U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[Tavi]

Adam will be getting some healthy 9+ component scores if he lands all his content at Nationals, which will certainly keep him within range of Vincent/Max for Top 3 no matter what content they complete.

Everyone else (other than maybe Grant) is realistically out of it at this point.

Jason is "realistically out of it" even though he's already scored higher internationally than Vincent, Adam, and Grant?

 

[Sylvia]

,^^^ I assumed @Seerek is including Nathan and Jason in the top 2 category.

Vincent shared 3 photos from Finlandia (the men's podium, Boyang hiding behind his Moomin mittens , and the outside edge spreadeagle in his Moulin Rouge FS): https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ91DtsFs6o/?hl=en&taken-by=govincentzhou

I haven't found a photo of Vincent's hand-knitted mittens yet but Adam's lion ones are cute : https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ9pLEpDg93/?taken-by=tanjaflade

 

[Seerek]

,^^^ I assumed @Seerek is including Nathan and Jason in the top 2 category.

Yes I was, thanks Sylvia for knowing my posting style well enough by now to pick that up right away .

 

[AxelAnnie]

Loved that from Leonova.

 

[Bellanca]

With all of these predictions about certain guys already doomed and out of contention, @olympic should see this thread's traffic picking up. Tell someone their guy is toast and ...

Honestly, for an athlete to read or hear things like:

• It's not your time, yet.
• You're the future.
• Wait your turn.
• You haven't got a prayer.

And so on and so forth is .

This emphasis on a pecking order, the thinly veiled attempt to turn naming a team into a popularity contest, to rely too heavily on a body of work and such considerations is just pure bullsh!t! And always has been. Let the skaters be the athletes that they are and compete to earn it, no matter if they've been to Worlds, won any medals, ever competed at a Nationals or on the GP. Let's see how they all do and let the chips fall where they may. The ones who deliver throughout the season, there's your team. Now that is the true spirit of competition. Sports should never be micromanaged.

 

[SmallFairy]

I really like Nathan, I have such a soft spot for Max, Jason is truly a great guy, Vincent is really up and coming... But... I need Adam in Korea!!! So so so badly. His programs and joy of skating needs to be on Olympic ice.

Yours sincerely, crazy fan girl

 

[SmallFairy]

,^^^ I assumed @Seerek is including Nathan and Jason in the top 2 category.

Vincent shared 3 photos from Finlandia (the men's podium, Boyang hiding behind his Moomin mittens , and the outside edge spreadeagle in his Moulin Rouge FS): https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ91DtsFs6o/?hl=en&taken-by=govincentzhou

I haven't found a photo of Vincent's hand-knitted mittens yet but Adam's lion ones are cute : https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ9pLEpDg93/?taken-by=tanjaflade

Boyang's mittens are gem! Love Finlandia

 

[CassAgain]

Loved that from Leonova.

Maybe she can her way into nabbing that third US men's spot.

 

[olympic]

DELETE POST

 

[jlai]

With all of these predictions about certain guys already doomed and out of contention, @olympic should see this thread's traffic picking up. Tell someone their guy is toast and ...

Honestly, for an athlete to read or hear things like:

• It's not your time, yet.
• You're the future.
• Wait your turn.
• You haven't got a prayer.

And so on and so forth is .

This emphasis on a pecking order, the thinly veiled attempt to turn naming a team into a popularly contest, to rely too heavily on a body of work and such considerations is just pure bullsh!t! And always has been. Let the skaters be the athletes that they are and compete to earn it, no matter if they've been to Worlds, won any medals, ever competed at a Nationals or on the GP. Let's see how they all do and let the chips fall where they may. The ones who deliver throughout the season, there's your team. Now that is the true spirit of competition. Sports should never be micromanaged.

I was just talking about who I want to see on the team, which is the whole point of FSU? Just like I talk about whose costume I prefer. Not that USFS has to take that into account.

Also you talk about the ones who deliver throughout the season--that is body of work too.

