going to be the same.

I do agree that Vincent needs to slow it down with tackling the quads, but I blame the sport that overvalued quads with a hammer, not the skaters who are battling to succeed in this impossibly demanding and frustrating sport.

 

[BittyBug]

Tom Z is fine to advocate for his student and more video replays, but basing it on Effie Trinket and Caesar Flickerman's extremely untrained and biased eyes is pretty ludicrous. How often this weekend did they declare a jump lovely and rotated, but upon replay they recognized the underrotation?

Are you talking about Tara and Johnny? If so, you undermine your argument by dismissing them through name calling. But putting that aside, maybe we listened to different broadcasts because they called plenty of under rotations in real time. And to suggest that they have "untrained" eyes? They have spent their life in the sport.

I understand that Tara and Johnny may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think they are the ignorant idiots you present them to be.

 

[jlai]

I believe Vincent was injured during that time, so what point are you trying to make? If he's out injured, that's just something he had to deal with. Everyone's career trajectory is not going to be the same.

I do agree that Vincent needs to slow it down with tackling the quads, but I blame the sport that overvalued quads with a hammer, not the skaters who are battling to succeed in this impossibly demanding and frustrating sport.

He did have a surgery early in the 2013-4 season but he reportedly wasn't skating at all the season after that. Like he quitted and came back.

 

[CoolGuy]

In the first picture, is his blade touching the ice or is it close to the ice but a split second from touching the ice? I need a closer view and a clearer picture to be sure.

Here are close ups from the 1080p YouTube source.

Take off position (for reference):
https://i.imgur.com/rUsUYiX.jpg

Frame 1
Frame 2
Frame 3
Frame 4 <-- Toepick touches.
Frame 5
Frame 6
Frame 7

I would say that Frame 4 shows the toe-pick hitting the ice at the 3/4 mark of the rotation (I recommend opening all 7 frames in tabs and ctrl-tabbing through them for your own make-shift frame-by-frame playback, or you can just click here for an animated gif from giphy).

 

[VGThuy]

If this was a trial and I was the attorney for the other side, I'd be putting a lot of doubt about the clarity of the picture to the jury.

 

[aftershocks]

Hmm. I guess I misunderstood one of the posts before yours, because people were talking about changing the score. And that I think would be hugely problematic.

In any case, I agree Tom was very careful to strike the right note, but to me the message was not quite so benign as it seems to you. He must know that the kind of system he’s advocating for would be hugely expensive and not something the ISU is likely to spring for any time soon. So what’s the real point in him making that statement? In my view, it’s “stop calling < on my skater.”

I keep coming back to the fact that all the evidence he presented that the call was wrong came from people who saw the jump from a very different angle than the tech panel did. But it’s the tech panel’s opinion that matters, which begs the question: if your skater has a rep for < - as Vincent does - why are you placing jumps where only the television audience and broadcast crew can see whether or not it’s fully rotated?

The sport is political to begin with. Tom Z was diplomatic in the way he addressed the situation, and I personally feel he has the right to push back. The ISU and the judges are NOT perfect. They need to get a lot of things right themselves, instead of being overfocused on protecting judges. The ISU needs to be more inclusive in bringing coaches into the conversation before untested rules changes are forced in, and then tossed out years later. Why are you suggesting that Tom Z and Vincent purposely placed a certain jump where the broadcast crew and tv audience could see it. What do you even mean by that? When Vincent trained his programs for this season, I doubt he and Tom/Tammy knew where the broadcast crew was going to be set up in the SA arena. And I have no idea what you are talking about re tv audience, which can only see what the the tv cameras make available, which are not always great views.

Tom Z is not perfect but he's a good coach. The whole sport is political, so I don't know why you are acting as if Tom Z invented the whole politiking phenomenon. Please give me a good coach who knows how to politik and how to back me up and to advocate for fair judging. Some people are acting as if the ISU is so squeaky clean and benevolent and fair and responsible. That's a laugh. The ISU has way too much power and no accountability. And there are too many officials running the ISU who have speed skating backgrounds and understand little about the sport of figure skating. That's the genesis of many of the problems crippling figure skating.

