U.S. Men 2019-20 season - news & updates

[hoptoad]

I was wondering how difficult the men's TES requirement is. If quads are required to make it, I think it's definitely too high for just qualifying.

If a skater had, for example, all level 3 spins and steps and '0' GOE on all elements, what jump content would be required? If they filled out all the jump boxes with triples and doubles, could they they survive popping a few jumps?

 

[jlai]

I was wondering how difficult the men's TES requirement is. If quads are required to make it, I think it's definitely too high for just qualifying.

If a skater had, for example, all level 3 spins and steps and '0' GOE on all elements, what jump content would be required? If they filled out all the jump boxes with triples and doubles, could they they survive popping a few jumps?

But quads are not required to make it. Sean Rabbit along with Kim and quite a few got the mins without a quad or 3A.

 

[clairecloutier]

But quads are not required to make it. Sean Rabbit along with Kim and quite a few got the mins without a quad or 3A.

Yes, I didn't know the details of what everyone qualified with, so I was just posing the question. Sounds like the answer is no, you don't have to have quads (or triple Axels).

 

[jlai]

Yes, I didn't know the details of what everyone qualified with, so I was just posing the question. Sounds like the answer is no, you don't have to have quads (or triple Axels).

Like I mentioned before, those who didn't qualify have scores closer to what a qualifying jr man gets.

I feel like the calling is a bit generous in some competitions maybe to help skaters get their mins. If this incentivize lenient scoring then perhaps the mins should be lower...

 

[Tavi]

My understanding is the qualifying TES for men is 90 total (SP & FS) earned at one competition in the current year (versus 75 for ladies). Not sure why they would require higher TES for men than ladies? Unless I’m forgetting something, the only difference is that men are permitted (not required) to do quads in the SP. But since many guys qualifying through sectionals will not be jumping quads, and since there are far fewer men than ladies competing, the gender based requirements don’t make sense to me.

Anyway, I was thinking that maybe it’s part of a USFS attempt to make qualifying (and thus Team USA) more competitive Internationally. Seems kind of backwards, but that’s not really surprising for USFS. ?

 

[jlai]

Anyway, I was thinking that maybe it’s part of a USFS attempt to make qualifying (and thus Team USA) more competitive Internationally. Seems kind of backwards, but that’s not really surprising for USFS. ?

I doubt it. Except Ma and Tran, the senior men at sectionals aren't competing internationally. I think it's there to make nationals shorter.

 

[Tavi]

I doubt it. Except Ma and Tran, the senior men at sectionals aren't competing internationally. I think it's there to make nationals shorter.

I have no idea what the real reason is. But barring injury, there will be 22 senior ladies at Nats this season. There were 18 last year. There will be 16 senior men this year and there were 20 last year. So the number of senior ladies has increased by 4 and the number of senior men has decreased by 4. So it doesn’t seem like nationals will be much shorter.

My point regarding trying to make US men more competitive was simply that if you want to make nationals and eventually have a chance at international assignments, you now know that you can’t just be in the top 4 but you also have to meet a certain technical benchmark. Same for the ladies. Which down the road should lead to a larger pool of men who may be competitive internationally. It’s just a guess on my part and I could be completely wrong.

 

[mtnskater]

Alexei Krasnoshan seemed to be moving up with a promising future a couple of years ago, but seems to be on a downward trajectory since then. Hate to see talent go to waste. He looked undertrained and not ready for prime time in Russia. What gives? I’m wondering about his training situation because many skaters seem to look this way from that camp.

I know the ankle injury from JR Worlds was a bad one.

 

[jlai]

I have no idea what the real reason is. But barring injury, there will be 22 senior ladies at Nats this season. There were 18 last year. There will be 16 senior men this year and there were 20 last year. So the number of senior ladies has increased by 4 and the number of senior men has decreased by 4. So it doesn’t seem like nationals will be much shorter.

My point regarding trying to make US men more competitive was simply that if you want to make nationals and eventually have a chance at international assignments, you now know that you can’t just be in the top 4 but you also have to meet a certain technical benchmark. Same for the ladies. Which down the road should lead to a larger pool of men who may be competitive internationally. It’s just a guess on my part and I could be completely wrong.

