The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

[Tinami Amori]

Nice try Tinami, I was simply hoping things would die out. Next time you can PM me to intervene earlier if you want. Lol.

Fair enough. Yet, if an offense is posted in public view, a reply should be also in public view. One side does not have more rights just because they are convinced they carry the only "truth".

It would be best if participants kept politics and their leans out of skating issues, unless it is directly related.

 

[bardtoob]

It would be best if participants kept politics and their leans out of skating issues, unless it is directly related.

There's plenty of politics within skating on it's own

 

[Urban Queen]

I am old fashioned, but I wish people learned the difference between "it's" and "its."

Anywho, I thought this would be a discussion about how to skate. As someone who recently started following skating more than just during the Olympics, I was excited to learn some technical details. Instead, I find people yelling at each other for supporting Trump and Obama.

Hopefully these online episodes focus more on the sport. I'm having some issues with the speakers on my computer, so as soon as I find my headphones I'll see what this much-debated Lease person has to offer.

 

[aftershocks]

... Dave and Jonathan are opinionated for sure, but most of their comments aren’t any worse than things I’ve read on on FSU.

But once again, why the continued comparisons between FSU (a discussion forum) and sports-related podcasts on Youtube, especially TSL? Anyone trying to set themselves up as a sports journalist worthy of receiving press credentials at events, has the responsibility to try and be less snarky and more professional.

Anyone who blogs or attempts to do skating reviews will necessarily find themselves needing to be less 'off-the-top-of-their-head' as with forum discussion remarks, and more reflective and non-partisan in their review write-ups.

The digressions in this thread are certainly OTT...

 

[Rock2]

I disagree. To my knowledge, there’s no code of ethics that quasi professional skating commentators are bound to adhere to.

You could almost argue it the other way when comparing vloggers to FSU posters.

Meaning, although I don't always agree with their choices, I might argue that Dave and Jonathan should be allowed to dial up the snark should they wish, simply because they are being open about who they are and willing to stand by their comments publicly.

 

[muffinplus]

They are getting a lot of trashing (probably deservedly so) for their latest video (which I haven't watched). Sounds like more Eteri camp / Alina bashing, calling Zagitova "just a pretty face with a lutz/loop combo"...


Looks like they got served in the comments:

"RE: Alina Zagitova Perhaps you may think that she has no distinguishing ability, no individuality. That's your personal opinion and that's fine by me, anyone can have their own opinion even if I may not agree with it. But to say she's got a "pretty face" and a "Lutz Loop combo" "and that's it" is so terribly degrading and inherently sexist it disgusts me. You invalidate her achievements; yes she's beautiful, but she's not JUST beautiful; she's incredibly resilient, she's strong and she's worked her ass off, not just for people like you to call her "a pretty face". She is THE Olympic champion, World champion, youngest winner of the 'Grand Slam of Figure Skating', only 2ND ever behind Kim Yuna. She's the ONLY Olympic ladies champion other than Katarina Witt to do a Grand Prix circuit after winning Olympic Gold, and she actually did pretty damn good with a Silver. She didn't win any of her medals because she's "a pretty face" but because she out skated her competitors. And its not just because of her Lutz Loop combos either. She is by far one of the BEST Spinners aside from Satoko, you'd be hell pressed to find another skater who's spins are as well done. Call it busy what will you, but she's never got anything less than a Level 4 on her step sequence, not once. She doesn't need to telegraph her jumps, unlike most skaters. And yeah maybe the Lutz Loop helped her win Olympic gold in 2018, but it was only because she had the guts to throw in a Lutz-Loop after she missed it, in a program packed with jumps. And again at worlds, yeah she may have a Lutz Loop, but she can also land it when it matters most even when her competitors fail to hold things together. She's much more than that. NO SKATER deserves to be spoke off in such a manner. "

 

[Colonel Green]

But once again, why the continued comparisons between FSU (a discussion forum) and sports-related podcasts on Youtube, especially TSL? Anyone trying to set themselves up as a sports journalist worthy of receiving press credentials at events, has the responsibility to try and be less snarky and more professional.

Anyone who blogs or attempts to do skating reviews will necessarily find themselves needing to be less 'off-the-top-of-their-head' as with forum discussion remarks, and more reflective and non-partisan in their review write-ups.

Why, exactly? TSL is, for the most part, an opinion/BTS gossip show (with a smattering of interviews). Them giving their opinions is the whole point (and presumably why they're doing this, as a personal interest).

 

[Finsta]

I find fan behavior odd that have to insult and harass if opinions spoken about skaters. I know skating is popular in Russia, but wow. Does it border obsession at some point?