You go Tom Z!!! Advocate for your skaters and for fairness in the sport of figure skating. The whole issue of URs has been an accident waiting to happen for years. Fasten your seatbelts people, this is going to be one bumpy ride of a hellish season.

 

[aftershocks]

He did have a surgery early in the 2013-4 season but he reportedly wasn't skating at all the season after that. Like he quitted and came back.

Please don't make assumptions. I don't personally know all the details, but I do recall that Vincent was injured. You don't have any evidence that he 'quit.' It could have taken that long for him to rehabilitate. After surgery it may not have been a given that he was considered healthy enough to make it back, and certainly not on a dime.

 

[jlai]

Please don't make assumptions. I don't personally know all the details, but I do recall that Vincent was injured. You don't have any evidence that he 'quit.' It could have taken that long for him to rehabilitate. After surgery it may not have been a given that he was considered healthy enough to make it back, and certainly not on a dime.

And you have no evidence of your version. There is nothing positive or negative about your version or mine -- him being injured the whole time or him having stopped skating at one point. It is not as if one version makes him look better

Fact remains is that he lost time. Does it matter why? Or are you going on ten more posts about it?

 

[aftershocks]

And you have no evidence of your version. There is nothing positive or negative about your version or mine -- him being injured the whole time or him having stopped skating at one point. It is not as if one version makes him look better

Fact remains is that he lost time. Does it matter why? Or are you going on ten more posts about it?

Yeah, a skater has surgery for an injury and doesn't come back to compete right away, and you randomly speculate that he decided to 'quit,' even as you blame him for losing competition time. It's your choice to go on for post after post trying to inanely defend your wrongheaded speculation. Cheers!

I remembered reading about Vincent having suffered injuries and then battling to come back. I'd read about this in an old IceNetwork article by Sarah Brannen, which isn't accessible since the site is now defunct. Here's Wiki's 'version' of what transpired early in Vincent's career:

"Vincent Zhou won three national titles at different levels in three consecutive years:

• 2011 U.S. intermediate champion (youngest U.S. intermediate champion)
• 2012 U.S. novice champion
• 2013 U.S. junior champion (youngest U.S. junior champion)

Zhou intended to skate at the senior level in the 2013-2014 season, but missed the season due to an injury. He was also forced to sit out the entire 2014-15 season because of a torn lateral meniscus in his right knee and a discoid meniscus. Zhou underwent surgery at the UCSF Orthepedic Institute in San Francisco to get his injuries treated. In the spring of 2015, Zhou began training at the Broadmoor Skating Club in Colorado Springs, Colorado with Tom Zakrajsek and Becky Calvin as his new coaches..."

 

[gkelly]

why are you placing jumps where only the television audience and broadcast crew can see whether or not it’s fully rotated?

A couple of thoughts:

Ideally, jumps should be placed in all different parts of the rink. In that case, inevitably the tech panel will have a clearer view of some of the jumps and not-so-good view of the others, and ditto for the broadcasters. Depending where the broadcast booths or broadcast cameras are located they may or may not be the same jumps.

The judges will also have a different live view than the tech panel. But I think they have access to the same video replay if they need to review an element.

Is the tech panel always on the same side of the officials panel, or are they sometimes on the left with judges on the right and sometimes on the right with judges on the left? If it varies, then no matter where the skaters/coaches/choreographers place the jumps, different panels will have better views of different jumps depending which side they're seated on. Also, is the location of the video replay camera always in the same relation to the ice surface or does it vary somewhat from one rink setup to the next?

If a skater has one jump that they know is prone to rotation or edge calls, they can strategically put that jump in a position where the tech panel won't have the clearest view in hopes that in the case of likely doubt they will receive the benefit thereof. But if underrotations are not unlikely on any given jumping pass, they can't put all seven jumping passes in strategically obscured positions.

Or if they did, the program layout would likely look lopsided enough to affect the Composition component negatively as well as alerting the tech panel and the judges that there might be something to hide about those jumps.

 

[mag]

The focus should be on benefiting the skaters, and figuring out what the heck constitutes a UR in real time, vs slo-mo time. Added to the fact the ISU changed the 1/4 rule, and they didn't exactly adhere to it before anyway, because there's no way to measure 1/4 exactly like they measure downs in football.

