The proposed changes to the scoring system: for or against?

[Maofan7]

Fabio Bianchetti, the chair of the ISU Single & Pair Skating Committee, has proposed a number of changes to the scoring system

A top official at the International Skating Union said the organization is looking at "radical change" in figure skating in order to achieve a better balance between the athletic and artistic sides of the sport.

The change would involve substantially lowering the base values of quadruple jumps and, for pairs, quadruple throws. For three of the five quads being done in men's singles, the reduction would be more than 10 percent, according to proposed numbers obtained by icenetwork.

"This is the direction line I am working on with the intent to make a radical change for the future development of the sport, hoping to bring back the popularity that figure skating used to have in the past," Italy's Fabio Bianchetti, the chair of the ISU Single & Pair Skating Committee, wrote in an email.

Another change may include replacing the current short program and free skate with what would effectively be an athletic program and an artistic program. Each would award full medals in events like the Olympics and the world championships, and there also would be a full medal for the all-around winner.

"Everything is possible," Bianchetti wrote. "At the moment, it is absolutely too early to say anything. The intention is to have three different medals: one for technical, one for artistic and one all-around, but how it will be for sure is impossible to say now."

While the scoring changes could go into effect for the 2018-19 season, the plan for new programs may have to wait until after the 2022 Olympic Games.

Overall, on balance, are you for or against these changes?

 

[Maofan7]

Plushenko criticises the proposal to reduce the base value for quads

"Full of delirium, nonsense," Plushenko said, "men's single skating.....has been pushed forward with quads, so why lower their value? Who decides this, I do not understand? Who thinks it up?"

"The future of world figure skating is in multi-turn jumping, as my great trainer Alexei Mishin said..... artistry is needed, who is against it? But why lower the value of quadruple jumps? On the contrary, bonuses should be given! " - said Plushenko.

"By the way, I've heard that the free program is to be reduced to four minutes from four minutes and forty seconds. Complete nonsense" the figure skater believes.

 

[DimaToe]

I'm for them, artistic and rhythmic gymnastics update their code of points each Olympic cycle, I don't get why skating couldn't be the same, there's no need for IJS to forever stay the same, if something doesn't work like the ISU thought it would. Then just make the change for the following Olympic cycle.

 

[Vash01]

I hate breaking down FS into athletic and artistic. The beauty and uniqueness of FS is in combining the two aspects. Why are they destroying my favorite sport?

About the quad jumps-

They raised the points value of a quad after the 2010 Olympics because the difficulty and the risk was not rewarded appropriately. Now that the skaters are challenging themselves athletically, they want to change the rules to discourage that Olympic spirit!

What I would like to see instead is- 1) raise the value of other elements and/or put a limit on how many quads a skater is allowed to attempt in a program, They do have limits on the number is triple jumps (7 for ladies, 8 for men) and number of throws (2) in pairs. So why not set a limit on the number of quads? It will force the skaters to fill the reimagining space with artistic moves.

We already have skaters that can combine great technical difficulty with great artistry (Hanyu, Fernandez, Chan, Uno). It makes the sport move forward. IMO our sport needs minor tweaks, not an overhaul.

 

[briancoogaert]

About the rules, I'm not fond of Short AND Long programs. They are basically the same.
I'd rather watch a technical program with special elements : a new solo jump every year, or this spin, or that spiral... As it was before in fact.

 

[bardtoob]

I think Spins should be raised in value so they have the same weight as a between a 3T or 3S.

I think Level 4 step sequences should have the same weight of 3S, Level 3 step sequences should have the same weights as a 2A, etc.

I think every element after the 2 minute mark should be given a bonus, so that a step sequence gets a bonus like a jump, so that the advantage is a basket of elements rather than specific type of element.

Note, this would still allow jumps to be the most valuable elements of a program while shifting importance to other types of elements.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

The feedback here will most likely be biased against the changes, because many people who value artistry in figure skating have been driven away to become just casual fans over the years. That said, I think the proposal has a lot of merit, even if I disagree with Mr. Bianchetti somewhat.

As another user stated upthread, figure skating is the combination of athleticism and artistry. Not one or the other. Someone who is skating an easy program but doing it beautifully is cheating. And someone who is jumping through background music is also cheating, no matter how many revolutions they accomplish in the air. The old system had it right where half of the score was technical and half was artistic, and overall placement would meet somewhere in the middle. For a number of years now artistry has been discarded and made completely irrelevant. I would be vehemently against separate artistic and technical competitions. The powers that be just need to figure out how to make the scoring right.

Make artistic performance (key word: performance!) in figure skating great again.

