Trusova breaks 100 in TES.

Tony Wheeler

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Well... people argue that ISU doesn't want to do it because it would hurt a lot of skaters since basically A LOT of them do this.

I don't know. I think the amount of vitriol against prerotation is in a lot of cases (not all) just an excuse to hate on certain skaters (not necessarily Russian)...
I just want fully-rotated jumps to be rewarded and those skaters constantly getting away with doing 2 or 2.25 rotations on every single triple they attempt (not even factoring the newer quad jumpers) to be penalized accordingly. During the 2013 or 2014 season I was really starting to get on Ashley Wagner's case about her pre-rotating (and under-rotating) the hell out of her 3T in her combos as an example.

For me, it doesn't matter where any skater is from or whether I like their skating PCS-wise or not (see Miyahara, I adore everything about her overall skating). But there are so many other nuances within the rules that are so technical- I don't see why severe pre-rotation shouldn't be treated the same way. I guarantee some skaters are doing triple flips that have MORE rotation off the ice than Uno's quad flips. And that's absolutely insane that he gets the points plus positive GOE's.
 

muffinplus

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At 41 seconds in this excellent video, she's already past the half-way point of one rotation. The video, which I had not seen, also seems to suggest she was right around 2/3 of the way around on the rotation before getting off the ice. The frozen frame at 38-39 seconds is where 1/2 would be.

Are you looking at her picking foot? If yes, again, how can you tell the angle from a 2D rendering. There is no way 0:38 can be half rotation. Her body is facing the blue ad... if it was a 1/2, on takeoff you could draw a diagonal along the angle of take off to that blue ad... if anything you can draw a diagonal along the angle of take off to the read ad.




Anyways, I think this video is terrible... from the inaccurate throwing around typical bs terms like "full blade" Just a second Koola King account indeed
 
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muffinplus

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I guarantee some skaters are doing triple flips that have MORE rotation off the ice than Uno's quad flips. And that's absolutely insane that he gets the points plus positive GOE's.
I'm sure that's the case with some skaters... I just don't see it here. 🤷 It's not great but it's not to the levels that it should be downgraded to a triple... or that you can tell with certainty. Sorry, this has gotten off topic again
 

MAXSwagg

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Okay fine let’s say they are fully rotated quads. Give the full base value. But you cannot seriously say that the technique and quality are anywhere near that of Boyang Jin, Nathan Chen, etc. Or am I being sexist by comparing them to men, as several people have been accused of being (though not here (yet))? :rolleyes:

Of course, as has been mentioned, many men do this as well. And no, I was not at those competitions but since the thread is about Trusova anyway, I was at Skate Canada and many of the quads she attempted both in practices and in the competition were pre-rotated. For several of the events, I happened to be sitting next to a former skater and retired coach and she agreed also. Though maybe she is not an expert. I also know a person who is involved in her country’s developing federation and has spoken to several technical specialists at ISU seminars; some think it is an issue, others do not but this is not an issue that people are just pulling out of their rear.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Okay fine let’s say they are fully rotated quads. Give the full base value. But you cannot seriously say that the technique and quality are anywhere near that of Boyang Jin, Nathan Chen, etc. Or am I being sexist by comparing them to men, as several people have been accused of being (though not here (yet))? :rolleyes:

Of course, as has been mentioned, many men do this as well. And no, I was not at those competitions but since the thread is about Trusova anyway, I was at Skate Canada and many of the quads she attempted both in practices and in the competition were pre-rotated. For several of the events, I happened to be sitting next to a former skater and retired coach and she agreed also. Though maybe she is not an expert. I also know a person who is involved in her country’s developing federation and has spoken to several technical specialists at ISU seminars; some think it is an issue, others do not but this is not an issue that people are just pulling out of their rear.
People (myself included) have been on Uno’s case with his 4F ever since he started attempting it. I commented recently on the twisting pre-rotation Rizzo has on his triple Lutz and flip. This is not a ladies-specific issue. It just comes down to people getting pissed when their favorites/skaters from their country get analyzed so in-depth.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
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And as @MAXSwagg points out "some [technical specialists] think it is an issue, others do not" (emphasis mine)

If the people running the sport don't agree that this is an issue, then picking on a particular skater for doing it (rather than discussing the issue in general) in a way that makes it seem like they are not meeting the requirements (i.e., cheating somehow) for the jump, is not fair. They are meeting the requirements for the jump as they are laid out in today's rules.
 

briancoogaert

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At 41 seconds in this excellent video, she's already past the half-way point of one rotation. The video, which I had not seen, also seems to suggest she was right around 2/3 of the way around on the rotation before getting off the ice. The frozen frame at 38-39 seconds is where 1/2 would be.
And in the video, her 4Lz's take off is almost a Loop's take off.
 