 

[jiejie]

Alphabetical order: Aaron, Brown, Chen, Rippon, Zhou are the front-runners and I think the Olympic and World teams will come from this group. I could be happy with any combination since I love all of them; sad that USA can't field a team of 5 men (just like sad we can't have 5 Russian ladies!).
Still possible: Hochstein, Miner could sneak into the mix but will have to have barn-burner skates from here on out including Nationals.
Realistically, even though I love skaters like Johnson and Rabbitt, I don't think they will be up for the post-Nationals ISU championship assignments. And I don't think skaters doing international junior (Kraznozhon etc) are in the running at all for this season.

 

[wickedwitch]

Realistically, even though I love skaters like Johnson and Rabbitt, I don't think they will be up for the post-Nationals ISU championship assignments. And I don't think skaters doing international junior (Kraznozhon etc) are in the running at all for this season.

Johnson's been top 6 before, including last season. If he places that high this season, which isn't unreasonable, he'll get 4CC.

 

[jiejie]

Johnson's been top 6 before, including last season. If he places that high this season, which isn't unreasonable, he'll get 4CC.

It's not unreasonable, but Rippon wasn't at last season's Nationals and Aaron took himself out of the running after an uncharacteristically bad short--a problem that I don't expect him to repeat this year. Still, 4CC's spots tend to be more wide open in an Olympic year with initially selected skaters declining.

 

[Bellanca]

I was just talking about who I want to see on the team, which is the whole point of FSU? Just like I talk about whose costume I prefer. Not that USFS has to take that into account.

Oh, sure, I understand that, and well you should. And, no, USFS will not consider a fan’s opinions about a skater’s costume – judges might consider their own opinions, for better or for worse.

What is apparent and (my word of the week) unfortunate is when fans get so caught up in ‘their’ skater making the team that you sense a real combative, emotional-laden hostility toward the other skaters who are perceived as rocking the boat or taking away some sort of entitlement to an Olympic spot. These skaters become chastised and belittled as not having a chance in hell of making the team, most of it by design. I am not sure whether to laugh or cry for such emotional, excessive, over-the-top fandom like this.

Most posters understand that not all fan favorites will make the Olympic team, and this very fact, alone, really sucks ... it does, but there’s just not enough spots.

To suggest that a skater like Grant Hochstein, for example (apologies to Grant, not picking on him) also a fan favorite, should pack it in and head home before the season has begun, is just such a shame, for the sport, for him, for us, etc. Of course, someone like Grant knows he must earn it and consistently deliver when it counts.

Also you talk about the ones who deliver throughout the season--that is body of work too.

Your opinion regarding a skater’s body of work is a valid point, but a skater needs to deliver and build on this body of work when it counts.

It sets a dangerous precedent, creating bias, when a skater falters at Nationals or at a GPF, for example, but then expects or relies too much on their federation to save the day for them because they have a world appearance, a world title, or a medal from a season or two ago. If these were the etched in stone rules across-the-board and mandatory for ALL skating federations, Liza T. would be going to the Olympics because she is a World Champion in this quad, but as it stands, she must still earn it – which is how it should be. (Apologies, a slight thread drift, but a viable example.)

So many fans want the ISU to level the playing field and change the rules re jumps, etc. yet, they want to see their skating federations cherry-pick the teams. Talk about having your cake and eating it too…

 

[olympic]

I also think the 3 US spots come down to 5 competitors - Chen, Aaron, Brown, Zhou and Rippon. Miner has fine SS but I don't think he has as much USFSA cred as the others and his top score is 10 points below the top score of Zhou, who is the lowest of the top 5 listed, and that will probably track upward.

Among the top 5, Chen will be on the team barring a disaster. That leaves 2 spots among the others. It will all depend on what they bring: Aaron will have to showcase 2 quads in the SP and 3-4 quads in the LP, plus keep the levels in spins and FW that he sometimes misses to be in contention. If Brown's 4T or 4S is MIA, it is possible for him to snag a spot but everything else will have to be spot on. Rippon's position is a little more precarious because he is also missing a quad at the moment and his PCS is behind Brown. Zhou would seem to be an outsider if you look at scores, but he has youth and is part of the future. If he hits 4-5 quads in the LP and skates the programs well, the judges may score him above everyone except Chen. A wild card.

Unfortunately, I don't give Hochstein much of a chance (based on what we are seeing now). He might make the final group at Nationals.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I don't think the junior World Champion will be left off the Oly Team, and I think he will continue to improve throughout GP.

