U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[BittyBug]

There was never any realistic chance that they'd add another alternate if any of their initial selections -- Chen, Rippon, and Zhou -- decided not to go. That isn't how they roll.

I get what your saying but in an Olympic year this seems like it could be a risky strategy. Both Miner and Aaron have indicated that they are not sure whether they will continue, and given the prevalence of injuries, it's not outside the realm of possibility that one or more of Chen, Zhou or Brown may be physically unable to compete, so shouldn't they at least have an additional alternate who is ready to go?

 

[Sylvia]

I believe the selection committee has to formally nominate/approve any new alternates to ISU Championships and it's possible there wasn't time to do so after Rippon informed USFS that he would not be going to Milan Worlds.

 

[Debbie S]

Only Ryan Dunk is listed as an alternate on the ISU website/list -- he was the only one not originally assigned as a competitor or alternate who attended the Junior Worlds camp in late January and so I assume that was the criterion to be listed as a JW alternate: https://www.instagram.com/p/BeoRhSvFK3E/?hl=en&taken-by=usfigureskating

I don't know who of the original alternates attended the camp but I heard USFS conducted a simulated competition between the skaters (i.e. skating their SP and FS) so they could rank the alternates. I would assume based on the entries/alternates list that Ryan ranked first after that process, but I don't know any details.

 

[Vagabond]

I get what your saying but in an Olympic year this seems like it could be a risky strategy. Both Miner and Aaron have indicated that they are not sure whether they will continue, and given the prevalence of injuries, it's not outside the realm of possibility that one or more of Chen, Zhou or Brown may be physically unable to compete, so shouldn't they at least have an additional alternate who is ready to go?

I suspect that they didn't want to send anyone who was likely to finish lower than Keegan Messing.

ETA: There are also the issues of helping pay for the training expenses of anyone who wasn't originally named as an alternate and dealing with any skaters who stopped training because they weren't originally named as alternates.

 

[gkelly]

ETA: There are also the issues of helping pay for the training expenses of anyone who wasn't originally named as an alternate and dealing with any skaters who stopped training because they weren't originally named as alternates.

Do they help pay for training expenses of anyone who was originally named as an alternate?

 

[Vagabond]

Do they help pay for training expenses of anyone who was originally named as an alternate?

I don't know, although it seems like they should. Chances are that USFSA money is going for that purpose anyhow through the use of team envelopes. If, however, a skater has not been training several weeks because he wasn't an alternate, he will have to do some catchup that an original alternate would not.

 

[Debbie S]

I don't know, although it seems like they should. Chances are that USFSA money is going for that purpose anyhow through the use of team envelopes. If, however, a skater has not been training several weeks because he wasn't an alternate, he will have to do some catchup that an original alternate would not.

Right about the catch-up, but I would think any skater and coach who did not think they were ready for Worlds would not accept the assignment. In any event, it will only be an issue if both Nathan and Vincent withdraw, and there is no indication that's happening. Regarding envelope funding, levels are based on the previous year's accomplishments. Funding levels don't change based on whether a skater gets named to the World team. It may affect their funding next season, depending on where they place at Worlds.

 

[Bellanca]

http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat03108710.htm

Adam is not going to Worlds, Jason takes his place.

I am happy that Jason will get this opportunity which was to be expected. Probably the best call for Adam AND Jason - if he goes. I have not heard otherwise.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

I disagree with you that everything would have worked out between Orser and Adam. There were underlying differences in personality and expectations. It's not a negative slant on either Adam or Orser. I'm sure they both learned and grew from the experience. As far as whether the split was strictly about off-ice training issues, I doubt it. Frankly, it's easy to spin reasons after-the-fact. I don't recall what if anything Adam ever said publicly about that coaching relationship. And it's certainly water under the bridge by now.

It's clearly easy for you to talk about a figure skater 'wasting years jumping from coach to coach.' No experience, not even failure, is ever a waste if something is learned. See my previous post on this topic. Adam was not a frenetic 'coach-swapper.' And that label is too easily lodged against figure skaters, almost as freely as fans braying after every competition that so-and-so needs to leave their coach and go to another coach.

The bottom line for everyone, not just athletes, is to learn from every experience in order to make better choices, and to not stay in a situation that isn't working.

Exactly where in my post did I say that "everything would have worked out between Orser and Adam"? Where did I say that they should have stayed together?

This is exactly what I said:

And remember why he left? Brian wanted Adam to do off-ice training and Adam didn't want to do that. (Phil Hersh wrote an article about their split.)

Then a few years ago Adam apparently finally figured out that, yes, he needed to do off-ice training. Imagine how much more he might have accomplished as a skater if he had listened to Orser instead of wasting years jumping from coach to coach.