The focus should be on fairness to Skaters who do complete the entire rotation of the jump in the air. It should not be to give Skaters who do not finish the rotation in the air points they have not earned. That is not fair and completely goes against everything athletes vow to uphold.

It is very clear, especially in slow motion (which, by the way doesn’t change the jump it just slow the replay down) when a jump is a quarter or more cheated. When it is not clear the benefit of the doubt should be given to the skater. Once again, the key here is just because you cannot see the cheats does not mean they are not there. If you want to learn to spot cheated jumps spend a few hundred hours watching Skaters learn the jumps. It will become quite clear.

I do agree that the ISU should be using technology more and that a computer should be measuring the rotation of each every jump and making the call. I do not think this would make you or Tom Z happy.

 

[mag]

Here are close ups from the 1080p YouTube source.

Take off position (for reference):
https://i.imgur.com/rUsUYiX.jpg

Frame 1
Frame 2
Frame 3
Frame 4 <-- Toepick touches.
Frame 5
Frame 6
Frame 7

I would say that Frame 4 shows the toe-pick hitting the ice at the 3/4 mark of the rotation (I recommend opening all 7 frames in tabs and ctrl-tabbing through them for your own make-shift frame-by-frame playback, or you can just click here for an animated gif from giphy).

Vincent’s ankle bends when he is a quarter short. That is how you can tell the toepick is on the ice. There is no way he suddenly lifted his toe by bending his ankle up a quarter of a turn before he landed. First off there is no reason to do that, second off he would have taken a terrible fall on the landing.

 

[aftershocks]

I do not think this would make you or Tom Z happy.

Yep it's really necessary for you to be so nastily dismissive about an issue that is not easily resolvable and that the ISU has fumbled for years. Kudos for you if you think lumping me with Tom Z credits you with some kind of brownie points. Obviously, something needs to be done to ensure fairness for all the skaters. That's really the point, and that's what I have argued. I'm also aware of, and I have no intention of sugarcoating, the realities of the sport's ingrained politics which is endemic, and which everyone has become used to living with and condoning in one way or another. Skaters and coaches know they have to learn how to deal with the politics and the rules (however sketchy and unfair) that exist. The scoring system has never been fair to begin with, so the current shite is not surprising.

And I still applaud Tom Z for speaking out in a thoughtful way. The ISU gets away with being unaccountable for their mistakes and misbegotten lack of leadership. It behooves someone to speak out sometimes, and stop with the status quo pandering.

Posters can continue taking sides, cross-talking and taking jabs at Tom Z, Vincent, Tara, Johnny, aftershocks, and whoever else. Counterproductivity is the name of the game in figure skating. What else is new(s)?

 

[misskarne]

But the UR calls were freakin' excessive!

No, they weren't.

Yes, they had URs, but not all the jumps called URs were clear URs.

Yes, they were.

I'm interested in what benefits the skaters and what can be done to restore the authentic viability of this damnably run sport.

What benefits the skaters is to make sure the jumps are done correctly and incorrect technique is punished.

Tom Z. is not alone in believing that the jump was clean.

And the tech panel weren't alone in believing the jump was under.

But not every jump called against Vincent was a clear UR.

Yes, it was. Clear in real time, too.

The judges are riding Vincent hard, and the problem is that he has become a convenient target.

No, they're not, and if he's a "convenient" target, then he and his team have made themselves so by not correcting a very obvious problem that the tech panels have been "warning" him about for at least 18 months.

Yes, they clearly URed some jumps, but NOT all of the jumps that were called against them.

Yes, they did.

But it's quite clear, no matter the ISU-enabling by some fans, that the judging at SA was overly harsh against Bradie and Vincent, period.

No, it's not clear at all, because they weren't.

He pointed out that had the call been different - which he believed it should have been and provided evidence to support his claim - the outcome would have been different, but he said he respected the results and he congratulated the medalists.

Yes, and had Vincent not taken 33 seconds to get to position instead of 30 in the SP, the outcome would have been different too. What's his excuse for that one?