I am thinking Nathan, Vincent and the better of Jason and Adam.

I agree with your assessment on Max @olympic I just think Jason and Adam have greater potential of doing what they need to do versus Max doing what you (and I) think.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Oh, sure, I understand that, and well you should. And, no, USFS will not consider a fan’s opinions about a skater’s costume – judges might consider their own opinions, for better or for worse.

What is apparent and (my word of the week) unfortunate is when fans get so caught up in ‘their’ skater making the team that you sense a real combative, emotional-laden hostility toward the other skaters who are perceived as rocking the boat or taking away some sort of entitlement to an Olympic spot. These skaters become chastised and belittled as not having a chance in hell of making the team, most of it by design. I am not sure whether to laugh or cry for such emotional, excessive, over-the-top fandom like this.

Most posters understand that not all fan favorites will make the Olympic team, and this very fact, alone, really sucks ... it does, but there’s just not enough spots.

To suggest that a skater like Grant Hochstein, for example (apologies to Grant, not picking on him) also a fan favorite, should pack it in and head home before the season has begun, is just such a shame, for the sport, for him, for us, etc. Of course, someone like Grant knows he must earn it and consistently deliver when it counts.

Your opinion regarding a skater’s body of work is a valid point, but a skater needs to deliver and build on this body of work when it counts.

It sets a dangerous precedent, creating bias, when a skater falters at Nationals or at a GPF, for example, but then expects or relies too much on their federation to save the day for them because they have a world appearance, a world title, or a medal from a season or two ago. If these were the etched in stone rules across-the-board and mandatory for ALL skating federations, Liza T. would be going to the Olympics because she is a World Champion in this quad, but as it stands, she must still earn it – which is how it should be. (Apologies, a slight thread drift, but a viable example.)

So many fans want the ISU to level the playing field and change the rules re jumps, etc. yet, they want to see their skating federations cherry-pick the teams. Talk about having your cake and eating it too…

You make a good point. The Body of Work is important when someone has a bad night at a huge event. Obviously you hope to have your best night at the OLYS, after that, US Nats which is used to pick the OLY team. As we know, ice is slippery, and a skater could have a fabulous season......and one bad skate (at US Nats), so I am glad USFSA can take the entire season into consideration.

It is fairly obvious who lays it down consistently. But everyone can have a bad skate.

 

[Bellanca]

What USFS must resist doing is to hold back the future when the future is already here.

ETA: Especially if they deliver.

ETA II: Also, USFS should resist putting a skater on the team for sentimental reasons unless their skating warrants it.

 

[Dobre]

What USFS must resist doing is to hold back the future when the future is already here.

Yes, and also avoid pushing the future when it is not here yet. Throwing athletes into the spotlight who have not earned their place can force too much pressure and controversy on an athlete (younger or older) and result in undermining his or her self confidence. While putting athletes into the spotlight when they know they have earned it can send the right message to every other athlete in the field. It's worth it. It's worth staying in. It's worth developing your skills. It's worth sticking with your partner and staying together through the tough times/coaching changes/bumps along the way. Your time will come if you do your job.

Kovtun is a classic case in point, IMO, of how political selections can mess with an athlete's confidence & future development. When you don't know what it will take to prove yourself as a skater, it creates an impossible ceiling. One can feel like any mistake may be too much and athletes really need to be able to keep their heads in the game throughout competition.

Let them earn their way. And when they do, respect it. No matter their age.

You never know which athletes will continue and which ones will blow out like a candle. Who will be the Tara with a career-ending injury early. Who will be the Mirai who matures over the years & comes back after being knocked down. Who will be the Michelle who shows up super early and then stays and stays. Who will plan to get out early, but then matures & develops a longterm commitment. Or who will be back years later in a new discipline.

 

[Bellanca]

There are skaters who enjoy and experience success when they are younger people/athletes - while other skaters experience this success later in their careers - which is why it is so important for USFS to resist molding a skater's career into what they think it should be by calling the shots through controlling or micromanaging team selection.

Resist assumptions. Resist boxing in the athletes. Skaters rise (or fall) according to their own competitive clock - not when USFS decides so.

I'm not for pushing the issue, at all, but I'm also not for holding an athlete down so another can shine, unless they have earned (via fair competition) the right to do so.