 

[arakwafan2006]

I think that they can do better than what they are but the two new programs are ridiculous. Reducing the value for quads? What about increasing the value of components OR, judging components fairly? Even with 5 different quads from Nathan Chen, he should not beat Yuzuru Hanyu if Yuzu does 2 different quads, a transition laden program and the axels in the second half. What I mean is, using Nathan and Yuzuru as examples, Nathan shouldn’t just be able to out jump Yuzu and win because Yuzuru has spent his time perfecting EVERY aspect of his skating, INCLUDING his jumps. The hours of stroking and the marked improvement to what was already incredible should not just be able to be counted out because of a quad.


Use Max Aaron vs Jason Brown. If Jason skated a clean program without a quad and Max landed one and also skated clean, I don't know if i could stomach Max winning because his skating skills are in shambles if you ask me. I suppose it also bothers me that you would need someone who is a master at philosophy to explain the so called improvements Max has made in 4 damn years. My point is, don't reduce the value of quads but solidify balance.


Why are quads being called out? I did not read that whole article but what about the backloading of the jumps that the Russian ladies are doing? Do I think that Carolina Kostner's programs with two Flip's and no Lutz are as good as Alina Zagitova? NO. Carolina is a masterful skater but Alina, while being less mature does not have massive faults with her basic skating or any of the other core competencies ( spins, interpretation, under rotating/edge calls).


I am totally against limiting the quad throws in pairs


The short and long programs are a test in physical conditioning as well as mental strength. leave it the hell alone!

Nikoli Morozov, of all people had it right when he said that the reason skating polularity suffers in a country is because they don't have a star. Look at ladies skating in the United States? I don't care what the hell you call the skating programs, our ladies are only known by uber fans. I mean, Nagasu is setting herself up to be crazy marketable if she pulls off a victory at US National's and if she's named to the team given the crushing decision to leave her off the team 4 years ago. Still, go ask people at the gym, salon, classroom, work if they remember that. They wont. People don't watch skating. In fairness, it's the same in other sports. As a Detroiter, i assure you that nobody gives a shit about the Tigers unless it's time to skip work for a game sponsored by the company you work for. Let us start winning and see what happens

 

[Andrushka]

Plushenko criticises the proposal to reduce the base value for quads

Oh I'll tell you who thinks it up....people who can't do quads or their favorites can't do quads. Extreme athleticism should be rewarded.

I'd be more apt to be in favor of going back to the old 6.0 system with safe guards before I'd be in favor of these sorts of changes.

 

[Marco]

Oh I'll tell you who thinks it up....people who can't do quads or their favorites can't do quads. Extreme athleticism should be rewarded.

Well, if it would somewhat balance out the impact caused when people who can only do quads or their favorites can only do quads cause the value of quads to sky-rocket when quadsters like Plushenko and Joubert didn't win.

 

[CantALoop]

They want to decrease pair quad throws? If anything, I thought quad throws (and 3ATh for that matter) are undervalued. If they accept those new values, a throw 4T/4S will only be worth 0.6 more than a SBS 3Lz

 

[DaiKozOda]

Give me a break... After SLC there was so much talk that FS is a sport and there has to be objectivity to the scoring system. Cutting a long story short, the code of points was introduced. And now they want a radical change in the scoring system? If you want to watch pure artistic programs go and watch galas. I love FS as a sport. Quads are part of the fun in men's skating and the dificulty has to be rewarded. If they want to make the sport more popular again in certain countries, invest in proper promotion.

 

[lauravvv]

I hate breaking down FS into athletic and artistic. The beauty and uniqueness of FS is in combining the two aspects. Why are they destroying my favorite sport?

About the quad jumps-

They raised the points value of a quad after the 2010 Olympics because the difficulty and the risk was not rewarded appropriately. Now that the skaters are challenging themselves athletically, they want to change the rules to discourage that Olympic spirit!

What I would like to see instead is- 1) raise the value of other elements and/or put a limit on how many quads a skater is allowed to attempt in a program

I personally would be more for something like Stephane Lambiel suggested - to make the short program a technical program with a certain number of required elements, and to make the long/"free" program more free which would not mean making it only an artistic program, but giving skaters more freedom in what and how many elements to perform in it. At the same time, I agree that the number of quads and how many jumps can be done in the second half of the program should probably be limited instead if decreasing the value of those jumps (namely, quads) and/or (at least) more value should be given to other elements and aspects/skills of figure skating (such as skating skills which, if judged objectively, are less subjective than such components as, say, performance and choreography).

 

[Vash01]

I personally would be more for something like Stephane Lambiel suggested - to make the short program a technical program with a certain number of required elements, and to make the long/"free" program more free which would not mean making it only an artistic program, but giving skaters more freedom in what and how many elements to perform in it. At the same time, I agree that the number of quads and how many jumps can be done in the second half of the program should probably be limited instead if decreasing the value of those jumps (namely, quads) and/or (at least) more value should be given to other elements and aspects/skills of figure skating (such as skating skills which, if judged objectively, are less subjective than such components as, say, performance and choreography).

