Trusova breaks 100 in TES.

lily

Active Member
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485
Most of them aren’t real quads. They do almost a full rotation on the ice before even getting in the air. It’s a mess and the GOE for these jumps should automatically be in the negatives since there’s no regulations for pre-rotation (yet).
Are you technical controller or skating coach to say it for sure? Everything else is just fan's speculations.
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
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18,601
Most of them aren’t real quads. They do almost a full rotation on the ice before even getting in the air. It’s a mess and the GOE for these jumps should automatically be in the negatives since there’s no regulations for pre-rotation (yet).
Just another lousy attempt, unsubstantiated by any proof, to discredit the success of the Russian ladies.

Why don't you help "your favorites" to do the quads at least as bad as Trusova?..... :D
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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13,350
Technical callers have absolute right to call jumps as they see them and why ando had most of her quads labeled 3S
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
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Most of them aren’t real quads. They do almost a full rotation on the ice before even getting in the air. It’s a mess and the GOE for these jumps should automatically be in the negatives since there’s no regulations for pre-rotation (yet).
:rolleyes:

I can see with my own eyes that this is patently false.
 

Tinami Amori

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18,601
Technical callers have absolute right to call jumps as they see them and why ando had most of her quads labeled 3S
Like any skater with any jumps, she sometimes lands them clean, sometimes with-in the quarter mark, sometimes UR.

When UR, yes they should be marked UR, like for any skater and any jump.
When she lands them clean or on/less than quarter mark - they are QUADS.. :lol:



 

muffinplus

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3,407
If this site was about the expert opinions it wouldn't have very many posts.
Opinions are fine, but people shouldn't present statements as FACTUAL if they are not technical experts.

Any comments on this vid that came up in one of my feeds yesterday? Comparing Scherbakova's 4Lz to Jin's.
I mean.. it's a video made by an account called Deep Outside Edge? That's all you need to know about the agenda of this account

But my non-expert OPINION- there is some fake counting going on, it counts 180 when she hasn't actually done a 180. To me it looks like she picks roughly parallel to the boards. Yet according to this video, she has already done 180 in the air at this point - https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=39 ??? Look at her body position it's not 180 from the point that she started. To the point though, she is off the ground at about 0:42, which is slightly less than 180 degrees from the starting point...
 

MacMadame

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Most of these videos cherry-pick. And don't acknowledge that the camera angle isn't exactly the same so therefore can be misleading. That said, quite a few lutzes out there are flutzes including this one from Anna. It was correctly called as such too, which will decrease the points awarded.
 

muffinplus

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Most of these videos cherry-pick. And don't acknowledge that the camera angle isn't exactly the same so therefore can be misleading. That said, quite a few lutzes out there are flutzes including this one from Anna. It was correctly called as such too, which will decrease the points awarded.
It's not just the flutz...they want to discredit her lutz by saying she does 3/4 of it on the ice, so it shouldn't be called as a quad.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
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I know but in her video, the angle is such that I found it impossible to know where exactly her feet were in relation to the ice. That's what I mean by both cherry-picking and also not acknowledging that the camera angle plays a crucial role.
 

muffinplus

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I know but in her video, the angle is such that I found it impossible to know where exactly her feet were in relation to the ice. That's what I mean by both cherry-picking and also not acknowledging that the camera angle plays a crucial role.
It's 2D, so it's hard to judge by her feet. I was looking at her body position
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
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Body position can be pre-rotated when feet are not though. Amber Corwin was known for this on her 3T-3T.

This is why I don't put a lot of stock into these videos. Anna is clearly jumping up in the air and spinning 4 times. To suggest that her jump is really only a triple (as the video does) is just ridiculous even if there is some pre-rotation.

I've seen this jump in person and it looks just like all the other decent quads out there performed by man or woman.
 

