U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[her grace]

Given [the] calendar a very strong argument can be made that at least some, if not all, U.S. and Canadian skaters likely to be used for the Team, Paris, and Men's events, at the very least, should be expected (or required) to participate in Four Continents and then train with their Olympic Teams.

The alternative is to send skaters with no realistic prospect of making the Olympic Team, even as substitutes, on transoceanic flights two weeks before the Olympics start. One could just as easily say that that is a ridiculous use of the Federations' members' money.

I disagree. Two weeks before the Olympics, the Olympic team should be training, not competing at 4CC. The events are too close together, not to mention that the Olympics already requires more stamina than usual with the addition of the team event.

The U.S. doesn't have to send athletes who are not subs; USFS sent the literal B team in 2014. I don't think Hubbell/Donohue's gold over Gilles/Poirier was a waste of the federations' money. Sending our next generation of dance teams this time isn't going to be a waste either. Sending our 2-4th best pairs teams isn't a waste. I'm not going to attempt to predict who the ladies and men's 4CC teams would be, but it's quite possible that it will be a mix of new talent who need championship experience and exposure and those who have competed for years for the U.S. and deserve to have a swan song final big international event. To me, that's a better use of the federations' money than wearing out the Olympic team right before the biggest event of their lives.

 

[insideedgeua]

Isn't US Figure Skating already planning for those athletes wanting to stay in Asia between 4CC and the Olympics?

Before 4CC Alexa, Chris, Jason and a number of other posted photos from their training rink at Chuncheon. I thought that was because it would be the Team USA base between the two events in 2018.

That said, I think a lot of athletes will decline 4CC if they are going to the Olympics.

Things could go either way, go to 4CC and then head to Chuncheon in Korea to train, staying in the same time zone. Or skip 4CC, giving the next tier of athletes a chance. Both are good options.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Boy that is a tough call strategy wise. You have injury & embarrassing placements v. more time between you and that long long flight to Asia.

 

[kwanfan1818]

For Sochi and IIRC Vancouver, USFS, and at least for Sochi, Skate Canada made the call not to send any Olympic-bound athletes to 4C's.

It spreads around experience and championship points for WS. In G/P's case, it earned them enough points to be in the "skating later" group, where they drew late, and while they didn't make the Olympic team, they were never behind Paul/Islam again.

 

[DimaToe]

If you have an athlete you need to get some more experience into (like Karen Chen this year) it might be wise for USFS to try and use 4CC to get some competitive nerves out of some athletes, but it's really close to the olympics, so when it comes to athletes like Wagner and the ice dance teams, I think it wouldn't be worth sending them there.

 

[berthesghost]

Mo comps, mo problems lol

Baiul could count every isu comp she did on one hand, delivered two programs with errors and still skated away with it all.

GPF, 4CC, team challenge... So many comps now, do they each really have to do them all?

 

[Vagabond]

So many comps now, do they each really have to do them all?

Well, no. Despite what I've posted in this thread, I think that skaters should in general be able to decline assignments, provided that they don't do ice shows and the like instead. I don't think it would necessarily be unreasonable, however, for the USFSA to use 4CC's as a skateoff for some of its Olympic or World spots.

 

[overedge]

Going back into the mists of ancient history, IIRC the original intent was that 4CCs and Euros would eventually serve as part of the qualifications for Worlds. But now there is the minimum score standard that seems to serve the function of keeping out the less skilled skaters that the ISU doesn't seem to think should get to go to Worlds (I do, but that's a separate argument).

Other than act as sort of a Euros-for-the-rest-of-the-world, I honestly don't see 4CCs serving much of a function. And as the comments in this thread indicate, in Olympic years scheduling it along with the GP events and the GPF, plus each country's Nationals, is a pain in the butt. I would sooner the ISU cancelled it and put all its energies into the GP events, and maybe have some sort of once-every-four-years special GP event in the Olympic venue the year before the games.

 

[Yazmeen]

Going back into the mists of ancient history, IIRC the original intent was that 4CCs and Euros would eventually serve as part of the qualifications for Worlds. But now there is the minimum score standard that seems to serve the function of keeping out the less skilled skaters that the ISU doesn't seem to think should get to go to Worlds (I do, but that's a separate argument).