 

[Tavi]

But once again, why the continued comparisons between FSU (a discussion forum) and sports-related podcasts on Youtube, especially TSL? Anyone trying to set themselves up as a sports journalist worthy of receiving press credentials at events, has the responsibility to try and be less snarky and more professional.

Anyone who blogs or attempts to do skating reviews will necessarily find themselves needing to be less 'off-the-top-of-their-head' as with forum discussion remarks, and more reflective and non-partisan in their review write-ups.

The digressions in this thread are certainly OTT...

I disagree with you, and find it particularly ironic that you would criticize anyone or anything for being snarky, digressing, or being off topic.

 

[muffinplus]

I find fan behavior odd that have to insult and harass if opinions spoken about skaters. I know skating is popular in Russia, but wow. Does it border obsession at some point?

I think what they say about Zagitova is not very nice. They certainly deserve to be called on it....

 

[aftershocks]

I disagree with you, and find it particularly ironic that you would criticize anyone or anything for being snarky, digressing, or being off topic.

Ah well then, we disagree. Take care @Tavi.

 

[Urban Queen]

Greetings Aftershocks:
I do not want to be confrontational again, but I am a retired English teacher and I just noticed the quote at the bottom of your comments. I don't know if you put it there, but Christopher Smart's cat was named Jeoffry, not Jeoffrey, and the cat was not a "she" but a "he" so you have misquoted the excerpt from Jubilate Agno.

I am impressed by your knowledge of such an erudite and obscure poet but the incorrect details are quite distracting.

For reference:
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/jubilate-agno-fragment-b-i-will-consider-my-cat-jeoffry

I am trying to watch this new and controversial episode from Mr. Lease, but the video is not loading quickly enough so I will wait and see if it is working better tomorrow.

 

[aftershocks]

Why, exactly? TSL is, for the most part, an opinion/BTS gossip show (with a smattering of interviews). Them giving their opinions is the whole point (and presumably why they're doing this, as a personal interest).

Right. When I speak of blogging and doing print reviews, I'm not talking about podcasts. It's a fine line, of course, but if you wish to be taken seriously, I think you have to approach print reviews and blogging with a bit more seriousness and professionalism, particularly print reviews. Obviously, anyone can approach their review efforts anyway they choose, whether fan-related podcasts, blogging and/or print reviews on contract with various publications. Further, if a blogger or podcaster hopes to receive press credentials to cover events, it's probably helpful to strike a professional tone in the work they do. That doesn't mean kowtowing. It's possible to be opinionated, constructive and entertaining, without being unnecessarily nasty, gratuitous and OTT with the pile-on.

I have always felt that TSL had an opportunity to craft a unique and entertaining way of covering the sport. Unfortunately, DL and cohort are often hoist by their own petard. The shows are unfocused, rambling, and in dire need of video editing. But sure, sometimes there are nuggets here and there of interesting conversation that I sometimes agree with. Unfortunately, there's too often a lot of unnecessary jabs at athletes, punctuated by egos gone wild.

 

[Rock2]

I think what they say about Zagitova is not very nice. They certainly deserve to be called on it....

See, and this sort of comment gets to the heart of where the division in perspective is.

First off, where in the rules is 'being nice' necessary? I think it's important to not be rude or disrespectful but these vlogs and chatrooms are not forums for self-esteem management or universally uplifting commentary. As a side note I do happen to enjoy the 'cheer threads' because there should IMHO be distinct places to show the love. I see that as a good thing. So when someone says 'well that wasn't nice', I'm like '...and....?'

So then I at least try to dissect the statement or commentary to see where the issue is. My second observation is that people have vastly different thresholds for what is seen to be mean, rude or inappropriate. For far too many, almost any comment that is not effusive praise is intolerable. I wish for the world that it grows a thicker skin. Consider the discussion of Zagitova. It was an evaluation of the distinguishable tools she has to separate herself in competition and they called out two POSITIVE things -- her looks and lutz-loop -- but couldn't think of anything else. And they need to be 'served' or 'called out' because they could only brainstorm two differentiating positives (which implies she could have many other skills that are very good but only on par with other elite skaters)?? How DARE they!! IMHO this comment wasn't even close to mean. Miles away. If you want to disagree and debate the superiority of her spins or fw, have at it -- that's an intellectual debate; spare me the dramatic indignation -- especially on what I see as a seriously benign opinion.

Third, we on the regular confuse discussion of someone's skating with an evaluation of them as a person. Another wish I have for the world is that we can learn to separate the two. So while it may be true that she's resilient and works hard, you get no points for that under IJS, which is why those background characteristics were not included in the comment as they weren't relevant. Those may be qualities she has but they are only tools to create an on-ice result, which was the focus.