Tony Wheeler

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And in the video, her 4Lz's take off is almost a Loop's take off.
Absolutely. Once the toe pick goes in sideways and the entire blade drops down, it really isn't a toe jump anymore as she is applying pressure from further back on the blade (the edge).
 

Tony Wheeler

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And as @MAXSwagg points out "some [technical specialists] think it is an issue, others do not" (emphasis mine)

If the people running the sport don't agree that this is an issue, then picking on a particular skater for doing it (rather than discussing the issue in general) in a way that makes it seem like they are not meeting the requirements (i.e., cheating somehow) for the jump, is not fair. They are meeting the requirements for the jump as they are laid out in today's rules.
Discussing the technique behind a jump is not, to me, 'picking on' a skater. Technique is discussed throughout sports. And 'meeting the requirements for a jump' isn't really the best wording, because the exact descriptions of each jump are given. Rotating on the edge for 1/2 of a turn after picking in sideways is not in the description of a Lutz, I guarantee you that.

But yes, AFAIK the technical panel is only allowed to call pre-rotation in realtime, which differs from the landing cleanliness as they are allowed to review this in slo-mo. This 100% needs to be changed, and I'm hoping for it to happen in the 2020 Congress.

Think about it (and I've already used this example)- imagine being a high-level skater that learned how to do a perfectly technically sound 4T (for me, that means more than 3.75 rotations off the ice) and only getting maybe a point more than skater B who turns on the blade 1/2 of a rotation or more, doesn't even take off correctly, and lands under-rotated? I used the Uno example before as well. 100% certain that he's doing the same amount of rotation off the ice as most people do in a normal 3F. So why should he get more than two times the points for his attempts?

If these things aren't discussed, they aren't going to change. In such a technically magnified sport, I don't see why it shouldn't be discussed in-depth. And to do that, you need examples.
 
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muffinplus

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Absolutely. Once the toe pick goes in sideways and the entire blade drops down, it really isn't a toe jump anymore as she is applying pressure from further back on the blade (the edge).
How can it be a loop take off when edge is on ice for loop.. blade drops down but it's not on ice

I noticed Sakamoto also has similar takeoff on her 3 flip ( blade drops). I never noticed anyone talking about it extensively though...
 

Tony Wheeler

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How can it be a loop take off when edge is on ice for loop.. blade drops down but it's not on ice

I noticed Sakamoto also has similar takeoff on her 3 flip ( blade drops). I never noticed anyone talking about it extensively though...
Sakamoto turns way too much on the toe pick on the flip too (just about 1/2 a rotation). Miyahara is turning almost a full rotation on her 3T back-half of her combo as well as her 3Lo. Medvedeva turns 1/2 a rotation on her 3F and 3T. Tennell has minimal pre-rotation on her Lutz but then turns at least 3/4 of a rotation on her 3T in that combo (very Ashley Wagner-type techique). I can keep going if you need any other countries fulfilled.

It's widespread, and should be called as such.
 

muffinplus

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Sakamoto turns way too much on the toe pick on the flip too (just about 1/2 a rotation). Miyahara is turning almost a full rotation on her 3T back-half of her combo as well as her 3Lo. Medvedeva turns 1/2 a rotation on her 3F and 3T. Tennell has minimal pre-rotation on her Lutz but then turns at least 3/4 of a rotation on her 3T in that combo (very Ashley Wagner-type techique). I can keep going if you need any other countries fulfilled.

It's widespread, and should be called as such.
I wasn't directing my comment on Sakamoto at you necessarily... I just meant in general you hear these things ( re pretotation/full blade etc) comments the most about Eteri students at least on the women's side.
 

bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
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Good grief ... Anybody can under rotate.

Now can we compare Ann's program components to Jin's :2faced: Those are much more stable from program to program.

... Regarding Uno, I claim credit for the term "Floop".
 

Marco

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How can it be a loop take off when edge is on ice for loop.. blade drops down but it's not on ice

I noticed Sakamoto also has similar takeoff on her 3 flip ( blade drops). I never noticed anyone talking about it extensively though...
Kwan used to be criticised for this on her lutz back in the days.
 

Tinami Amori

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Since this is Trusova's topic... :lol:

Sasha in Canada, running to the Pet Shop to buy her doggy Tina more clothes.

Channel #1 interview just came out, Sasha's visit to Skate America recap. nothing new re info (happy to skate, more work to be done), but more dog-toys shopping towards the end and lots of visuals.
 