MichaelK

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827
It is not that hard to see on slow-motion that Anna rotates on the ice for about half a rotation on her 4 Lutz before she is going into the air. If the jump is then also short of rotation (like her first lutz in CoC) then she indeed only rotates a bit more than three times in the air on her "quad" lutz. Apparently the judges don't mind and give her high GOE anyway.
 

muffinplus

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3,407
It is not that hard to see on slow-motion that Anna rotates on the ice for about half a rotation on her 4 Lutz before she is going into the air. If the jump is then also short of rotation (like her first lutz in CoC) then she indeed only rotates a bit more than three times in the air on her "quad" lutz. Apparently the judges don't mind and give her high GOE anyway.
That one was UR.. so she didn't get high GOE on it. But her pre-rotation to me looks around 130-140 degrees. Looks like Actually it's really hard to tell because even with slow mo you cannot identify exact moment of takeoff or see body position since it's a 2D rendering
 
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Frau Muller

Everything is beautiful at the ballet!
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Trusova is beautiful. Not only is she a tech wizard but has an energetic artistry. Not all ballerinas specialize in Swan Lake...look at Ashley Bouder or Natalia Osipova...toughies!
 

Tinami Amori

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18,601
Any comments on this vid that came up in one of my feeds yesterday? Comparing Scherbakova's 4Lz to Jin's.
Oh please...... that's Koola King #2....... she is hell-bent on discrediting Russian girls, including Sotnikova.....

It is not that hard to see on slow-motion that Anna rotates on the ice for about half a rotation on her 4 Lutz before she is going into the air. If the jump is then also short of rotation (like her first lutz in CoC) then she indeed only rotates a bit more than three times in the air on her "quad" lutz. Apparently the judges don't mind and give her high GOE anyway.
Yes, live with it...... Russian girls are winning, and you don't like it.. ;)
 

love_skate2011

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2,713
Oh please...... that's Koola King #2....... she is hell-bent on discrediting Russian girls, including Sotnikova.....



Yes, live with it...... Russian girls are winning, and you don't like it.. ;)
yep that's Koola King 2.0, lets hope the account gets hacked again
and her credit cards indentitiy get stolen :rofl:
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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14,849
I know she got Edge calls, but was that 4Lz called under-rotated?
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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48,692
First, a bit of Midori news: NHK showed a program last night (30th October), as a lead up to NHK Trophy, a show with Kihira,Takeshi Honda and Akiko Suzuki. Near the end of program, Akiko talked about "the great Midori Ito" featuring skating snippets from 88Calgary, 89Worlds and 92Olympics. Akiko marveled at the fact that the second 3Ax Midori landed at Albertville was 3 minutes into her free. Rika responded "This is impossible. 3 minutes into the program, my legs are so tired." Then, Midori Ito walks into the studio! She was quite effusive in praising Kihira. Kihira said "I remember you encouraging me, when I was in Juniors, although I fell trying 3Ax at that event." Then everyone wanted to know how she could get so much height and distance on her jumps. Midori answered "It is easy. You only have to skate at your top speed and BAM! jump! You end up getting both height and distance." Both Honda and Suzuki, even Kihira, looked flabbergasted. Honda mumbled "Just getting the axis right requires some moderation of speed.." Kihira blurted "We are not trained to skate at top speed!" It was so nice to see Midori, looking so relaxed!
Sorry to be somewhat off topic.
The shortest time span between major jump being landed in Mens and Ladies, is 4 years. Quad Sal was landed by Timothy Goebel in 1998, then Miki Ando lands hers at 02 JGPF. Miki Ando's best quad Sal was at 04 JPN Nationals (this event was not televized due to switch from TBS to Fuji, that year), but Fuji TV, last year, showed a tape of her quad Sal at 04 JPN Senior Nats, which was totally clean. It was the first time I saw it, myself.
I am intrigued by the idea that first quad Ax or quint toe could be by a Lady skater. This has only happened once before, in 1902 Worlds, when Madge Syers, the only female competitor, evidently outskated everone there. I tend to believe this since the purported winner, Urlich Salchow, offered his gold medal to her and always said that Madge was the best skater there. ISU responded by creating Ladies Division by 1905.
Thanks so much for sharing this! Midori Ito was my favorite skater in the previous generation. She was fearless. That’s how Trusova appears to me. I do love the other talented ladies too - Alena and Anna (and Med and Zag), but somehow I see Midori in Trusova.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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48,692
Most of them aren’t real quads. They do almost a full rotation on the ice before even getting in the air. It’s a mess and the GOE for these jumps should automatically be in the negatives since there’s no regulations for pre-rotation (yet).
Did you actually watch the skaters or you were just dreaming?
 