All of this I'm afraid is common phenomena when speaking of skating, politics, current events, social issues etc. We have an ingoing emotional attachment or distaste for people or topics and we let those emotions run rampant while sometimes creating additional narratives that exist mostly in our heads. I get we're not robots so this happens...but geez Louise.

 

[muffinplus]

Jonathan, is that you?

Fine, I'll use the word disrespectful if that makes you happier. Sorry, but they have been extremely negative about Zagitova for a while...I'm not sure how calling someone a pretty face with a lutz loop can be spinned as something positive.

She isn't my favourite skater or anything but their rhetoric when it comes to her skating has been very grating

 

[thvu]

I'm not sure how calling someone a pretty face with a lutz loop can be spinned as something positive.

@muffinplus with delusions, that’s how!

 

[Rock2]

I'm not sure how calling someone a pretty face with a lutz loop can be spinned as something positive.

Repeat out loud what you just typed and this time listen to yourself. Perhaps something will click.

If not, I suggest approaching a friend and tell them that if someone told you that you had a pretty (handsome?) face that you couldn't possibly imagine how to spin that into a positive comment. Check the reaction you get

 

[vodkashot]

It's a common sexist trope to attribute a woman's professional success and accomplishments to her attractiveness.

Repeat out loud what you just typed and this time listen to yourself. Perhaps something will click.

If not, I suggest approaching a friend and tell them that if someone told you that you had a pretty (handsome?) face that you couldn't possibly imagine how to spin that into a positive comment. Check the reaction you get

For example, see here: The Good, Bad and Ugly Ways Benevolent Sexism Plays Out in the Workplace

When a male colleague compliments you on your looks, you may like it. Who doesn’t like a compliment? It makes you feel good; boosts your self-esteem. In fact, a well-timed compliment can make your day when you’re feeling blue. What’s the harm? It may not seem harmful at all, until you realize that you only receive superficial comments about your appearance, never about your work. And though you may welcome the attention, over time you become frustrated and discouraged because no one takes you seriously. These comments about your appearance can be, in fact, a form of benevolent sexism.

 

[VGThuy]

Imagine if your whole life's work and sacrifices were summarized as you being a "pretty face" with one trick that gets you by. Most people would skip over the "pretty" part and would feel insulted about how everything you've done has been summarized and dismissed in such a way, and if they think about the "pretty" part what they'd think about it is how condescending it is and then how insulting it actually is because it was said in a spiteful way. Basically they're saying you're just getting by on your looks and you have nothing else to offer and if you were "less attractive" you wouldn't be as successful. It's not that they actually think you're pretty, but they think other people (or society) may think that you're attractive in a way that is rewarded, and that's the only way they can explain your success because it sure ain't your work product.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Imagine if your whole life's work and sacrifices were summarized as you being a "pretty face" with one trick that gets you by.

Works for me.

 

[Aerobicidal]

Imagine if your whole life's work and sacrifices were summarized as you being a "pretty face" with one trick that gets you by. Most people would skip over the "pretty" part and would feel insulted about how everything you've done has been summarized and dismissed in such a way, and if they think about the "pretty" part what they'd think about it is how condescending it is and then how insulting it actually is because it was said in a spiteful way. Basically they're saying you're just getting by on your looks and you have nothing else to offer and if you were "less attractive" you wouldn't be as successful. It's not that they actually think you're pretty, but they think other people (or society) may think that you're attractive in a way that is rewarded, and that's the only way they can explain your success because it sure ain't your work product.

Dave Lease's comments are just another example of the misogyny he's demonstrated again and again.

I don't want to go on a long tangent about this, but one thing that creeps me out about some elements of gay male culture is this attitude that women are fair game for any sort of negativity. Passing judgment on women's bodies and achievements (and weights and looks and other specifics) is just so lame and unnecessary. I think skating and gymnastics fandoms highlight this, but there are tons of other examples from pop culture and queer theory that come to mind.

I am not suggesting misogyny or body shaming are any better or worse coming from other people, but Dave and his supporters (who are very often either women or gay men)* absolutely deserve to get called out on this bullshit because it has real and toxic implications both in and out of skating.

*And yes I am referring to multiple people who post in this thread.

 

[bardtoob]

Dave Lease's comments are just another example of the misogyny he's demonstrated again and again.