Tak

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There is one aspect which has not been touched on, but I consider this practice to be a borderline cheat, since this practice runs counter to "Well-Rounded Skating". I would like to relate something Midori Ito wrote around 1992.
"With the pressure mounting to land the triple Axel, Midori became more and more desperate. She requested that her edge sharpener to sharpen the Left Outside edge, all the time. He complied a number of times, but then one day he refused. He told her that "If I sharpen the outside edge any further, I will be creating "unbalanced edges". This may help you do the Axel, but it will be detrimental for other skating moves." Since this gent looked after her edges for a long time, Midori thanked the sharpener and she did not request any further sharpening of the Left Outside edge..."
This is why I consider same level of difficulty Salchow (LBI) must be matched with Axels(LFO) and Lutzes(LBO). Compared with high profile Axels and Lutzes, Salchow is low on the jumping totem-pole. However, because this jump is totally dependent on the inside edge, any skater using unbalanced edges, which usually emphasize the outside edge, will find it difficult to execute this jump. Admittedly there are toe jumpers and edge jumpers. Probably toe jumpers have more difficult time landing Salchows, loops and Axels.
Last season, a prominent male skater who was renowned for his secure quad Sal (ISU used his quad Salchow as an example of perfect quad), suddenly had problems landing quad Sal. Considering his stated ambition to land the FIRST quad Axel, I could not help myself wondering if he may be using unbalanced edges.
In this regard, I really do appreciate Trusova for including quad toe, Lutz and that all important Salchow, in her program.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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Since this is Trusova's topic... :lol:

Sasha in Canada, running to the Pet Shop to buy her doggy Tina more clothes.

Channel #1 interview just came out, Sasha's visit to Skate America recap. nothing new re info (happy to skate, more work to be done), but more dog-toys shopping towards the end and lots of visuals.
She will run amok when she masters the 3A and gets a Standard Poodle. The clothes and groomer cuts will be epic.
 

Japanfan

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Sasha in Canada, running to the Pet Shop to buy her doggy Tina more clothes.
Bandit doth disapprove of dressing doggies in silly costumes. Says he doesn't want attention to be taken away from his silly, wiggly self.
 
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SmallFairy

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It’s important to remember that the salchow, toe-loop and loop are pre-rotated in nature. The flip to some extent, and the lutz pre-rotates the less.

In this very good video, Jason Brown shows all triples in real time, then in slow motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKulecXlyFs

I’m only doing singles myself, I have started working a tiny on my first double, the salchow, but when I look at this video, I see my coach instructions apply for triples as well, and I assume also quads. I apologize if I’m not able to explain this properly, I'll try my best.

The salchow take off starts backwards, on the left, inside edge, but you stay on the curve on the ice until you «snap» the left toe pick in at «the end» of the curve, It’s tricky, not to early, not too late, the more rotations, the more power you need, the longer you wait. When the snap comes, your foot and leg turns, you pull in and lift and of course your body also turns, so when the toe pick snaps and you actually leave the ice, your body is faced forwards - and you've already turned 0,5 rotation on the ice.

(So the toe pick is involved in the edge jumps too, but the toe pick on the same foot as the edge, not the opposite leg, as in the toe jumps).

In the toe loop, when the toe pick goes in, you’re almost in a pivot position. The right leg glides on the curve with the heal leading. You don’t lift until the body is forwards, which is why the toe can’t lead, then it becomes a waltz jump/axel.

The loop is somewhat similar to the salchow, as in the loop the skater also stays on the curve, here right, outside edge, and then snaps the right toe pick into something that my coach describes as a «fish hook» (that’s what the tracing should look like on the ice). When the snap comes, when you pull in and lift off the ice, you are facing forwards (like in the salchow).

The flip pre-rotates less, but it’s really important to not just slam the toe pick in and jump straight up. The toe pick goes in, and the legs glides towards each other, the knee is «open», pointing outwards, and at the same time you pull the arms in. It should be like a rubber band first stretched, then being pulled in. And when your feet meet, and your knee open, you start to lift (all this happens really, really fast). You prerorate a little, but not as much as in the three before mentioned jumps. The body position is similar to a loop, but the important difference is that the toe pick on the right foot goes in, not the entire blade.

The lutz has the same pulling in-rubber band mechanism as the flip, not slam toe pick and lift, but of course, taking off from the outside edge requires even more body strength and control, because you then have to rotate in the direction that’s not the most natural standing there on the outside curve. Since your body strength and position in the take off is so important, you don’t prerotate that much. The video of Shcherbakova vs. Jin shows that Jin does it very good, and that Shcherbakova prerotates.