Other than act as sort of a Euros-for-the-rest-of-the-world, I honestly don't see 4CCs serving much of a function. And as the comments in this thread indicate, in Olympic years scheduling it along with the GP events and the GPF, plus each country's Nationals, is a pain in the butt. I would sooner the ISU cancelled it and put all its energies into the GP events, and maybe have some sort of once-every-four-years special GP event in the Olympic venue the year before the games.

Was 4CCs supposed to function as sort of a replacement for what was "North Americans" years ago (which was biennial and only include the US and Canada)? Meaning they added in non-European nations other than US/Canada, essentially a competition to serve for the other nations what Europeans does?

An interesting example: 4CCs started in 1999. Michelle Kwan never competed at any one of them in her career, during her run of 7 straight US national championships.

 

[mag]

I can see some value in having a post Nationals competition for the top three skaters from each country who are not attending worlds. Maybe there would be some sort of minimum tech score, but a guarantee that every one got to send a minimum of one skater. It is so much more expensive for non European skaters to get experience as most Sr B comps are held in Europe. There would be some economies of scale for say, the Australian fed to send a full team to compete. Also, they wouldn't be going up against the Tessa and Scott's or Medvedeva's of skating so while there is competition, there is also the chance of success.

I could see this also helping developing feds who don't have skaters who can meet the minimums but still need to have some exposure to build their programs.

 

[jiejie]

4CC's provides valuable World Standings points opportunities for those who are not Olympics (or Worlds-bound). "Sharing the wealth" of major post-Nationals competition spots is IMO one of the bright sides of an Olympic year.

 

[topaz]

LOL, Ashley has not committed to skating to LaLa land. I don't think she's going to skate to the music.

 

[honey]

Isn't US Figure Skating already planning for those athletes wanting to stay in Asia between 4CC and the Olympics?

Before 4CC Alexa, Chris, Jason and a number of other posted photos from their training rink at Chuncheon. I thought that was because it would be the Team USA base between the two events in 2018.

I had thought they planned to use it as a training facility prior to and also after the games have started. There is a lot of time between the team event and the women's individual event for example, and often people like to get out of town for a few days to avoid tiring themselves out from excitement. In Sochi the 3 US women flew to Austria IIRC after the team event/opening ceremonies and trained there for a few days before returning. Skate Canada did something similar and sent their two women to Germany for a little bit.

I do not think we will see anyone on the olympic team from the US doing 4CC.

 

[overedge]

@mag I agree with the idea of some post-Nationals competition for the skaters needing the minimum or needing some experience as up and comers. I'm just not convinced that 4CCs is the best format or timing to accomplish that, particularly as the ISU seems to be expecting the "name" skaters to go.

 

[mag]

@mag I agree with the idea of some post-Nationals competition for the skaters needing the minimum or needing some experience as up and comers. I'm just not convinced that 4CCs is the best format or timing to accomplish that, particularly as the ISU seems to be expecting the "name" skaters to go.

I agree that maybe 4CC's is not the place. I just think it would be nice to have something although timing is tricky.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The ISU does not expect the name skaters from the US and Canada to show for 4C's in the Olympic year, nor do the hosts bidding on 4C's, just like those who bid on post-Olympics Worlds no longer expect the Olympics winners or even all of the podium to show. They bid on the pre-Olympic Worlds because they know there are spots on the line, and skaters have to show, if they're able.

 

[shuilee]

Christine Brennan reporting Ashley already picked her SP and LP music next year.

SP: Hip Hip Chin Chin
LP: La La Land

"To that end, Wagner said she already has chosen her music for her Olympic year programs. For the short program, she’s returning to what helped her win the world silver medal last year — the upbeat Hip Hip Chin Chin — and for her long program, it’s La La Land."


I really hope this is #fakenews about "La La Land". Don't really like any of the songs from that movie at all. argh. Ashley's my fave, but I fear this could be like 2014 when she has to dump her LP in middle of the season.

 

[Frida80]

Christine Brennan reporting Ashley already picked her SP and LP music next year.

