U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[Vagabond]

Tom Zakrajsek wrote a detailed post about Vincent's jumps at Skate America. He calls for the ISU to have better video equipment: https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/323866178417034/

If you heard the NBC commentary by two-time Olympian and World Medalist Johnny Weir and World and Olympic Champion Tara Lipinski it becomes clear the International Skating Union needs higher quality equipment and at least one other camera angle for the technical panel to do its job more accurately.

An additional camera angle would catch all those underrotations that can be detected from the second angle but not from the first.

 

[wickedwitch]

I don't disagree that extra video angles would be useful, but I'm not sure Zhou's camp is really helping his case here by belaboring the issue.

 

[Tahuu]

Tom Zakrajsek wrote a detailed post about Vincent's jumps at Skate America. He calls for the ISU to have better video equipment: https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/323866178417034/

But the video shows from the moment Vincent’s toppick leaves the ice forward with his back facing the camera (~180 deg prerotation) to the moment his toppick touches the ice sideway still with his back facing the camera (~120 deg under rotation), he has ~3.25 rotations in the air.

 

[Colonel Green]

Tom Zakrajsek wrote a detailed post about Vincent's jumps at Skate America. He calls for the ISU to have better video equipment: https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/323866178417034/

It’s becoming more and more likely that Vincent’s coaches actually don’t think he has a problem, in which case, he is never going to improve.

 

[VGThuy]

But isn’t Tom a jump coach? The reason why I ask is that it’d be more effective for him to just quietly work on Vincent’s jumps.

 

[toddlj]

Funny how different people read the same text differently. Tom's statement seems very thoughtful and even handed to me, admitting that Vincent has a lot to work on and not denying the rotation calls on the other jumps, merely advocating for a more scientific approach.

 

[VGThuy]

Funny how different people read the same text differently. Tom's statement seems very thoughtful and even handed to me, admitting that Vincent has a lot to work on and not denying the rotation calls on the other jumps, merely advocating for a more scientific approach.

I agree, but people will read it the wrong way and may take it out on Vincent. I don't mean judges or anything. Just people online.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Actually surprised skating coaches don't challenge calls. The judges are earnest but they are volunteers. Their pay is their travel expenses. Particularly this year with scoring changes there will be a lot of mistakes.

 

[Debbie S]

Actually surprised skating coaches don't challenge calls. The judges are earnest but they are volunteers. Their pay is their travel expenses. Particularly this year with scoring changes there will be a lot of mistakes.

Challenges to UR calls are not allowed. Along with levels and GOE, they are considered field of play decisions and are final. In real time, the tech controller can overrule the tech specialist, but that is done during the initial review before scores are announced.

The only situation where a coach protest is allowed is when an element is misidentified...for example, a salchow is called a toe loop or a triple jump is called a double. The panel can go back and look at the video to determine if the element was called correctly. If not, the call and score are changed accordingly.

 

[jiejie]

Funny how different people read the same text differently. Tom's statement seems very thoughtful and even handed to me, admitting that Vincent has a lot to work on and not denying the rotation calls on the other jumps, merely advocating for a more scientific approach.

I also agree with you that Tom Z's statement was very even-handed. The ISU needs to get out of the 20th century and enter the 21st. There is simply no reason not to have multiple cameras and slow-motion replay available to the tech panel. It's not rocket science. When so much is on the line at major competitions, the Tech Panel needs to get things right. This issue goes way beyond Vincent or any one skater.

 

[toddlj]

I don't disagree that extra video angles would be useful, but I'm not sure Zhou's camp is really helping his case here by belaboring the issue.

It's a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation. Not sure shutting his mouth and supporting the status quo is helpful either.

 

[Vagabond]

It's a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation. Not sure shutting his mouth and supporting the status quo is helpful either.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

 

[toddlj]

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

I do like this quote but there have been many times in my life when speaking out was absolutely the right choice.

 

[mag]

I also agree with you that Tom Z's statement was very even-handed. The ISU needs to get out of the 20th century and enter the 21st. There is simply no reason not to have multiple cameras and slow-motion replay available to the tech panel. It's not rocket science. When so much is on the line at major competitions, the Tech Panel needs to get things right. This issue goes way beyond Vincent or any one skater.