The number of ladies qualifying out of sectionals hasn't changed. They just have more byes this year. Last year they have major changing of the guard, with 3 of the top 5 not returning the following year so that are three fewer byes right there given. Plus some of the top tens not returning as well. It has nothing to do with this.

 

[jlai]

Alexei Krasnoshan seemed to be moving up with a promising future a couple of years ago, but seems to be on a downward trajectory since then. Hate to see talent go to waste. He looked undertrained and not ready for prime time in Russia. What gives? I’m wondering about his training situation because many skaters seem to look this way from that camp.

I know the ankle injury from JR Worlds was a bad one.

He was in great shape at US classic. But adding a 4 flip for the GP is such a big step it takes a lot of energy and messes with the rest of the program imho

 

[Dobre]

He looked pretty much like Krasnozhon to me. He has a nice axel and a nice loop on the end of a combination. Those are bread & butter in a junior men's SP. Last year, after the injury, he was clearly struggling with the triples & jumps he usually has; but those jumps are back.

He has been trying a quadruple for a long time, but he has never had a solid one. The plan now seems to be to try three different ones throughout the season and see if something will work? (I don't know. Jackie posted nice things about the flip in practices so maybe it is better there, but thus far in competition I don't think anything looks better than the loop he started with originally?) This plan seems questionable to me at best, but since Alexei has really never had a solid quad, I wouldn't say that he has gone backward. More that upon entering seniors it became imperative to put one in the SP, which means that he doesn't start off competitions as solidly as he did his final season in juniors.

His performance at the U.S. Classic this year was probably as solid as I have seen him in senior competition. It is good to see him healthy again.

 

[Tavi]

The number of ladies qualifying out of sectionals hasn't changed. They just have more byes this year. Last year they have major changing of the guard, with 3 of the top 5 not returning the following year so that are three fewer byes right there given. Plus some of the top tens not returning as well. It has nothing to do with this.

As I said, I have no information on the rationale for this move. Perhaps you do.

 

[concorde]

He was in great shape at US classic. But adding a 4 flip for the GP is such a big step it takes a lot of energy and messes with the rest of the program imho

I saw him in Philly over the summer and he was struggling. Made me wonder how long he had been back on the ice. That was late July.

 

[aftershocks]

Jordan Moeller (60.14 TES in FS + 40.36 in SP, total 100.5) won the Upper Great Lakes Senior Men's event this past weekend and got the minimum.

I thought Jordan was taking a break from competition, or maybe that was last season and he's back now?

 

[Sylvia]

From a July 31, 2019 post here:

Jordan Moeller Q&A article: http://figureskatersonline.com/news...-enjoyment-from-skating-in-a-different-scene/

Moeller: I will be competing this season! I am not sure what will be my first competition yet, but at the latest, I will be competing in November at the Midwestern Sectional Championships. My short program has been choreographed and I am going to be choreographing my long program while I am here in the UK.

 

[aftershocks]

...
*Tomoki

(Though I'm all that Camden had a great debut).

Although Tomoki is extremely talented and can lay it out when he's in the zone, I haven't been too impressed by Tomoki's programs or by his competitive performances so far this season.

Camden has two great programs, instead of one great one like last season. Camden needs to work on consistency and confidence in competition. And when he gets great scores because he deserves them, sure he can be surprised, but he shouldn't lay the surprise on too thick. Own it in the kiss 'n cry, and go out on the ice and continue showing how good you are, Camden!

 

[Tavi]

From a July 31, 2019 post here:

Moeller: I will be competing this season! I am not sure what will be my first competition yet, but at the latest, I will be competing in November at the Midwestern Sectional Championships. My short program has been choreographed and I am going to be choreographing my long program while I am here in the UK.

So Jordan is no longer with Kori anymore, either. Gosh, I don’t think a single one of her senior national level skaters followed her to Tennessee- which makes me wonder what she’s doing.

But back to Jordan - so happy he made it and hoping he does great at Nats this season! He is super talented (always reminded me a bit of Jeremy Abbott), but that broken leg a few years ago really stopped him in his tracks. Hoping for the best for him!

 

[aftershocks]

In the FSO article, Jordan didn't say one way or the other whether he was going to return to Colorado Springs, or follow Kori to Tennessee. Unless his decision has been clarified by who he was with in the kiss 'n cry at the recent Sectionals comp... I haven't seen that comp yet.

