U.S. Men 2019-20 season - news & updates

shuilee

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Andrew Torgashev getting 9.5s for PCS from judges! :eek: What is this program? I wanna see it!!

Apparently men and women compete against each other in this "artistic free program". I wonder what are the tech rules?
 

Willin

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2,046
@shuilee Right? I've seen him live and I wouldn't give him near those marks. 8s certainly for speed and edge quality, but not right up there near Jason Brown. This must be a spectacular program from him.
 

Tavi

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@shuilee Right? I've seen him live and I wouldn't give him near those marks. 8s certainly for speed and edge quality, but not right up there near Jason Brown. This must be a spectacular program from him.
They were so different.

Andrew is really fast. He had the advantage of skating in the final group. He also followed a few people who weren’t quite as strong. That said, he was also really on last night and gave a really good performance. The program is quite high energy and extroverted, even showy. He comes off as very confident. I got the feeling he was there to win, and he nearly did.

Jason skated in the middle group. He was a bit subdued last night (I think he was jet lagged and struggling with the altitude), but even so his skating was so effortless and he covered a lot of ice so easily. He had such beautiful flowing edges, almost as if he were just playing on the ice. The program is very light and almost contemplative, very different in style than what Andrew did. Which is kind of funny, because so many people think of Jason as Mr Show Biz. But this program is very different to the showy programs he’s known for, like his Hamilton SP.

All this to say, it’ll be really interesting to see how both of them do this season.
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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Andrew Torgashev getting 9.5s for PCS from judges! :eek: What is this program? I wanna see it!!
Torgashev debuted his self-choreographed short program to "Bloodstream" by Tokio Myers (incorporates a version of Debussy's "Clair de Lune" in the beginning) at the Peggy Fleming Trophy last night. If anyone finds a link to a fan cam, please post. :)
ETA (found a video filmed in 4 parts): https://www.instagram.com/p/BzR86Qll2P2/

Apparently men and women compete against each other in this "artistic free program". I wonder what are the tech rules?
I've posted a link to the rules ( http://broadmoorskatingclub.com/peggy-fleming-artistic-trophy/ ) in this post in the Broadmoor Open competition thread (ETA: Kiss & Cry section requires an account upgrade/subscription as of 6/30/19): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2019-broadmoor-open-june-25-29-peggy-fleming-trophy-6-28-aerial-challenge-6-29.105745/page-4#post-5603204

P.S. Torgashev won the Aerial Challenge jump competition & $1000 men's top prize earlier today, landing a 3A combo followed by three half loop+triple salchows+2T ("scored a little over 28 points with an 8 jump combination containing 4 triples!"), 4T and a 4S attempt (fell out on landing).
 
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shuilee

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3,479
Wow Torgashev has really improved artistically with the new program! Reminds me of Joshua Farris in his first year as a Senior international competitor. :swoon: I think I may have found a US men to uber since Farris.

Glad the judges did not undermark his PCS simply because he's less famous than the others. I quite like the new format, and I wonder if ISU should consider using it if they ever bring back "Pro-Am" competitions.
 

zebobes

Active Member
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560
Andrew’s choreography is so stunning, that I got so lost in it I completely forgot about the technical elements. I had to go back watch and purposefully watch to see if all three spins were in the program or not-it just flowed so well together, the spins disappeared.

For those who are better at identifying IJS spins, do his spins meet the requirements to get level four? One of the spins is surprisingly short, but he does these outrageous butterflies (I think that’s what they’re called?), I was wondering if he managed to meet the requirements in a super creative way, or if he will need to adjust the spins for regular competition. Does anyone know?
 

Tavi

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Andrew’s choreography is so stunning, that I got so lost in it I completely forgot about the technical elements. I had to go back watch and purposefully watch to see if all three spins were in the program or not-it just flowed so well together, the spins disappeared.

For those who are better at identifying IJS spins, do his spins meet the requirements to get level four? One of the spins is surprisingly short, but he does these outrageous butterflies (I think that’s what they’re called?), I was wondering if he managed to meet the requirements in a super creative way, or if he will need to adjust the spins for regular competition. Does anyone know?
The rules for a Peggy Fleming Trophy program are a bit different to rules for an IJS SP, and required spins are different:

3 Spins (minimum of 6 revolutions for each spin):

1 spin in one position (can fly and change feet)

1 combination spin with a minimum of one change of foot (can fly)

1 creative spin of choice

 

Firedancer

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1,252
What a great program for Andrew! And his skating skills are just fantastic. Also, great choreography for Camden. I love both of their skating and hope both of them can get more consistency in their jumps this season.
 