 

[el henry]

I am all for not holding down one athlete so another can shine. But I am going to name names here....

Which means not holding down Jason so Vincent can shine. USFS holding up Jason as a sentimental favorite? Puh-leeze.

USFS has never cut Jason any breaks any time, anywhere. Every point and every placement that Jason has garnered is because he has, in fact, earned it. He fights and works hard for each and every one of those points.

If Vincent, as an eligible senior, actually lands the quads in comps where the pressure is on and where those quads mean he amasses more points than Jason, fine and dandy. But I don’t want to see anyone gifted an Oly spot because of quads they “have” or because of “potential”. I want to see them put it out there on the ice. When it counts.

Except for Nathan of course who would need a meltdown and splatfest of epic proportions to be left off the Oly team. That and flipping off the judges

 

[Marco]

At the start of this season, the front runners in terms of body of work would be Nathan and Vincent. Nathan because he won Nationals and 4CCs and placed top 6 at Worlds; and Vincent because he was 2nd at Nationals and won Jr Worlds. Jason with a 3rd at Nationals, 6th at 4CCs and 7th at Worlds is right behind. Unfortunately Adam, Aaron and the rest do not have particularly strong body of work under the current USFS criteria to help their case at this stage (Adam was 6th at GPF and Grant was 9th at 4CCs).

Let's see how / if the GP season can change things.

 

[olympic]

I don't think the junior World Champion will be left off the Oly Team, and I think he will continue to improve throughout GP.

I am thinking Nathan, Vincent and the better of Jason and Adam.

I agree with your assessment on Max @olympic I just think Jason and Adam have greater potential of doing what they need to do versus Max doing what you (and I) think.

Max seems to be fighting like hell, though. At USIC, he seemed like he was going to hit his elements no matter what it took. I am happy that he is going to give it his all, so I do think he is in contention. That said, his road to Pyeongcheng is a tougher one than Adam or Jason

 

[aftershocks]

I'm also not for holding an athlete down so another can shine,

The question though is, what does that mean 'holding an athlete down so another can shine'? When has this been done? I'm not saying it hasn't happened before, but can you give examples of when this happened? There's a difference between favoring one athlete over another, and 'holding an athlete down'. E.g., Evan Lysacek was clearly favored over Johnny Weir and Matt Savoie, and Jeremy Abbott. However, Jeremy was just too good at 2009 and 2010 U.S. Nats to be denied. Evan was 'favored' but that did not mean others were not allowed to shine. It's just that some of Evan's fellow U.S. competitors may have been unfairly denied team spots when they performed well, and they could not get away with mistakes while Evan and other favored skaters sometimes could. For example, I feel that Matt Savoie deserved to go to 2005 Worlds over Lysacek. But Lysacek was seen as the new up-and-comer who USFS wished to groom vs Johnny Weir who was never a favorite, despite being immensely talented. Famously, Adam was low-balled in the sp at 2015 Nationals. But Adam had been rejuvenated that season with his mindset and he was fit and prepared. And he was unwilling (as he said) to be 'phased out'. Thus Adam slam-dunked the free skate. But Jason Brown also rose to the occasion in fine fashion. Deciding the winner was a difficult decision. And the decision was no less difficult the following year at Nationals.

USFS has made many mistakes in the past (often based on favoritism and always based on politics). However, there are separate individuals who make up the federation, and so there are individual differences of opinion among federation and/or team selection committee members. The selection process has to be hard, particularly when everyone skates well. And making team selections isn't getting any easier because of athlete depth combined with the antiquated competition structure.