Again, I am not a Tom Z. fan, but I think his point was fair and was not presented as just whining because he thought his student should have been on the podium.

I disagree. The whole "judges make mistakes, this call is blatantly wrong, the tech panel isn't equipped to make these calls, and my skater missed the podium by 0.63!" was very much whining that Vincent should have been on the podium.

The biggest problem IMO is that the rule is unclear,

Well, actually, it's not. Quarter short is UR. Half short is <<. Easy.

The judges will also have a different live view than the tech panel. But I think they have access to the same video replay if they need to review an element.

The judges have the same video, but not the same replay ability. They can replay in normal speed only, where the TP can replay in slo mo, super slo-mo, frame by frame, and reverse.

Is the tech panel always on the same side of the officials panel, or are they sometimes on the left with judges on the right and sometimes on the right with judges on the left? If it varies, then no matter where the skaters/coaches/choreographers place the jumps, different panels will have better views of different jumps depending which side they're seated on. Also, is the location of the video replay camera always in the same relation to the ice surface or does it vary somewhat from one rink setup to the next?

It varies (though when the judges and TP are in a "straight line" configuration the TP tends to be on the right for some reason. just my experience). At some comps - and I believe all ISU comps - the tech panel is above the judging panel. Much better angle like that. The position of the camera does tend to vary depending on the rink setup.


Admittedly, there is an additional thing irking me, beyond my dislike of URs and the constant refrain that we should somehow forgive URs for certain skaters.

Where was Tom Z's passion for making UR calling accurate when another student of his had a National title stolen from him because the panel didn't call another skater's URs properly?

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think they should have multiple cameras because of the way skaters deliberately place some elements so that the panel has an obscured view of the element. The most blatant is the Pairs twist: I think every one at Skate America was done in the same place in the rink, almost in the corner to the judges' right, with the man's back to the judges, which was the same sight issue I had from where I was sitting, and while farther away, I had a slightly better angle. It obscures the catch. When I was watching practices in the section close to where the twists were done, it was like bumper car central. Another is the so-called "lutz corner," and I've seen Pairs dismount from lifts on both short ends, where the man obscures the set-down.

 

[toddlj]

I used to come to this thread to read positive, supportive, constructive posts about US men in 2018.

 

[BittyBug]

Yes, and had Vincent not taken 33 seconds to get to position instead of 30 in the SP, the outcome would have been different too. What's his excuse for that one?

You are really missing the point. Tom Z is not making any excuses, despite your tirade. He pointed out that bad calls can make a difference. That there are other factors that can influence the outcome of a competition are completely irrelevant.

Simply: do you believe that the sport would benefit from better technology for under rotations? Yes or no.

Where was Tom Z's passion for making UR calling accurate when another student of his had a National title stolen from him because the panel didn't call another skater's URs properly?

I have no idea who you are talking about but really, two wrongs don't make a right. All this whataboutism is really tired and does nothing to support your position.

 

[Carolla5501]

I used to come to this thread to read positive, supportive, constructive posts about US men in 2018.

But now we have "experts" (who know nothing) trying to convince other "experts" (who know nothing) that THEY are right over and over and over again LOL!

And of course it never works!

 

[toddlj]

But now we have "experts" (who know nothing) trying to convince other "experts" (who know nothing) that THEY are right over and over and over again LOL!

And of course it never works!

Yep. And in the end no one person's opinion is any more valid than another's.

So let's change the subject! I hope Jason Brown is able to lock in his jumps this week and start strong. I'm looking forward to seeing him!

 

[Tavi]

A couple of thoughts:

Ideally, jumps should be placed in all different parts of the rink. In that case, inevitably the tech panel will have a clearer view of some of the jumps and not-so-good view of the others, and ditto for the broadcasters. Depending where the broadcast booths or broadcast cameras are located they may or may not be the same jumps.

The judges will also have a different live view than the tech panel. But I think they have access to the same video replay if they need to review an element.

Is the tech panel always on the same side of the officials panel, or are they sometimes on the left with judges on the right and sometimes on the right with judges on the left? If it varies, then no matter where the skaters/coaches/choreographers place the jumps, different panels will have better views of different jumps depending which side they're seated on. Also, is the location of the video replay camera always in the same relation to the ice surface or does it vary somewhat from one rink setup to the next?