Debbie S

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11,251
Andrew's first spin looks L4, I'm not sure if the flying sit would be called 3 or 4. The butterflies may be a choreo move...I believe the program had to be shortened somewhat to meet the rules of the PFT, so he likely has another spin at the end, or perhaps he watered down that other spin for maximum choreo effect. The emphasis in this comp was artistry/choreo, so I would assume any competitive programs performed were not as we would see them in a regular IJS comp.

ETA: Thanks for posting the spin rules, @Tavi!
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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7,817
I'm obsessed with the turns that Andrew does going into the 2A. I wonder if he'll keep those before his 3A in the regular SP version. He's always had a wonky entrance into his Axel, so I'm all for anything that can help him get it more consistent.

Both his and Camden's programs are stunning!
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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1,166
Um, what Andrew Torgashev has everyone else been watching to think that this is such a dramatic artistic improvement?:confused:

This program reminded me so much of his FS to Roxanne, which he has been skating for two years now. The step sequence in that program is stunning.

As a semi-long time fan, I think everyone should get on the Andrew T. train, but be forewarned it may be a bumpy ride. Great one comp, the next, a struggle. I'd love for that to be done, but I'll believe it when I see it.

And of course, as a longer time (but not by much:)) Jason fan, any comp where Jason and Andrew T. finish one two is (y).
 

aftershocks

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Um, what Andrew Torgashev has everyone else been watching to think that this is such a dramatic artistic improvement?:confused:

This program reminded me so much of his FS to Roxanne, which he has been skating for two years now. The step sequence in that program is stunning.

As a semi-long time fan, I think everyone should get on the Andrew T. train, but be forewarned it may be a bumpy ride. Great one comp, the next, a struggle. I'd love for that to be done, but I'll believe it when I see it.

And of course, as a longer time (but not by much:)) Jason fan, any comp where Jason and Andrew T. finish one two is (y).
I agree that early season competitions are not indicative of how a skater will fare over the course of a season. But this program by Andrew definitely shows growth, confidence and maturity. While Andrew has always been a lovely artistic skater with wonderful skating skills, he has previously lacked confidence and competitive consistency.

It has benefited Andrew to stop being coached by his parents. That type of situation doesn't always work for everyone. In terms of his confidence, I think it became very difficult for Andrew when he struggled coming back from an ankle injury several seasons ago. It must have been a tough readjustment process, coupled by loss of momentum, particularly following the high hopes of winning junior Nationals in 2015. He had unfortunately fractured his ankle later that off-season. Subsequently, he also had a bit of difficulty incorporating the 3-axel. In his comeback, he was likely dealing with self-imposed high expectations, added to expectations by his parents, fans, and federation. All of that and going through a difficult maturation phase can lead to self-doubts.

Just as you say, Andrew has shown brilliance in past seasons' performances but he tended to falter technically in one program or the other, so developing competitive consistency will be an ongoing challenge. Still, let's give credit where it's due! The confidence and mature presence Andrew exhibits in this early season special performance may not be something to crow about prematurely, but it's definitely something to admire, to congratulate, and to simply enjoy at this stage of his career. It's not out of line to hope that it presages the beginning of a new and exciting chapter for Andrew! :encore:

Wow Torgashev has really improved artistically with the new program!
As @el henry has observed, Andrew has always been gifted artistically, and blessed with great skating skills too. The real difference I think we are seeing in this latest performance, is in maturity, confidence-level, and overall growth as a person and an athlete. He was always good with musical interpretation, but this program takes it up a notch. :) Added to that, Andrew choreographed it himself, another sign of confidence and maturity, as well as huge talent that he's always possessed.
 
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aftershocks

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Bringing this conversation over here from U.S. ladies thread, because it's about Nathan Chen. @vesperholly was responding to a conversation about Nathan's artistry, which was very much on display during his 2015 Junior Worlds performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTUs71GEPc

The initial conversation on this topic with different posters can be found in the U.S. ladies thread OT. And in the past, there's also been some discussion of this great junior fp in Nathan's fan thread.

There's a reason I always like Nathan's SPs more than his FS - he has space for choreography and expression when he's limited in the jumping. Can he have good artistry? Absolutely. Does he drop a lot of it to cram in quads? Definitely.
And there's no doubt we know the reason why that occurs. At least, the rules have been changed to encourage more focus on artistry (but rules changes are always a work-in-progress). Meanwhile, it's not Nathan's fault that he's focused on giving the sport what it demands in order for him to win. He's also showing creativity as much as he can, where he can within reason, since as we know, quads take up a great deal of mental and physical energy.
 