If all the guys perform well, which I hope happens, then my picks for the Olympic team are Nathan, Adam and Jason. I also love Max, Grant, Ross, and Timothy, Alex, Sean et al, too. I see Vincent as the up-and-coming generation of senior men, as I feel that Vincent right now, although he's superbly talented, is a bit less mature and he could use more seasoning. He's already an excellent competitor and a fast learner, but I don't think he's as polished and mature e.g., as Nathan who is only about a year older. Just because Vincent can land quads and he has a nice feel for the music does not make him mature and polished. He still seems a bit juniorish to me. Of course everyone has things they can improve upon. Anyway, I just get the sense now that USFS is somehow more primed to credit quadsters and to allow mature artistry to be an afterthought. There had been criticism in some quarters when Nathan was not rewarded higher than bronze in 2016, and when Adam won Nationals in 2016. I actually thought Nathan needed more seasoning in 2016 before winning Nationals, so I don't think his bronze was misplaced in 2016. I had thought Max would win in 2016, but I was glad when Adam won because he did earn it, and he had earned it the year before too. But in retrospect, I'm glad Jason won Nationals in 2015, because he certainly had a breakout competition in 2014, and he rose to the occasion in 2015 too.

In 2017, in part because of Nathan's wonderful success in advancing quads combined with USFS deciding that they were going to reward quadsters, Vincent also was highly rewarded which boosted his confidence for junior Worlds. Plus, Jason was battling an injury and he was not at full strength or I think he could have topped Vincent for the silver medal at '17 Nationals. I think Vincent was just happy to make the podium, and silver was an unexpected bonus. By 2017 Nationals, Nathan was more mature and he also had learned a lot about training effectively post his injuries and surgeries, and he was soaking everything up like a sponge. Plus IMO, Nathan is a bit more advanced performance-wise and musically than Vincent. I think Vincent needs at least another year just as Nathan did. This should be a learning season for Vincent. If the veterans perform well, I'd reward them over Vincent for the Olympics, even despite Vincent's quads, which he has not always been landing with perfect posture and execution. I realize though that Vincent is being favored due to his quads which were the secret to his success at '17 Nationals, and that's why he's continuing to pile them on in his programs.

So, with all skating their best: Nathan, Adam, Jason for the Olympic team; and I'd love to see Grant, Alex and Ross at 4CCs, with perhaps Nathan, Vincent and Max for Worlds. But that's just my picks with everyone skating well. It's definitely going to be tough. Overall, I think it's wonderful how well U.S. men have been performing in juniors and seniors this season.

 

[Bellanca]

Max seems to be fighting like hell, though. At USIC, he seemed like he was going to hit his elements no matter what it took. I am happy that he is going to give it his all, so I do think he is in contention. That said, his road to Pyeongcheng is a tougher one than Adam or Jason

That's been my point all along, or at least a part of it. I honestly don't think or buy into the belief that Max has a tougher road ahead of him than either Adam or Jason. That is a built-in misconception. Max is currently in a neck-and-neck race with Adam and Jason. Maybe a tad bit ahead of them in certain situations, and especially with his TES advantage. Now, if he messes up his jumps on a fairly regular basis, well, then, we have a different story, but that's with any of the men who are considered to be part of the Oly team mix.

It all comes down to bias and the mindset of preconceived notions that I've been commenting on and warning against especially when it comes to USFS. Then need to absolutely resist automatically and unfairly placing a skater behind the eight ball right from the get-go - no matter his age or how long he has been competing, etc. Of course, to expect or request neutrality from the fans goes directly against the grain of being a fan... And, it will never happen. USFS, on the other hand, they should know better.

 

[skateboy]

While I have my preferences, I think it is too early to make predictions. But I think the GP/GPF will be crucial... any US skaters that manage to place well there will likely be named to the Oly team, based on "body of work"... regardless of placement at Nationals (as much as I dislike that possibility).

In defense of Vincent: I do think he is making big strides artistically, and I was really pleased to see that he landed two spot on quads at Finlandia--toe loop and flip--absolutely rotated and clean.

 

[Bellanca]

I used the word "shine" to describe one athlete being favored over another athlete who may find himself being held back or down due to a ridiculous pecking order mentality. This mentality favors placing an athlete on an Olympic team for sentimental reasons, and because it's now deemed to be their turn, they are due, they deserve it, somehow, even if they haven't achieved this by competitive means, yet - and mainly if the young upstarts dare to rattle the cage. For they are young and have their whole careers ahead of them, whereas for the veterans, it's now or never, and sometimes their fans think they are entitled or owed a spot for hanging in and fighting the good fight. The younger guys? Phooey! They can wait! Right? Even though an injury could prematurely derail anyone's competitive career. But, no matter, they're young, they are the future, just wait your turn, already.