I don't want to go on a long tangent about this, but one thing that creeps me out about some elements of gay male culture is this attitude that women are fair game for any sort of negativity. Passing judgment on women's bodies and achievements (and weights and looks and other specifics) is just so lame and unnecessary. I think skating and gymnastics fandoms highlight this, but there are tons of other examples from pop culture and queer theory that come to mind.

I am not suggesting misogyny or body shaming are any better or worse coming from other people, but Dave and his supporters (who are very often either women or gay men)* absolutely deserve to get called out on this bullshit because it has real and toxic implications both in and out of skating.

*And yes I am referring to multiple people who post in this thread.

Yeah, I thought it was very creepy when he demanded to see Gracie Gold's body after a champs camp. He still thinks he has a right to a woman's body, regardless of his orientations. That's weird and misogynistic.

 

[Wyliefan]

I'm not the biggest fan of Alina's skating, but my gosh, what an absurd thing to say. There's nothing "just" about a lutz-loop combo, or about any of her tech content, for that matter. There's room to critique her posture and presentation, but she's talented, hardworking, and gutsy, and a pretty face (which she undoubtedly has) is the least of her attributes.

 

[Finsta]

I agree Alina is a ball of talent, but all I see is jumps and bad posture. I don’t see any artistic ability or joy when she skates. Maybe that’s what he mean to say but said it badly

 

[bardtoob]

The "just a lutz-loop" is absurd. That combination makes a skater competitive with those that have a 3A but no 3Lp in combination.

 

[barbarafan]

Dave Lease's comments are just another example of the misogyny he's demonstrated again and again.

I don't want to go on a long tangent about this, but one thing that creeps me out about some elements of gay male culture is this attitude that women are fair game for any sort of negativity. Passing judgment on women's bodies and achievements (and weights and looks and other specifics) is just so lame and unnecessary. I think skating and gymnastics fandoms highlight this, but there are tons of other examples from pop culture and queer theory that come to mind.

I am not suggesting misogyny or body shaming are any better or worse coming from other people, but Dave and his supporters (who are very often either women or gay men)* absolutely deserve to get called out on this bullshit because it has real and toxic implications both in and out of skating.

*And yes I am referring to multiple people who post in this thread.

Bear in mind all straight women are Dave Lease's direct competition for dishy men.

 

[bardtoob]

I was scratching my head about why "The Skating Lesson" comments about gymnastics rules, then I remembered that, despite the title, the whole thing is about DL's obsession with Michelle Kwan and Shannon Miller and him living vicariously through the heartache of their careers

 

[Tavi]

Dave Lease's comments are just another example of the misogyny he's demonstrated again and again.

I don't want to go on a long tangent about this, but one thing that creeps me out about some elements of gay male culture is this attitude that women are fair game for any sort of negativity. Passing judgment on women's bodies and achievements (and weights and looks and other specifics) is just so lame and unnecessary. I think skating and gymnastics fandoms highlight this, but there are tons of other examples from pop culture and queer theory that come to mind.

I am not suggesting misogyny or body shaming are any better or worse coming from other people, but Dave and his supporters (who are very often either women or gay men)* absolutely deserve to get called out on this bullshit because it has real and toxic implications both in and out of skating.

*And yes I am referring to multiple people who post in this thread.

But don’t you think he criticizes male skaters similarly? He used to criticize Max and Jason a ton for just about everything, and though he’s more positive towards Jason these days, he still makes fun of his “fake” quad.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

There is no denying Alina's talent.

When she is on, her technical content is amongst the best in the world. What I particularly loved this year about her win in Saitama, was, with everything to prove on the line, how she connected with her music and the audience.

 

[Aerobicidal]

But don’t you think he criticizes male skaters similarly? He used to criticize Max and Jason a ton for just about everything, and though he’s more positive towards Jason these days, he still makes fun of his “fake” quad.

I have never been able to tolerate more than ten seconds of TSL. However, I am familiar with many of the things he's said as Dave and as Aunt Joyce via comments and links FSU.

I was responding to what @VIETgrlTerifa said about the "pretty face and 3Z3L" combo.

Dave's comments have consistently implied that he's in a position to harshly judge women's bodies and appearances and that's okay because it's "real talk" or something like that.

I don't care what he's said about Max and Jason; I don't see how that is at all relevant to what I'm arguing. It might be similarly awful, or sexist (though probably not misogynist), or even homophobic.

My comment wasn't about being critical or even harshly critical. I have no problem at all with that when the comments are directed at adult athletes.

Moreover, I was specifically talking about the trend I've noticed in gay male culture of judging women and their bodies and appearances, which makes what Dave has said about Max and Jason even more irrelevant.

So, basically, I have no idea how your response has anything to do with what I said.