Tavi

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I’m not sure what your point is. Nathan isn’t a victim here. He made a conscious choice to focus on jumps at the expense of other things because he wants to win. I don’t think he deserves extra credit for trying to show a little “artistry” despite having to contend with all those big, bad quads, any more than we give extra credit to guys who land quads in practice but not in competition.
 

aftershocks

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I’m not sure what your point is. Nathan isn’t a victim here. He made a conscious choice to focus on jumps at the expense of other things because he wants to win. I don’t think he deserves extra credit for trying to show a little “artistry” despite having to contend with all those big, bad quads, any more than we give extra credit to guys who land quads in practice but not in competition.
:lol: Who said anything about Nathan being a victim! :p Are you just trying to drum up a useless argument or what? :drama:

Of course he made a 'conscious choice,' based on what the sport has demanded in this current climate. Obviously, the sport rewards jump difficulty. Nathan is a talented jumper and he loves to jump, and he wants to win! So he focused heavily on mastering quad revolutions, which necessarily takes focus and energy away from choreo and aesthetics. That does not mean he has no artistic chops, which is the point of showing people who denigrate that aspect of his skating, what Nathan has done in the past with a gorgeous, artistic competitive program as a junior. Note the enormous praise by the CBC commentators, including Kurt Browning, who knows whereof he speaks. For that matter, no one should be ignoring what Nathan has been able to accomplish creatively as a senior.

At junior Worlds in 2015, Nathan was still learning jump mastery and he needed to develop more power, which obviously happened. He currently continues to possess musicality and his own unique grace and creativity, so he's not ignoring aesthetics. He just can't spend the time he might wish on aesthetics, particularly in his fps, because he must heavily focus on the jumps to build enough points to win. What do fans want these skaters to do? Stop with the complaining and criticizing already! That's my point.

Who said squirt about giving Nathan 'extra credit'? Just give him due credit, or stop talking about him altogether. :rolleyes:
 

Tavi

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:lol: Who said anything about Nathan being a victim! :p Are you just trying to drum up a useless argument or what? :drama:

Of course he made a 'conscious choice,' based on what the sport has demanded in this current climate. Obviously, the sport rewards jump difficulty. Nathan is a talented jumper and he loves to jump, and he wants to win! So he focused heavily on mastering quad revolutions, which necessarily takes focus and energy away from choreo and aesthetics. That does not mean he has no artistic chops, which is the point of showing people who denigrate that aspect of his skating, what Nathan has done in the past with a gorgeous, artistic competitive program as a junior. Note the enormous praise by the CBC commentators, including Kurt Browning, who knows whereof he speaks. For that matter, no one should be ignoring what Nathan has been able to accomplish creatively as a senior.

At junior Worlds in 2015, Nathan was still learning jump mastery and he needed to develop more power, which obviously happened. He currently continues to possess musicality and his own unique grace and creativity, so he's not ignoring aesthetics. He just can't spend the time he might wish on aesthetics, particularly in his fps, because he must heavily focus on the jumps to build enough points to win. What do fans want these skaters to do? Stop with the complaining and criticizing already! That's my point.

Who said squirt about giving Nathan 'extra credit'? Just give him due credit, or stop talking about him altogether. :rolleyes:
Please stop with the eye rolls and don’t tell me what I should or shouldn’t talk about.
 

aftershocks

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Sure. But maybe you could be reasonable about not introducing negativity involving 'victimization' and 'extra credit' that no one but you has made up and brought here out of left field. Thank you.


I actually came to this thread earlier today to talk about something positive, not to engage in back-and-forth bickering. I really do not understand why we can't relax and be happy for the skaters, and share positive thoughts about some of the programs we are looking forward to seeing this coming season, instead of falling into inane and useless arguments over nothing.
 

Tavi

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@aftershocks, this is not Nathan’s fan thread, so I’m not sure why you posted here expecting only positive comments about Nathan.

In my opinion, by using the phrase “it’s not Nathan’s fault,” you position him as a victim. Also in my opinion, by writing, “He’s also showing creativity as much as he can can, where he can within reason, since as we know, quads take up a great deal of mental and physical energy,” you’re positioning him as someone who deserves an A for effort. Whether or not that’s what you intended, that’s what your post conveyed to me.

As to the rest of it, I would say that responding to a comment you disagree with by going on the attack, using emojis that convey sarcasm, and accusing me of complaining and criticizing - when in fact I did neither - is perhaps not the best way to encourage “positive” conversation. That’s really all I have to say.
 

vesperholly

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Meanwhile, it's not Nathan's fault that he's focused on giving the sport what it demands in order for him to win.
It's not the system's fault either. Nathan chooses to focus on quads. That's his prerogative. He could skate programs with more artistry and performance if he wanted to, and maybe not win, but he doesn't. That's certainly his choice, but I don't have to like it or think that the current scoring system forced him to do it that way. And for what it's worth, I felt his junior program was just OK in terms of artistry, not some shining beacon of budding creative genius.