I said that they split, per what Phil Hersh reported, over a disagreement about off-ice training. Did other factors play a role? Possibly. Probably. I'm glad Adam did go elsewhere because it opened the door for Javi and Yuzu to train with Brian--partnerships that have resulted in two Olympic Gold medals, one bronze Olympic medal, four world titles, numerous Grand Prix titles, European titles, Nationals titles, etc.

As for Adam wasting years jumping from coach to coach, I stand by that comment. Unfortunately this happens to a lot of skaters and it's never a good thing. Most coaches agree that it takes roughly 1.5 to 2 years for a skater to gel with a coach and that's a lot of years given the relatively short life of a competitive skating career and given Adam's relatively late start as a skater. Adam has admitted to not working especially hard during many of those years, years when he could have been improving his skating and other technical skills. You know, like Javi did.

And had he done that, it's possible he might--note that I said might and not would--have had a more distinguished career. As I've always loved his artistic side, I'm delighted he finally got his act together and was lucky enough to peak at just the right time. I definitely agree with the decision to send him to the Olympics because he's been a great ambassador for USFS.

aftershocks, I have no problem with you disagreeing with my beliefs that off-ice training is a good thing or that moving from coach to coach is not a positive thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But I do have a problem with you ignoring my actual words and attacking me over stuff I've never written. I notice you do this a lot and it makes having rational conversations with you impossible.

 

[Vagabond]

Right about the catch-up, but I would think any skater and coach who did not think they were ready for Worlds would not accept the assignment

But that's the point. If the USFSA names its World alternates in the second week of January, it's bound to be difficult to find other possible alternates (in a hurry, I might add) at the end of February.

If the USFSA wants people like Grant Hochstein (fifth at Nationals, competed at Four Continents) or Timothy Dolensky (seventh at Nationals) to remain available and ready until late February (the entry cutoff date) or even the second half of March (Worlds), it ought to be helping pay for their training.

 

[Debbie S]

If the USFSA wants people like Grant Hochstein (fifth at Nationals, competed at Four Continents) or Timothy Dolensky (seventh at Nationals) to remain available and ready until late February (the entry cutoff date) or even the second half of March (Worlds), it ought to be helping pay for their training.

Skaters train year-round. They receive envelope funding according to a formula. Altering that formula wouldn't be fair to the other skaters. If a skater for any reason hasn't been training, due to vacation, retirement, injury, etc, and aren't prepared for Worlds, then they would turn the assignment down. There have been instances where USFS was unable to fill an alternate spot and just sent 1 less skater. 1998 Worlds ladies comes to mind (Tonia K went after Tara w/d and then when Bobek w/d, Angela N wasn't ready b/c she had been visiting family abroad). In 2014, H/D declined the Worlds invite after D/W withdrew b/c Madison was scheduled for hip surgery. Aldridge/Eaton (5th at Nats) were sent instead.

 

[nimi]

*DEAD HORSE ALERT*

Exactly where in my post did I say that "everything would have worked out between Orser and Adam"? Where did I say that they should have stayed together?

This is exactly what I said:

And remember why he left? Brian wanted Adam to do off-ice training and Adam didn't want to do that. (Phil Hersh wrote an article about their split.)

Then a few years ago Adam apparently finally figured out that, yes, he needed to do off-ice training. Imagine how much more he might have accomplished as a skater if he had listened to Orser instead of wasting years jumping from coach to coach.

I said that they split, per what Phil Hersh reported, over a disagreement about off-ice training. Did other factors play a role? Possibly. Probably. I'm glad Adam did go elsewhere because it opened the door for Javi and Yuzu to train with Brian--partnerships that have resulted in two Olympic Gold medals, one bronze Olympic medal, four world titles, numerous Grand Prix titles, European titles, Nationals titles, etc.

As for Adam wasting years jumping from coach to coach, I stand by that comment. Unfortunately this happens to a lot of skaters and it's never a good thing. Most coaches agree that it takes roughly 1.5 to 2 years for a skater to gel with a coach and that's a lot of years given the relatively short life of a competitive skating career and given Adam's relatively late start as a skater. Adam has admitted to not working especially hard during many of those years, years when he could have been improving his skating and other technical skills. You know, like Javi did.

And had he done that, it's possible he might--note that I said might and not would--have had a more distinguished career. As I've always loved his artistic side, I'm delighted he finally got his act together and was lucky enough to peak at just the right time. I definitely agree with the decision to send him to the Olympics because he's been a great ambassador for USFS.

aftershocks, I have no problem with you disagreeing with my beliefs that off-ice training is a good thing or that moving from coach to coach is not a positive thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But I do have a problem with you ignoring my actual words and attacking me over stuff I've never written. I notice you do this a lot and it makes having rational conversations with you impossible.