If a skater has one jump that they know is prone to rotation or edge calls, they can strategically put that jump in a position where the tech panel won't have the clearest view in hopes that in the case of likely doubt they will receive the benefit thereof. But if underrotations are not unlikely on any given jumping pass, they can't put all seven jumping passes in strategically obscured positions.

Or if they did, the program layout would likely look lopsided enough to affect the Composition component negatively as well as alerting the tech panel and the judges that there might be something to hide about those jumps.

I don’t know for sure, but I think the location of the tech panel and camera varies somewhat. I assume that would be known at latest at the first official practice, which would allow time to tweak placement of jumps, though not to make huge changes. I think it’s fairly common for skaters to adjust their program from NHL to Olympic sized rinks, so some last minute tweaks must be feasible, even if not ideal.

Your point about strategically placing jumps that are prone to underotation or edge calls - in such a way that the tech panel doesn’t have the clearest view - is sort of the opposite side of what I was talking about. I have heard that this is frequently done. I don’t know whether Vincent’s programs are designed to do that for any of his jumps, although I have heard Tom Z described as a very strategic coach. But logically speaking, if you think a jump is reliable and is wrongly prone to underotation calls, you would do the opposite of hiding it - you would place it where the judges are likely to have the clearest view of the edge or rotation.

I agree it wouldn’t be practical to put all your jumps in the same place, and that it would be hard and probably counter productive to make substantial changes at an official practice. And I agree with @mag and others that more cameras would be better.

What I come back to with this particular situation is that Johnny and Tara (not to mention people on Twitter & boards like this one) frequently think jumps are wrongly called, but this is the first time I recall anyone publicly making a stink about it. Jason’s < call on the 4T at 2016 Skate America comes to mind - Johnny, Tara, Jackie Wong and others disagreed with it and said they would have given it to him, but that was as far as it went. In this case, several people went so far as to call out the tech panel on its “mistakes,” however politely, and to present the skater as a victim. That seems like an attempt to influence future judging of this particular skater, and I really don’t like it. JMO.

 

[missing]

I don’t know for sure, but I think the location of the tech panel and camera varies somewhat. I assume that would be known at latest at the first official practice, which would allow time to tweak placement of jumps, though not to make huge changes. I think it’s fairly common for skaters to adjust their program from NHL to Olympic sized rinks, so some last minute tweaks must be feasible, even if not ideal.

Your point about strategically placing jumps that are prone to underotation or edge calls - in such a way that the tech panel doesn’t have the clearest view - is sort of the opposite side of what I was talking about. I have heard that this is frequently done. I don’t know whether Vincent’s programs are designed to do that for any of his jumps, although I have heard Tom Z described as a very strategic coach. But logically speaking, if you think a jump is reliable and is wrongly prone to underotation calls, you would do the opposite of hiding it - you would place it where the judges are likely to have the clearest view of the edge or rotation.

I agree it wouldn’t be practical to put all your jumps in the same place, and that it would be hard and probably counter productive to make substantial changes at an official practice. And I agree with @mag and others that more cameras would be better.

What I come back to with this particular situation is that Johnny and Tara (not to mention people on Twitter & boards like this one) frequently think jumps are wrongly called, but this is the first time I recall anyone publicly making a stink about it. Jason’s < call on the 4T at 2016 Skate America comes to mind - Johnny, Tara, Jackie Wong and others disagreed with it and said they would have given it to him, but that was as far as it went. In this case, several people went so far as to call out the tech panel on its “mistakes,” however politely, and to present the skater as a victim. That seems like an attempt to influence future judging of this particular skater, and I really don’t like it. JMO.

Johnny and Tara made "a stink" about Jason's triple axel being ratified at Nationals 2018. They were startlingly vehement about it. So complaints can go both ways- the skater is a martyr or the skater was unfairly gifted.

I have no idea how much influence TV commentators have on tech panels and judges, but they probably have influence over TV audiences, and since without TV and audiences figure skating would hardly exist as a sport, that's something to be reckoned with.

 

[toddlj]

Yay! I changed the subject to Jason!