 

[Sylvia]

Eddie Shipstad and Sandy (Rucker) Straub were in the kiss & cry with Moeller at Mids while Ryan Jahnke was with Ben Jalovick. All coach at the World Arena in Colorado Springs.

 

[aftershocks]

Yes, I didn't know the details of what everyone qualified with, so I was just posing the question. Sounds like the answer is no, you don't have to have quads (or triple Axels).

So is it that you have to go clean with high GOE? Or gain more competitive opportunities to be sharper, and to have more chances to make the minimums?

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

So Jordan is no longer with Kori anymore, either. Gosh, I don’t think a single one of her senior national level skaters followed her to Tennessee- which makes me wonder what she’s doing.

Just as an aside: Kori has discussed the move to CO at her skate camps I've attended and it's typically framed as Jason and Jordan were both finishing up high school, therefore easier to move at such a common juncture in a person's life.

I wasn't surprised that no one followed her, but she also doesn't need them. The clout of Scott Hamilton means she doesn't have to be the face of a skating school, and can work on what interests her the most.

If you've ever talked to Kori, it becomes immediately apparent that developing skating pedagogy is her whole thing. She wants to take her experiences of working with those skaters and synthesize them into a methodology for other coaches—that is what the SHARP4Sports program is all about.

On top of this, Kori has figured out a good formula for creating profitable adult skating camps. There's better money to be made serving as many people as possible than just an elite few.

OK, back to the topic!

 

[Tavi]

Just as an aside: Kori has discussed the move to CO at her skate camps I've attended and it's typically framed as Jason and Jordan were both finishing up high school, therefore easier to move at such a common juncture in a person's life.

I wasn't surprised that no one followed her, but she also doesn't need them. The clout of Scott Hamilton means she doesn't have to be the face of a skating school, and can work on what interests her the most.

If you've ever talked to Kori, it becomes immediately apparent that developing skating pedagogy is her whole thing. She wants to take her experiences of working with those skaters and synthesize them into a methodology for other coaches—that is what the SHARP4Sports program is all about.

On top of this, Kori has figured out a good formula for creating profitable adult skating camps. There's better money to be made serving as many people as possible than just an elite few.

OK, back to the topic!

I do know about the history of Kori’s move to Colorado and her passion for developmental skating, and I agree it’s not surprising that her older senior level skaters chose to stay in Colorado. But I’m pretty sure that at least Jordan and Courtney were considering the move, and I know they participated in one of the Scott Hamilton benefits. One of the reasons I was wondering about Kori is that she’s listed on the Ford Center website as the “Elite Figure Skating Manager,” and my understanding is that at least at some point Scott wanted to develop an elite training center like TCC, so I’m curious if that’s still in the works. Anyway, I’m sure it’s easier for her to be able to focus on coaching and developing athletes without the headache of running a program herself. And since I know she has two little girls, I’m guessing she welcomes not having to travel to international competitions right now because they’re both still pretty young.

Back on topic, I’m happy that Jordan made it to Nats and sad Ben didn’t - I saw him at the Peggy Fleming comp last year, and he has a lot of really nice qualities to his skating.

Also really looking forward to seeing Jason and Tomoki at NHK this week!

ETA @Sylvia, I think Eddie Shipstad and Ryan Jahnke also have some involvement with the current figure skating program in Monument, or at least coach there from time to time.

 

[Willin]

I think Kori produces amazing skaters, but I also think she's better teaching things like skating skills, spins, and basic jump technique to form a foundation that skaters can build off of with other coaches. All of her long-term skaters have a great foundation in skating skills, spins, jump technique, and moves. But at the same time I don't think she's good at politicking and doesn't have the competitive mindset skaters want in getting to the top (remember how her skaters were only doing doubles or skipping jumps in summer comps?). She's an excellent technical and artistic coach, but perhaps is lacking in competitive training for elite competition. I think she'll have a lot more success being at a skating academy where she can be part of a coaching team than she had creating her own skating school and leading the coaching team.

 

[el henry]

I think Kori produces amazing skaters, but I also think she's better teaching things like skating skills, spins, and basic jump technique to form a foundation that skaters can build off of with other coaches. All of her long-term skaters have a great foundation in skating skills, spins, jump technique, and moves. But at the same time I don't think she's good at politicking and doesn't have the competitive mindset skaters want in getting to the top (remember how her skaters were only doing doubles or skipping jumps in summer comps?). She's an excellent technical and artistic coach, but perhaps is lacking in competitive training for elite competition. I think she'll have a lot more success being at a skating academy where she can be part of a coaching team than she had creating her own skating school and leading the coaching team.