I googled the Hersh article. (link) Even if we accept the premise that Hersh's take on things is 100% right, what you seem to be suggesting (basically, Adam didn't want to work hard and didn't want to do off-ice training), you're somewhat misrepresenting what Brian said and what Hersh wrote.

``Adam and I discussed the season and the challenges we had,'' Orser said. ``I had some ideas with conditioning, and they (Rippon and his advisors) said they were going to stick with their off-ice plan, that it was fine for them.

This doesn't read like Adam didn't want to do any off-ice training. (Unless there's another Hersh article you're talking about where this claim was made.) More like the issue was the disagreeing about the kind of off-ice training that should've been done.

And then there's this:

Orser, who has been coaching elites barely five years, also felt he has learned something from last season, when his reactions to some of Rippon's subpar performances, especially body language in the ``Kiss and Cry'' area, raised eyebrows.

The coach had drawn lots of positive attention -- and cameras -- for the unfettered joy in the way he mimed Kim's programs while standing at the rink boards as she did them on the ice.

``One of Brian's positive qualities is he is personally invested in and affected by how his students skate,'' Rippon said, ``The problem was if I wasn't skating well, I felt he was upset as well. His emotional state, I just fed off that.''

When told Rippon felt that way, Orser said it would spur him to curb his enthusiasm.

``It's just human for my coach to be disappointed if a skater doesn't do the best he can,'' Orser said. ``I made it clear to him I was never disappointed in him. I take responsibility, so I get disappointed with myself.

``The bottom line is I have to be less emotional when my skaters don't skate well. But every coach who believes in a student will be disappointed when they don't skate well.''

Given Adam's obvious troubles re: his confidence and consistency (or lack thereof) in the earlier part of his career, this sounds like a pretty important factor. (Also sounds like it was a learning experience for Orser himself, not inadvertently creating a negative feedback loop.)

 

[Vagabond]

Skaters train year-round.

Skaters do not train at the same level all year around. And they do take breaks. At least those who aren't heading for burnout do.

IIRC, there was a World Championship back in the 1990's where the U.S. didn't send as many skaters as it could have done to the Ladies competition because one of the designated skaters withdrew late and the alternate was unavailable due to vacation plans. (I'm sure someone here can recall the specifics.)

 

[Impromptu]

IIRC, there was a World Championship back in the 1990's where the U.S. didn't send as many skaters as it could have done to the Ladies competition because one of the designated skaters withdrew late and the alternate was unavailable due to vacation plans. (I'm sure someone here can recall the specifics.)

1998. Lipinski withdrew, Bobek withdrew, and Nikodinov was on vacation. Kwan and Kwiatkowski went.

 

[jlai]

In either case they still don't need more than 3 alternates.

 

[aftershocks]

As for Adam wasting years jumping from coach to coach, I stand by that comment.

You can stand by whatever perceptions you have and comments you make, which doesn't make it Adam's reality. And once again DEAD HORSE ALERT is right as @nimi said earlier. This is all water under the bridge. Adam and Orser moved on, both having learned lessons from their experience working together.

Adam has experienced a lot of ups and downs in his career and he never gave up on working toward his goals. I don't think he's wasted anything that has ever happened to him. And neither did he precipitously jump from coach-to-coach, but you can continue seeing it that way. After Morosov, Adam experienced three coaching situations, and the third one is the charm. I certainly do not see any of Adam's choices as 'wasting years jumping from coach to coach.' I also do not see any reason to continue belaboring this 'water under the bridge' conversation. Adam has ended his eligible skating career on a high note, and it's an occasion to celebrate and to be happy for him, not to negatively label him because it took him several years before he found the right coaching situation.

aftershocks, I have no problem with you disagreeing with my beliefs that off-ice training is a good thing or that moving from coach to coach is not a positive thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But I do have a problem with you ignoring my actual words and attacking me over stuff I've never written. I notice you do this a lot and it makes having rational conversations with you impossible.

Why you enjoy exaggerating is unclear. I did not say anything about off-ice training not being a good thing. So now you are ignoring what I actually said, which is the same thing you have accused me of. And please, I only responded to what you said, I did not attack you. Simply because I disagree with what you said and I articulated why, does not constitute an attack. Because I feel differently and I strongly voice my point of view does not mean you need to abandon yours. If my view effectively rebutted yours and that's upsetting to you, it certainly does not mean you are being attacked for seeing things differently. In any case, the topic in question is 'water under the bridge,' that we should just allow to flow away.

The problem is not about inability to have 'rational conversations.' It's about the fact that the majority of this back-and-forth exchange is pointless and a waste of time, especially when miscommunication, misinterpretation and willful exaggeration is thrown at me simply because I shared my point of view. There's nothing left to say, except that we disagree. It's past time to let it go.