SP: Hip Hip Chin Chin
LP: La La Land

"To that end, Wagner said she already has chosen her music for her Olympic year programs. For the short program, she’s returning to what helped her win the world silver medal last year — the upbeat Hip Hip Chin Chin — and for her long program, it’s La La Land."


I really hope this is #fakenews about "La La Land". Don't really like any of the songs from that movie at all. argh. Ashley's my fave, but I fear this could be like 2014 when she has to dump her LP in middle of the season.

I haven't listened to the sound track, but it cannot be worse than Winner Takes it All.

 

[Spun Silver]

I haven't listened to the sound track, but it cannot be worse that Winner Takes it All.

Shouldn't the bar be a bit higher than that?

 

[Frida80]

Shouldn't the bar be a bit higher than that?

It should.

 

[VGThuy]

I would love it if Ashley stuck to the instrumental tracks from La La Land because I think those pieces outshine the songs. However, knowing Ashley, she'll probably need to play a character who sings throughout to make it easier for her to interpret the music.

Another American lady should skate to the Moonlight soundtrack, .

 

[Spun Silver]

Another American lady should skate to the Moonlight soundtrack, .

Maybe Karen.

 

[Mayra]

Maybe Karen.

Not enough of a warhorse for Karen.

 

[VGThuy]

Not enough of a warhorse for Karen.

Who knows, I have a feeling that deep down she's the artsy kind deep down given her SP and exhibition and her inconsistency.

 

[overedge]

The ISU does not expect the name skaters from the US and Canada to show for 4C's in the Olympic year

Not formally, as in, show up or you don't get to go the Olympics, no. But OTOH the ISU or a host committee is not going to stage an event with no "name" skaters to draw attention and $$$$.

 

[berthesghost]

I don't think it would necessarily be unreasonable, however, for the USFSA to use 4CC's as a skateoff for some of its Olympic or World spots.

i don't get the idea of a skate off. It seems to me either they use nats results to determine the team, or they use the results of the entire past season to select the team. But not using nats to pick the US team, and then using the results of an isu event elsewhere where only 2 or 3 eligible skaters are there seems weird to me.

But OTOH the ISU or a host committee is not going to stage an event with no "name" skaters to draw attention and $$$$.

and yet they put on several such events every year on the regular.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I would love it if Ashley stuck to the instrumental tracks from La La Land because I think those pieces outshine the songs. However, knowing Ashley, she'll probably need to play a character who sings throughout to make it easier for her to interpret the music.

Eys. Skate to the Epilogue, since it already does the cutting for you.

I would hazard that she includes Audition. I see her feeling a connection to the lyrics.

She'll probably just skate to City of Stars.

 

[millyskate]

Christine Brennan reporting Ashley already picked her SP and LP music next year.

SP: Hip Hip Chin Chin
LP: La La Land

"To that end, Wagner said she already has chosen her music for her Olympic year programs. For the short program, she’s returning to what helped her win the world silver medal last year — the upbeat Hip Hip Chin Chin — and for her long program, it’s La La Land."


I really hope this is #fakenews about "La La Land". Don't really like any of the songs from that movie at all. argh. Ashley's my fave, but I fear this could be like 2014 when she has to dump her LP in middle of the season.

It's not fakenews, Ashley mentioned she wanted to skate to La La Land as soon as the film came out.

 

[Vagabond]

i don't get the idea of a skate off. It seems to me either they use nats results to determine the team, or they use the results of the entire past season to select the team. But not using nats to pick the US team, and then using the results of an isu event elsewhere where only 2 or 3 eligible skaters are there seems weird to me.

It seems to me that how a skater does at an ISU Championship two or three weeks before the Olympics is more indicative of how that skater would do at the Olympics than how that skater performs at an early-season Grand Prix or the previous season's Nationals would be. :shrug:

 

[berthesghost]

It seems to me that how a skater does at an ISU Championship two or three weeks before the Olympics is more indicative of how that skater would do at the Olympics than how that skater performs at an early-season Grand Prix or the previous season's Nationals would be. :shrug:

As usual, skating holds no guarantees. Was 4cc indicative of how the Canadian and US ladies would do in Helsinki? 50/50 I'd say. What about GPF and its historic data of not really predicting world podium results? For Jin, worlds a year ago fortold more than anything from this season.