Which leads me to the toe pick vs. full blade discussion. Flip, lutz and toe loop does not take off with a full blade on the ice. The clean toe pick goes in, the skater lift. Shcherbakova’s lutz in the video is very much like a loop. Especially when she pre-rotates like she does. This is not picking on one particular skater, I write about her, because this particular video was posted. I’m sure there is many more who does this. Shoma Uno’s flip is the same. (And I’m a huge fan of his). His quad flip technique is horrid. I took a screen shot during his last GP comp, and the take off is more than weird, body position and all.

https://imgur.com/gallery/xAg1BaR

This doesn't really show the full blade vs. the toe pick, it comes a little later in the take off, mostly his flip looks like a loop, but you can see how is body is all off, his legs far apart, and his arms all wrong. The right arm should stay back longer, then pull in to power up. These things should be punished as bad take off, and also pre-rotation, though this screen shot doesn't show it.


As someone pointed out, the toe pick on flip and lutz goes in in line of the left foot. Right behind, not to the side. Good coaches will correct your technique if you do, and the judges can give you -1 to -2 for bad take off, it has happened to me personally ;)

So, I think the ISU should adress the problems of pre-rotations, but we keep in mind that some jumps are pre-rotated by nature, a quad loop is really 3,5 rotation, and that’s the way it is. Boyang should get tons of credit for his quad lutz, and Anna and others who jumps like her should be punished for bad take off, and for the pre rotations.
 
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muffinplus

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Which leads me to the toe pick vs. full blade discussion. Flip, lutz and toe loop does not take off with a full blade on the ice. The clean toe pick goes in, the skater lift. Sherbakova’s lutz in the video is very much like a loop. Especially when she pre-rotates like she does. This is not picking on one particular skater, I write about her, because this particular video was posted. I’m sure there is many more who does this.
For the loop the entire blade is on the ice, right? With Shcherbakova at no point is her full blade on the ice, no? She picks and then just lets the blade drop. So how can it be a loop takeoff?
 

SmallFairy

#teamtrainwreck #teamjapan
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For the loop the entire blade is on the ice, right? With Shcherbakova at no point is her full blade on the ice, no? She picks and then just lets the blade drop. So how can it be a loop takeoff?
I didn’t write it was a loop take off completely, but that it was very much like a loop. Because, she picks, then drops her blade - so almost the entire right blade is on the ice- before she lifts. She takes off with almost the entire blade on the ice. Her skate and toe picks are going into that “fish hook” I described in my previous post. So the full blade is not on the ice for the entire take off of the loop.

Screen shot of Anna right before take off: https://imgur.com/gallery/rwgcX7I

Again, this is not about trashing Anna, I’m just using her as an examples since she was brought into the thread. I think Anna is a lovely, charming skater with lots of qualities. She really lits up the rink!
 

Tinami Amori

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At the Cup of Russia reporters from Russian Channel #1 were following top skaters around literally stuffing microphones and cameras in their faces. One was following Sasha around, recording and filming her every interaction with any person around.

When Sasha came up to a large group of fans waiting for autographs, it took a while, because there were many. But the reporter wanted to take Sasha for an interview. He kept trying to take her out of the crowd and pin a microphone on her.

Sasha finally said to him "wait until i am finished, i'll break that gadget, you're bothering me (you're in my way)"....... :biggrinbo
 

muffinplus

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3,374
At the Cup of Russia reporters from Russian Channel #1 were following top skaters around literally stuffing microphones and cameras in their faces. One was following Sasha around, recording and filming her every interaction with any person around.

When Sasha came up to a large group of fans waiting for autographs, it took a while, because there were many. But the reporter wanted to take Sasha for an interview. He kept trying to take her out of the crowd and pin a microphone on her.

Sasha finally said to him "wait until i am finished, i'll break that gadget, you're bothering me (you're in my way)"....... :biggrinbo

OMG. people on Instagram are saying she is growing up to be the second Medvedvea because of this (i.e. arrogant)... Jesus...
 

Tinami Amori

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18,342
OMG. people on Instagram are saying she is growing up to be the second Medvedvea because of this (i.e. arrogant)... Jesus...
:D
She is just annoyed with reporters following her around and practically putting cameras and microphones in her face the second she walks into the building. They don't just stand few feet away, they come within a foot of her and whoever she is with or talking to and put a microphone and camera within inches of her face and start recording her.... even when she is with her mother... :D

... and she is starting to push back...... :lol:

Video of her new dog (the boy she pushes away is her brother, not a fan).

Foto of her new dog

Sasha was given a huge dog-toy (like others are given Big Bears), and this is how she is taking it home.. :lol:
 
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