This sounds like a great idea. What will happen though is more under rotation and downgrade calls. The thing to remember is not seeing a cheat does not mean it is not there. It just means you didn’t see it. If someone sees a cheat it is there whether or not other people can see it. I am, of course, assuming that there isn’t blatant lying going on which I don’t think there is. I think there are varying skill levels which is why some panels see more than others.

More camera angles will lead to more calls which I think would be great. I am not sure that is really what Tom Z wants.

 

[missing]

If multiple cameras showing multiple angles could work as swiftly and publicly as line calls in tennis, then I'd be in favor. But if multiple cameras showing multiple angles work as they do in baseball, then I think the delay between skate and score would be a bad idea. And if more than one jump is being reevaluated, it could slow things down intolerably.

 

[Erin]

Zhou would have had a medal (and probably silver) here, simply by adjusting the jump layout, as @Willin points out.

Huge tactical error by the coaching team, IMO. Particularly after how all the jumps were judged by the newly Scott Davis in the SP, there’s no way he should have been attempting 4 quads in the LP. Stick with the 4lutzes, which seems to be his best quad, and do triples everywhere else.

I remember thinking Scott Davis was pretty tough last year at Skate Canada, so his evilness has been around for at least a year. Maybe he is starting to be a tough caller.

 

[aftershocks]

Considering where he was only a few weeks ago at the Japan Open, this was a huge step up.

Also considering that Nathan was recovering from a cold and possibly jet lag at the Japan Open. And, Japan Open is neither here nor there in terms of major competition buzz.

 

[aftershocks]

It's hard to tell, especially because NBC's slow motion replay wasn't really slow motion; however, going frame by frame shows this:

https://i.imgur.com/rfyOOnq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jOibOHF.jpg

The TS made the right call.

Really? Just from these two images? I can't even tell what I'm looking at here. I don't see any actual movement which is crucial. As well as seeing it from the best angle, which is always iffy for the judges.

This is a tricky business. A quad jump in real time can seem landed and fine at one angle. And then with slo-mo at a different angle, the slightest of bites and turn of the blade can be detected. And this would happen if they reviewed every single jump by every single skater.

 

[aftershocks]

I totally respect Tom Z speaking out in a thoughtful and respectful manner in support of his skater, and in support of the sport working harder to get these calls right, or go back to the drawing board completely. ISU is putting too much damn pressure on skaters to be squeaky clean perfect IMO. This, when the judges themselves can be all kinds of a*hole wrong and off-base in their scoring, especially on PCS, but it don't matter.

In the posted video, is it the quad flip or the quad lutz Tom Z is examining? I thought the quad flip was under-rotated, and the quad-lutz was not. Or maybe I'm mixing up the sp with the fp.

 

[misskarne]

Tom Zakrajsek wrote a detailed post about Vincent's jumps at Skate America. He calls for the ISU to have better video equipment: https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/323866178417034/

What, so they can call even more of Zhou's jumps UR?

I'm thoroughly disappointed in the written spiel (will watch the video tonight). It doesn't give me much hope for the problem being fixed.

 

[Tavi]

What, so they can call even more of Zhou's jumps UR?

I'm thoroughly disappointed in the written spiel (will watch the video tonight). It doesn't give me much hope for the problem being fixed.

That whole post can be boiled down to: call my skater’s jumps fully rotated even if they’re not.

 

[el henry]

I understand Tom Z. is standing up for his skater. I understand he thinks he put the necessary nice words in. But his strategy is incomprehensible to me

I can just see me saying to a judge “I know you ruled against me and you told me why you ruled against me. But we’re all human and we all make mistakes and if you will just look at the case one more time, this time with your glasses on, I’m sure you, and your fellow judges, will understand, with all due respect and reverence, why I am right”

Tom, your post should have been “We are disappointed. While we think there were some close calls, we will go back to training and redouble our efforts so that there is no doubt next time Vincent skates, he will rotate so that everyone can see”.

This Facebook post is not going to win judges and influence tech callers.

 

[starrynight]

Remember how at the 2017 Europeans the short dance score was revised for Cappellini/Lanotte after the judges went back to their hotels and watched the program on YouTube? The judges got back together watched the TV videos, revised the score and knocked C/L down to second. C/L had to return their small medals.

So there is certainly a precedent. I think this was in direct response to a complaint (can't remember who by). I remember at the time thinking it was shady as all hell.