 

[wickedwitch]

*DEAD HORSE ALERT*I googled the Hersh article. (link) Even if we accept the premise that Hersh's take on things is 100% right, what you seem to be suggesting (basically, Adam didn't want to work hard and didn't want to do off-ice training), you're somewhat misrepresenting what Brian said and what Hersh wrote.

This doesn't read like Adam didn't want to do any off-ice training. (Unless there's another Hersh article you're talking about where this claim was made.) More like the issue was the disagreeing about the kind of off-ice training that should've been done.

Thank you. The whole "Adam didn't want to do off-ice training" wasn't what I remembered, but I didn't have the source to back it up.

 

[Bellanca]

And then I decided to pop into this thread... Who needs the movies when you've got drama o'plenty right here!!

 

[Sylvia]

Only Ryan Dunk is listed as an alternate on the ISU website/list -- he was the only one not originally assigned as a competitor or alternate who attended the Junior Worlds camp in late January and so I assume that was the criterion to be listed as a JW alternate: https://www.instagram.com/p/BeoRhSvFK3E/?hl=en&taken-by=usfigureskating)

I don't know who of the original alternates attended the camp but I heard USFS conducted a simulated competition between the skaters (i.e. skating their SP and FS) so they could rank the alternates. I would assume based on the entries/alternates list that Ryan ranked first after that process, but I don't know any details.

If you click on the linked Instagram photo in my post quoted above, it looks like Ryan Dunk may have been the only men's alternate who attended the Junior Worlds camp. (Or if any of the originally listed alternates were there, maybe they were camera-shy?)

I'm really looking forward to seeing Alex K., Camden, and Tomoki compete at Junior Worlds in Sofia next week!

 

[aftershocks]

And then I decided to pop into this thread... Who needs the movies when you've got drama o'plenty right here!!

Don't tell me you came here looking for 'rational conversations' @Weve3!

Emotional exhaustion in an Olympics year leads to all kinds of stuff going on apparently, with endless merry-go-round rides to nowhere. I understand why many saner fans tend to stay out of certain threads during height of competition events and aftermath, and possibly altogether.

 

[Lizziebeth]

If you click on the linked Instagram photo in my post quoted above, it looks like Ryan Dunk may have been the only men's alternate who attended the Junior Worlds camp. (Or if any of the originally listed alternates were there, maybe they were camera-shy?)

I'm really looking forward to seeing Alex K., Camden, and Tomoki compete at Junior Worlds in Sofia next week!

Me too. That is a really really good team of men for junior worlds!

 

[Bellanca]

So, now we have Max replacing Jason at Worlds... https://twitter.com/CoachTomZ/status/969557498347773953

 

[AYS]

So, now we have Max replacing Jason at Worlds... https://twitter.com/CoachTomZ/status/969557498347773953

Do we know he's replacing Jason?

 

[Tavi]

Th

So, now we have Max replacing Jason at Worlds... https://twitter.com/CoachTomZ/status/969557498347773953

It states Max will be at Worlds, not who he’s replacing.

 

[shuilee]

It's official. Jason is OUT. Max is IN.

http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat03108710.htm

 

[Bellanca]

Th


It states Max will be at Worlds, not who he’s replacing.

Thank you, Einstein. Man, you're on it! Can't pull the wool over your eyes...

 

[el henry]

Thank you, Einstein. Man, you're on it! Can't pull the wool over your eyes...

So why did you say he was replacing Jason? Do you *know* something other than the meanderings of TSL or your own hot take?

ETA: IceNetwork just tweeted Jason passed. So NOW we may have some confirmation....

 

[Sylvia]

USFS' press release: http://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=91354&type=media

Third alternate Max Aaron will replace Rippon in the men’s event. Both Jason Brown and Ross Miner, the first and second alternates, respectively, declined invitations to the event. Aaron won the bronze medal at Cup of China in the fall, and recently placed fifth at the Four Continents Championships. This will mark Aaron’s fourth appearance at the World Championships.

 

[Tavi]

Thank you, Einstein. Man, you're on it! Can't pull the wool over your eyes...

I usually avoid reading your posts because they’re so pretentious and full of “I’m an insider and know something that you don’t” crap. Since you’ve now added rudeness into the mix, I’ll just bow out from the conversation.

 

[Bellanca]

I usually avoid reading your posts because they’re so pretentious and full of “I’m an insider and know something that you don’t” crap. Since you’ve now added rudeness into the mix, I’ll just bow out from the conversation.

Sounds good. I'll put in a thumbs-down for you... Maybe try the ignore option? Or, decaf? I'm kidding!

BTW, this info re Max, Jason and Ross, etc. had been out there for a good two hours, easily, before I said a thing. I'm just sayin'...