I actually came to this thread earlier today to talk about something positive, not to engage in back-and-forth bickering. I really do not understand why we can't relax and be happy for the skaters, and share positive thoughts about some of the programs we are looking forward to seeing this coming season, instead of falling into inane and useless arguments over nothing.
I don't know that "inane and useless" is what's happening, but if you want nothing but sunshine and light, stick to the fan threads. There's nothing wrong with critical analysis of skaters and their programs, not all of which is going to be positive.
 

jlai

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I do think the scoring is problematic though, in the sense that the pcs is more or less not worth the effort compared to the technical component. Do the tes and your pcs will go up to within 5-7 points of Hanyu and then you can make up the difference in technical marks.

But yeah, Nathan is a Math guy, he will always find the best way to win mathematically. If PCS is worth more, I'm sure he'll math his way to medal too.
 

Tavi

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1,816
Perhaps posters could take personal feuds to PM. :saint:
I’m actually not interested in feuding with anyone.

In the interests of returning to the subject of this thread:

US Figure Skating just made a nearly 3 minute video about Camden Pulkinen. This Instagram post contains a brief excerpt (full link on their Instagram TV). Anyone know if this is part of a series or if they’ve done one on Tomoki, Alexei, Andrew T, or other rising stars? I’m kinda curious as to why it was made:


Thoughts? Does this replace “we get up,” or whatever their last campaign was, or is it something else?

ETA USFS just posted this brief video about Vincent, but it is stylistically quite different from the one with Camden:

 
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aftershocks

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@vesperholly, I will respond in Nathan's fan thread to your earlier post addressing my comments about Nathan. (BTW, my comments in post #138 were not intended to further arguments, nor to engage in 'feuds,' quite the opposite.)

It's summer and the weather has been rather unseasonably pleasant in my neck of the woods. I'm wishing the skaters and all the fans well, and I'm hoping misunderstandings can dissipate. There's no need to take offense at differences of opinion, but I do think it's important to try and clarify mischaracterizations and/or misreadings.
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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US Figure Skating just made a nearly 3 minute video about Camden Pulkinen. This Instagram post contains a brief excerpt (full link on their Instagram TV). Anyone know if this is part of a series or if they’ve done one on Tomoki, Alexei, Andrew T, or other rising stars? I’m kinda curious as to why it was made
"Portrait of a Skater - Camden Pulkinen" also was posted on USFS' YT channel on July 9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY2GUozR6sU
I don't know if there will be similar videos forthcoming.
USFS just posted this brief video about Vincent, but it is stylistically quite different from the one with Camden:
Vincent's "Moments of the Season" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irn38cPz-Ak ) is embedded in this July 11th article about him (more to come in the August/September issue of SKATING magazine): https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/news/2019/7/11/figure-skating-ever-searching-for-more-zhou-takes-on-new-challenge.aspx
 

Katesk8sgr8s

New Member
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"Portrait of a Skater - Camden Pulkinen" also was posted on USFS' YT channel on July 9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY2GUozR6sU
I don't know if there will be similar videos forthcoming.

Vincent's "Moments of the Season" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irn38cPz-Ak ) is embedded in this July 11th article about him (more to come in the August/September issue of SKATING magazine): https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/news/2019/7/11/figure-skating-ever-searching-for-more-zhou-takes-on-new-challenge.aspx
thank you for posting this!
 

aftershocks

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Dick Button will turn 90 this Thursday. :cheer2: :respec: It's also marks the day before* the anniversary of Denis Ten's shocking death last July. :( :saint:

I wonder whether USFS will give a shout out to Button? Uncle Dick should be celebrated more and lauded more often for his contributions before he's gone. I wonder if his family is planning a party for him? Does anyone know how Dick is doing these days? He's active on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PushDicksButton

ETA:
I see @Sylvia has revived the old Dick Button 'auction of his skating collection' thread, so I posted there about his upcoming milestone b'day as well. Perhaps on the day, we can start a new thread here congratulating Dick for his contributions and his amazing longevity!


*as corrected for accuracy by greenapple in the Dick Button thread
 
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Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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58,011
The Glacier Falls Summer Classic club competition (Thursday, July 18 through Sunday, July 21) recently changed venues from their usual rink in Anaheim to Great Park Ice & FivePoint Arena in Irvine, California (as announced in the competition thread in the Kiss & Cry section): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2019-glacier-falls-summer-classic-venue-moved.105783/

For those who can't access the Kiss & Cry, some of the notable U.S. men registered for the competition include (SENIOR): Sean Rabbitt, Ryan Dunk, Joonsoo Kim, Emmanuel Savary, Paul Yeung; (JUNIOR): Max Lake, Eric Sjoberg, Goku Endo, Liam Kapeikis.
 

Willin

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2,046
Can't say I'm surprised they changed venues given the trajectory of figure skating at the anaheim rink over the past few years (influential skating director leaving, synchro program downsizing big time, figure skating ice time scrapped for hockey, etc.) and given how obsessed USFS is with the Irvine rink, but I'm still surprised it's such a last minute change.
 

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