Tony Wheeler

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6,506
Did you actually watch the skaters or you were just dreaming?
I don't think the comments about pre-rotation are that out of line. I think it should be addressed as much as the meticulousness of the under-rotations. I know a small bit of pre-rotation on jumps is allowed/needed/whatever, but there are skaters that are really abusing it (Uno on his 4F, Miyahara on most jumps, Matteo Rizzo on his flip/Lutz), etc.

Think of it this way- if a skater is rotating a full turn on the ice before they even lift off, but still land the jump without under-rotation, they are really only doing 2.00 rotations on a triple. Take the skater who has a solid take-off with barely any (if at all) pre-rotation, and lands .25 short. They are suddenly hit with the <, while the pre-rotator, although only technically doing a double jump, likely gets no deduction.

Now, someone is going to come and say that everyone does it. Skaters like Butyrskaya, Liashenko, and Tuktamysheva lift(ed) immediately off the toe pick on their Lutzes. Note to @Tinami Amori the examples I've given here before this turns into a whole anti-Russian thing.

One of the best 4T techniques I've ever seen was that of Chengjiang Li, and he was still pre-rotating about .25. Anything at .50 or over is where I would consider it a problem, because they technically wouldn't even be taking off in the correct direction. Also, so much turning/pre-rotation on the blade is sometimes turning the jump from one type to another. Going back to Uno's flip, which I have several problems with as a whole, he's really not picking in like a flip anymore once he actually gets off the ice.

I know it won't happen in the 2020 Congress, but I'm hoping for 2022. They are already analyzing the end of the jump with a magnifying glass, why not take the extra 2 seconds to review the entrance?

ETA- Shcherbakova pre-rotates the Lutz about 2/3 of the way around the first rotation. There was a perfect replay in the free skate of Cup of China that shows the 4+3 combo up close and shouldn't really leave any questions. Matched with the 1/4 turn under-rotation, it's just over 3 rotations off of the ice. There are much worse offenders, but this is still quite a bit.
 
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muffinplus

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3,407
ETA- Shcherbakova pre-rotates the Lutz about 2/3 of the way around the first rotation. There was a perfect replay in the free skate of Cup of China that shows the 4+3 combo up close and shouldn't really leave any questions. Matched with the 1/4 turn under-rotation, it's just over 3 rotations off of the ice. There are much worse offenders, but this is still quite a bit.
Even in super slow mo you cannot see the exact take off or tell about the angle of her body position.. not sure how you think it shouldn't leave any questions 🤷 I don't see 2/3, maybe 1/2 at most, but it's just not that easy to tell IMO
 

Tony Wheeler

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6,506
Even in super slow mo you cannot see the exact take off or tell about her body position in the exact moment of take off... not sure how you can it shouldn't leave any questions 🤷 I don't see 2/3, maybe 1/2 at most.
Her toe pick is 100% further than 1/2 way around when it finally lifts off the ice-- even if it's not by much. She doesn't pick in straight back, either. It's off to the side from the start. Hardly the only offender of this, though.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
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30,665
This comes up all the time and the ISU never does do what certain fans want and penalize pre-rotation. Maybe that means that pre-rotation is not something they consider a jump "cheat". 🤷‍♀️
 

muffinplus

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3,407
Her toe pick is 100% further than 1/2 way around when it finally lifts off the ice. She doesn't pick in straight back, either. It's off to the side from the start. Hardly the only offender of this, though.
How can you tell with certainty at what angle her toe pick has left the ice from a 2D rendering?


Take off is somewhere between
https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=41 and https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=42

To me that looks like 180 max from https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=9
 
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muffinplus

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3,407
This comes up all the time and the ISU never does do what certain fans want and penalize pre-rotation. Maybe that means that pre-rotation is not something they consider a jump "cheat". 🤷‍♀️
Well... people argue that ISU doesn't want to do it because it would hurt a lot of skaters since basically A LOT of them do this.

I don't know. I think the amount of vitriol against prerotation is in a lot of cases (not all) just an excuse to hate on certain skaters (not necessarily Russian)...
 

Tony Wheeler

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6,506
How can you tell how at what angle her toe pick has left the ice from a 2D rendering?


Take off is somewhere between
https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=41 and https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=42

To me that looks like 180 max from https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=9
At 41 seconds in this excellent video, she's already past the half-way point of one rotation. The video, which I had not seen, also seems to suggest she was right around 2/3 of the way around on the rotation before getting off the ice. The frozen frame at 38-39 seconds is where 1/2 would be.
 

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