 

[her grace]

Taking the Polina Edmunds approach of “I have no underrotations” doesn’t work well in the long run. But Evan Lysacek’s “the problem is the camera angle [so I’ll change my jump placement to hide my underrotations where the caller can’t see them]” worked great. More camera angles isn’t going to help chronic underrotaters.

 

[aftershocks]

This Facebook post is not going to win judges and influence tech callers.

I agree that the post with the video is not helping to prove a case against the calls. But I don't see how people are trying to completely hold up the ISU and the judges here. The focus should be on benefiting the skaters, and figuring out what the heck constitutes a UR in real time, vs slo-mo time. Added to the fact the ISU changed the 1/4 rule, and they didn't exactly adhere to it before anyway, because there's no way to measure 1/4 exactly like they measure downs in football. Close calls should NOT go against the skaters. And once they latch onto reviewing certain skaters, they call URs against landings that are too close to call, or that aren't being seen at a clear enough angle and that looked fine in real time. It doesn't make sense to examine some skaters with a microscope and turn a blind eye to even checking the jumps of politically favored skaters, which HAS HAPPENED! And boy, go back in history and strip some people of their Olympic gold medals, cuz many of their jumps were def URed!

Figure skating judging and ISU are just so hidebound unto themselves with their asinine changing of rules and not listening to the concerns of coaches and skaters down through the years. But then when some scandal happens at the Olympics, they come in with hammers trying to enforce rules that don't make sense. And then arbitrarily changing those rules and fiddle-faddlng with freakin' IJS/ COP because it was never a full-fledged, complete and tested system before they rammed it into use in the first place. The ISU is more interested in protecting the judges, than in doing anything that hints of being beneficial for skaters. Let us please NOT lose sight of all the conflicted agendas happening here, figure skating fans! Agendas that have been in conflict down through the ages of this confounding, frustrating, antiquated and asininely run sport.

More power to Tom Z! I don't care if you think he went about it the wrong way. At least he has the balls and the courage to speak out! And I'm not even a huge fan of Vincent's. But the UR calls were freakin' excessive! The same goes for what happened to Bradie in the ladies event! Yes, the coaches and skaters need to go home and work on this, but they also need to compose themselves and ask the right questions regarding the fact that judges should NOT be making calls against skaters that are too close when they don't have a good viewing angle and the ISU is too damn cheap to even figure out how to raise money or generate revenue to take care of important things like having enough cameras to make the right calls. IMHO, the whole situation is unfair chiefly because they pick on certain skaters. Yes, they had URs, but not all the jumps called URs were clear URs. But when they start reviewing, they begin going to town. Honestly, if they were to review the jump landings of everyone in the event, which they did not do, they'd come up with a number of additional close landings similar to the landings that were called UR against Vincent and Bradie.

It never fails that some fans run to fall behind propping up the status quo. I'm interested in what benefits the skaters and what can be done to restore the authentic viability of this damnably run sport.

 

[Willin]

I’ve always seen Tom Z as something of an arrogant, pretentious jerk and this is doing nothing to help that.

People on this forum have been discussing Raf’s tendency to blame everybody but himself. Tom Z is exactly the same, except unlike Raf he won’t blame the skater themselves. While it’s better from a “don’t bite the hand that feeds you” angle, it’s much worse if you’re trying to improve score-wise. Even if Raf can come off like a jerk because he might blame the skater, he will at least acknowledge it’s a problem with their skating, not the judges. Tom Z seems to be unable to acknowledge some inherent problems his skaters have. Raf is also better at recognizing flaws and hiding them or otherwise downplaying them. Tom Z just seems to ignore flaws in favor of “but he can do a quad” and “it’s not a flaw so it doesn’t need to be hidden”.

Remember how at the 2017 Europeans the short dance score was revised for Cappellini/Lanotte after the judges went back to their hotels and watched the program on YouTube? The judges got back together watched the TV videos, revised the score and knocked C/L down to second. C/L had to return their small medals.

So there is certainly a precedent. I think this was in direct response to a complaint (can't remember who by). I remember at the time thinking it was shady as all hell.

That does sound sketchy as heck.

The announced scores are unofficial so they can be changed after the event, but I think there should be a time limit (ie. Scores must be finalized before the judges leave the arena after that segment of competition). Challenges should also have a short time limit to ensure they can happen in a regulated competition arena environment instead of via YouTube or at the hotel. Maybe all challenges to technical calls or GOE that would affect the standings must be submitted within 30 minutes of the events end or something like that.