I can’t speak to other factors, but Jason’s marking his jumps in summer comps had nothing to do with competitive mindset. He has talked in interviews about how difficult it was for him to learn Rohene’s choreo. He was concentrating on mastering the choreo at comps where results weren’t as important. I’m not really sure anyone who makes it to this level is less than competitive, or needs a coach to push that aspect.

And jumping off, thank you @Sylvia for the news about who was in the KnC with Jordan and Ben. Their social media showed they had stayed in CO, but I didn’t know who they were training with.

 

[Willin]

@el henry If it was just Jason it wouldn't be an issue - but a lot of her other skaters did the same thing, and IIRC it was confirmed in an interview with either her or one of the skaters that it was encouraged to do that.

 

[el henry]

@el henry If it was just Jason it wouldn't be an issue - but a lot of her other skaters did the same thing, and IIRC it was confirmed in an interview with either her or one of the skaters that it was encouraged to do that.

Wow I did not know that or have not seen that interview.

And jumping off, I am pretty sure that Kori wanted some of her senior skaters to follow her, I know Scott Hamilton said at the benefit introducing Courtney, “we’re trying to get her to move to Nashville”. Colorado to Nashville is a hard sell

 

[wickedwitch]

I think Kori produces amazing skaters, but I also think she's better teaching things like skating skills, spins, and basic jump technique to form a foundation that skaters can build off of with other coaches. All of her long-term skaters have a great foundation in skating skills, spins, jump technique, and moves. But at the same time I don't think she's good at politicking and doesn't have the competitive mindset skaters want in getting to the top (remember how her skaters were only doing doubles or skipping jumps in summer comps?). She's an excellent technical and artistic coach, but perhaps is lacking in competitive training for elite competition. I think she'll have a lot more success being at a skating academy where she can be part of a coaching team than she had creating her own skating school and leading the coaching team.

So I know Kori frequently got outside help, including trips to California in the summer, for Jason and Jordan for jumps. She can't do that with a large group, so she needs someone there. She didn't have any skaters at sectionals, so my guess is that she hasn't found someone yet.

(I think one of the biggest reasons for Jason's issues in 2017-2018 was that he stopped working with Frank Carroll. IIRC, he was too busy, but unless there was some unannounced personal issues, I can't imagine what he needed to spend his time on if not solidifying his jumps. Both Kori and Jason should have been more proactive about getting Jason to LA that season. And apparently I'm still annoyed about this.)

 

[Alexa]

Nathan has been named Male Olympic Athlete of the year, beating some incredible athletes like Caeleb Dressel, Noah Lyles, Vincent Hancock and Brady Ellison

Team USA on Twitter

“Precision. Purpose. Perfection in 2019. 2x defending world champion & 3x defending U.S. champion @nathanwchen has been named Male Olympic Athlete of the Year. ? #TeamUSAAwards, Best of the Year presented by @DowNewsroom”

twitter.com

https://www.teamusa.org/News/2019/November/19/USOPC-Announces-Winners-For-2019-Team-USA-Awards-Presented-by-Dow-Best-of-the-Year

 

[Tavi]

@el henry If it was just Jason it wouldn't be an issue - but a lot of her other skaters did the same thing, and IIRC it was confirmed in an interview with either her or one of the skaters that it was encouraged to do that.

Kori has said in interviews that in order to preserve the integrity of the choreography, she had her skaters learn the programs with doubles and only when they could they could run the program perfectly with the easier jumps would they add the triples one at a time. She acknowledged that this was a different approach to other coaches. It makes sense to me, but I’m not a competitive skater.

Regarding Jason not going to Frank as much in 2017-2018, I have no actual knowledge, but my suspicion has always been that he was torn about whether to leave Kori to work full time with Frank in 2016-17, and that he ended up staying with her until after 2018 Nationals, when he realized that if her were to continue he had to make fundamental changes. By that point, Frank was no longer coaching full time. Jason has also said that he was pulled in a lot of directions in the run up to the Olympics.

 

[love_skate2011]

Jason Brown and Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Brown_(figure_skater)