The bottom line for me is that everyone (in every discipline) needs to, through good old-fashioned, fair competition, earn their spot... And not because they are sentimental favorites who deserve (by default) to have an Olympic experience or return to the Olympics Games.

Nathan and Vincent must earn their spots, too - without any doubt. No free rides. However, it remains that they're the new guys, the future... So, sometimes, the "wait your turn" mentality kicks in which can become testy and convoluted. USFS cannot afford to get caught up in this again - unless they desire another PR nightmare. Not saying it is going to happen, but you never know what to expect. Like I have said, they should know better ... and they do. The question is, will they resist playing games? Stay tuned!

 

[misskarne]

Honestly, for an athlete to read or hear things like:

• It's not your time, yet.
• You're the future.
• Wait your turn.
• You haven't got a prayer.

And so on and so forth is .

Honestly, for an athlete to read or hear things like:

• You should make room for the younger skaters
• You'll never get any better at your age
• You've had your turn
• You haven't got a prayer

And so on and so forth is .

It will all depend on what they bring: Aaron will have to showcase 2 quads in the SP and 3-4 quads in the LP, plus keep the levels in spins and FW that he sometimes misses to be in contention. If Brown's 4T or 4S is MIA, it is possible for him to snag a spot but everything else will have to be spot on. Rippon's position is a little more precarious because he is also missing a quad at the moment and his PCS is behind Brown.

I am being as neutral as possible about this but I am curious. In this section, it seems that you demand a higher standard of Max than you do for Adam and Jason for that third spot. How come?

I don't think the junior World Champion will be left off the Oly Team

He was in 2014. Why should it be any different now? Joshua's JWC was no less outstanding than Vincent's.

What USFS must resist doing is to hold back the future when the future is already here.

What USFS must resist doing is to hold back the now in favour of the future when the now is skating well.

Yes, and also avoid pushing the future when it is not here yet.

Amen!

Max seems to be fighting like hell, though.

It's Max, does he know any other way?

Famously, Adam was low-balled in the sp at 2015 Nationals.

No, he wasn't.

And the decision was no less difficult the following year at Nationals.

No, it wasn't.

I had thought Max would win in 2016, but I was glad when Adam won because he did earn it, and he had earned it the year before too.

No, he didn't.

IHowever, it still remains that they're the new guys, the future... So, sometimes, the "wait your turn" mentality kicks in which can become testy and convoluted. USFS cannot afford to get caught up in this again - unless they desire another PR nightmare.

However, it still remains that they're the new guys, the future...So, sometimes, the LOOK LET'S PUSH OUR SHINY NEW TOYS! mentality kicks in which can become testy and convoluted. USFS cannot afford to get caught up in this again - unless they desire another PR nightmare.


I find it interesting that posters are vehemently arguing that there's a "wait your turn" mentality going on, when really, it's exactly the opposite. Look how immediately Nathan and Vincent have become the "faces". Look how immediately Nathan got the sponsorships. Look how immediately the USFS have jumped to promote them, as if the men they had before weren't marketable. If anything, the exact opposite is happening - that people are quickly tossing aside the older men in favour of the shiny new young toys.

Throw them in together to compete on an even playing field, put in a strict, harsh tech panel at Nationals, and let's see what happens.

 

[dinakt]

While I have my preferences, I think it is too early to make predictions. But I think the GP/GPF will be crucial... any US skaters that manage to place well there will likely be named to the Oly team, based on "body of work"... regardless of placement at Nationals (as much as I dislike that possibility).

This. GP season+ Nationals will probably be the deciding factors for every skater except Nathan, who just needs to stay healthy. It is premature to talk about "body of work" without the GP season. Anybody making GPF will have a huge advantage over others.
I think if nobody but Nathan makes the GFP, the results at Nationals will weigh in more.

 

[Bellanca]

@olympic, this thread is moving along now, huh?! You're welcome!!

I personally do not expect anything more from Max or hold him to a higher standard as compared to Adam or Jason. He is every bit as capable as they are, more so, of getting a spot on the Oly team IF he has a strong, consistent season! I like his chances if this should happen and I believe his star will SHINE brightly. No toys are necessary.

*Veterans should not be held up and newbies should not be held down, or vice-versa. Compete and see what happens.