Taking the Polina Edmunds approach of “I have no underrotations” doesn’t work well in the long run. But Evan Lysacek’s “the problem is the camera angle [so I’ll change my jump placement to hide my underrotations where the caller can’t see them]” worked great. More camera angles isn’t going to help chronic underrotaters.

ITA. If you see a problem and know the ISU is unlikely to fix it any time soon due to being stuck in the past, take advantage of that problem. If anything having one camera benefits Vincent: as other users have pointed out more cameras means less of an ability to hide URs.

 

[BittyBug]

I have a visceral disdain for Tom Z. but I have no issue with his post. Part of his job as a coach is to advocate for his student. And while some of you are so absolutely certain that the jump in question was clearly under rotated, or have supreme confidence in the tech panel to have seen it as such, Tom Z. is not alone in believing that the jump was clean. He provided video evidence to back it up and cited numerous other experts (like them or not, Tara and Johnny have a very good eye for under rotations) who also believed the jump to have been fully rotated.

Other sports have camera from multiple angles and cameras that operate at much higher speeds. Why not figure skating? Saying that won't help Zhou is really irrelevant - either you believe adding more and better cameras would result in better calls or you don't. And suggesting that Tom Z. just stay silent and instead try to exploit the current system by rearranging the layout of Zhou's jumps is an insult to the integrity of the sport.

Tom Z. didn't say that Zhou never under rotates or that none of his jumps at this competition were under rotated. He cited the quad flip and only the quad flip.

Again, I would usually be the last person to defend Tom Z. but I really don't see anything unreasonable in his post.

 

[aftershocks]

Some fans here are mischaracterizing Tom Z's post. He chose his words carefully and he thoughtfully spoke to not only the officials, but to fans in the skating community. I think some FSUers dislike for Tom Z (and/or Vincent) is coloring how they are viewing Tom's Facebook post. It's courageous of Tom Z to speak out IMO. And he explains very clearly why he's speaking out. He probably wouldn't have except for the fact that the stakes are very high with the untested and arbitrary new scoring rules in place this season. Vincent was essentially being examined under a microscope and made a poster-boy for these new scoring rules. He had URs, yes. But not every jump called against Vincent was a clear UR.

The judges are riding Vincent hard, and the problem is that he has become a convenient target. Tom Z is right to push back and to question the ISU's lackadaisacal approach to rule changes and Jump landing reviews. When calls have previously been questioned, the official response has been that the judges are viewing from one camera angle. That is a lame and insulting excuse for questionable calls that have been too close to call against skaters. The ISU's additional reaction has been to protect the judges further by instituting new rules changes regarding the 1/4 landing position. The new rule clearly protects and benefits judges to give them more margin in arbitrary decisionmaking. The rule is a further backhand swipe against skaters.

While I'm not clear on all the technical details of what Tom Z is saying because the rules for what constitutes URs are rather sketchy, I do understand that Tom is making some crucial points:

1. The 1/4 rule change is an exacting and strict measure in a sport that routinely involves judging that is not always accurate and evenhanded across the board

2. There's a lack of sufficient, state-of-the-art equipment to make accurate judgment calls; and there's a difference in the strictness vs leniency of technical panels across events

3. Tom Z and team are working with Vincent on addressing the problems they know exist in his skating, and he's made progress, which Tom is proud to see reflected in Vincent being the only man in the sp at SA to receive level 4s on every leveled element

4. Ideas have been put forth for years to correct the unfairness in judging URs, and the ISU Council needs to take action because the current situation can be detrimental to skaters' careers

Targets have essentially been placed on the backs of Vincent and Bradie. Yes, they clearly URed some jumps, but NOT all of the jumps that were called against them. The very fact of doing reviews of every jump lends itself to going overboard on making calls on jumps that are too close to call. And it's impacting these skaters unfairly when if other skaters are as closely examined, you will also find similar close landings. The 1/4 rule is problematic because as we know from other sports, trying to make judgment calls with the naked eye is a faulty enterprise. If the ISU is going to be this strict and exacting, they need to invest in state-of-the-art equipment. And they also need to review the rules governing URs. They are on a slippery slope with this new rule coupled with the double whammy of GOE point ranges. There is surely going to end up being controversies in the judging throughout this season.

Also, once skaters start getting singled out, panels have a tendency to over-scrutinize those skaters, and ignore other skaters whose landings are also suspect but never reviewed. It's a fact that Mirai Nagasu often received egregiously inaccurate UR calls, simply because she was often reviewed, and the judges went to town makiing calls against her that were not clear URs. Bradie has been known for clean jumps, so all of a sudden at 2018 Worlds they examined her jumps and lowered her score, which to me is suspicious in that it allowed them to keep her down in the placements, when she actually skated better than many skaters placed ahead of her. And there's no question that Mirai Nagasu was unfairly dumped on at Worlds.

For Bradie and Vincent, I hope they are able to put this into perspective, and not allow themselves to be brought down. Yes, I agree that Vincent should pull back and limit his quads in the sp to one, and in the fp to three and be extra careful in performing quads that he's the most comfortable with ensuring he's got the full rotations. For Bradie, I'm not sure if the recent UR problem on some of her jumps is related to nerves or to the newness of some of the jumps she has in repertoire. She needs to figure that out the best she can, and not back down against the OTT scrutinizing and unfairness on close calls. Hopefully this experience will push Bradie to grit it out and reach new heights. But it's quite clear, no matter the ISU-enabling by some fans, that the judging at SA was overly harsh against Bradie and Vincent, period.

 

[Tavi]

I have a visceral disdain for Tom Z. but I have no issue with his post. Part of his job as a coach is to advocate for his student. And while some of you are so absolutely certain that the jump in question was clearly under rotated, or have supreme confidence in the tech panel to have seen it as such, Tom Z. is not alone in believing that the jump was clean. He provided video evidence to back it up and cited numerous other experts (like them or not, Tara and Johnny have a very good eye for under rotations) who also believed the jump to have been fully rotated.

Other sports have camera from multiple angles and cameras that operate at much higher speeds. Why not figure skating? Saying that won't help Zhou is really irrelevant - either you believe adding more and better cameras would result in better calls or you don't. And suggesting that Tom Z. just stay silent and instead try to exploit the current system by rearranging the layout of Zhou's jumps is an insult to the integrity of the sport.

Tom Z. didn't say that Zhou never under rotates or that none of his jumps at this competition were under rotated. He cited the quad flip and only the quad flip.

Again, I would usually be the last person to defend Tom Z. but I really don't see anything unreasonable in his post.

Hmm. I do. 7 guys were called for < in the FS, not just Vincent. That includes Sergei Voronov and Matteo Rizzo, both of whom placed ahead of him. Voronov medaled. Tom Z wants that medal for Vincent so he has better funding and a shot at the GPF.

If you review Vincent, call his 4F clean, and give him the bronze over Voronov -just because he has Tom Z, Tara, Johnny, Michael Weiss, Mirai, and Jeff Buttle lobbying for him - is that fair? At the competition, every skater at the men’s FS was judged by the same tech panel under the same conditions. To do a partial review under different conditions is completely unfair in my view, and I’m appalled that Tom Z would even suggest it.

And you know if he gets it through once, he’s going to try it again, because this is a chronic problem. Not to pile on Vincent, but he’s been called for < jumps in 14 of his last 17 free skates, and 9 of his last 17 short programs. He’s averaged about 3< per comp since 2015 - 2+ in the FS and about .6 in the SP. While that has nothing to do with the 4F at issue here, it does suggest that there’s a real problem. He seems like a sweet and talented kid, but IMO he would be better served by a coach working to fix the problems rather than politicking.

 

[jiejie]

If multiple cameras showing multiple angles could work as swiftly and publicly as line calls in tennis, then I'd be in favor. But if multiple cameras showing multiple angles work as they do in baseball, then I think the delay between skate and score would be a bad idea. And if more than one jump is being reevaluated, it could slow things down intolerably.

Intolerable? For who? Tech Panel? Judges? Spectators? Sponsors? When a bad call or so on a jump can make the difference between a medal or not, or significant prize money, it doesn't seem like that much of a price to pay. With the proper camera and replay set-up, I cannot see how this would take much extra time at all. In fact, it might be faster with the evidence on camera for the Panel to quickly look at to remove doubt, vs the time taken to argue amongst themselves whether something was rotated fully or not, or !/e edge or not.

And the camera evidence could be preserved for the ISU to review at post-competition meetings, in case specific Tech Panels seemed to be coming up with strange calls. If you have a numbers-based system like IJS, you need to make sure your numbers are as correct as possible AND have accountability. Otherwise, might as well go back to 6.0.