The SP does have required elements. It used to be called the technical program. The LP is relatively free. It has been that way for many years. I think the COP has pushed everyone toward maximizing the points rather than having a truly artistic free program.

 

[Andrushka]

Well, if it would somewhat balance out the impact caused when people who can only do quads or their favorites can only do quads cause the value of quads to sky-rocket when quadsters like Plushenko and Joubert didn't win.

Although the old 6.0 system was flawed,it reflected where the deficits were. But even so,someone with the whole package will be the one who scores the best. But it is incredibly frustrating to watch skating and see the "top" guys constantly on the butt on the ice. I haven't watched in well over a year,it aggravated me way too much.

 

[DreamSkates]

I voted "I don't know" because there are so many variables and aspects to consider in giving points for anything. Spins should count for more points. Quads are so difficult, they "deserve" more points. They could limit the number of jumps allowed in the second half of the program because - to me - that's a lopsided program. It should be balanced and diverse. I also don't like one spin after another.

 

[Marco]

Although the old 6.0 system was flawed,it reflected where the deficits were.

Really? Back in 6.0, you get two scores and that's it. Now you get your scores, plus calls and GOEs on your individual elements plus 5 separate component scores.

There is no doubt to me IJS as a system offers more details to the judging that the skaters can learn from and work on (i.e. if I had spun better, I would have won this competition; or darn that flutz cost me my medal).

 

[umronnie]

I am all for changes in CoP, however not the proposed changes.

I do not think limiting athletic progress is good for any sport. I do not think that lowering the BV of quads back to around what they were in 2010 is good for the sport.
I get that some people are frustrated by quadfest getting astronomical scores and leaving behind less-athletic-but-better-overall programs. So am I. But the solution is not changing the BV of the difficult elements. It is in the judging of the elements' uality and in the PCS.

In order to get the quality and artistry more important I would like to see the PCS factors raised - it should no longer be 0.8/1.6 for ladies/pairs, now that TES for top competitors are in the high 40s/70s - it should be 1.0/2.0. For the men, with TES for top skaters going to 60/120 (and we might see higher this season) it should be changed to 1.2/2.4, at the very least.
More scrutiny should be given to the way PCS scores are given and it should be noted that landing 5 quads does not make you autmatically "qualified" for PCS in the mid 8s, and if all you have is quads no way should your CH score be in the 8s. Get rid of the darn corridor.

Get the programs balanced again. I am tired of skaters doing a jump, a spin, an endless, excruciatingly slow step sequence, then squeeze everything else after the halfway mark. No more than half the jumping passes should qualify for bonus. Stop awarding GoE for hand-over-your-head moves. We used to have an overdose of Bielmanns, now an overdoes of ugly Tanos. Enough is enough.

How about - raise the value of spins and step sequences, so that a level 4 would be the same as a 3T, and make the free program free - 13 elements of your choice, but at least one of each category (1 spin, 1 jump, 1 step) and with the Zayak rule expanded to spins. A great spinner (Lucinda Ruh, anyone) could cram 6 different spins and not attempt Lutz and Flip. A skater with great edges can replace a spin with a great footwork section. Freedom to express yourself and show your strengths, but no over-repetition and still a great advantage to mastering the difficult jumps. An unbalanced program (10 jumps and only 1 spin) should be penalized in PCS and with better PCS judging and an increased factor - this would have an impact.

 

[Andrushka]

Really? Back in 6.0, you get two scores and that's it. Now you get your scores, plus calls and GOEs on your individual elements plus 5 separate component scores.

There is no doubt to me IJS as a system offers more details to the judging that the skaters can learn from and work on (i.e. if I had spun better, I would have won this competition; or darn that flutz cost me my medal).

I understand and partially agree with what you're saying. And I know how the system works,I'm one of the people who cast votes at the U.S. figure skating governing council for it to be used in the U.S. What I was referring to is very simply...artistic or technical. I am less a fan of the system as time as went on,in some ways I feel it's become too picked apart.

 

[Marco]

My concern is that the IJS system is still not effectively fixing judging issues. There is still so much reputation judging going on.

Then again, this is a subjective sport so perhaps there is never going to be a fairer system.

 

[alchemy void]

I like IJS overall and much prefer it to 6.0 but I think a few things need to happen:

-5 to +5 GOEs need to happen, with clear bulletpoints. A +5 should be an orgasmic religious experience.

I'd be ok with a simplification of levelling, if that means just 2 footwork levels, fine. Or maybe only one leveled spin per program. Then judges could use the expanded GOE to score appropriately. Just to give an ability to loosen up the programs a little bit and let them breathe. I don't want to go back to 6.0 days of stroke-stroke-stroke-jump-stroke, but I think it's just a little too much right now.

The PCS should be tallied/averaged out into a score for each judge and then read off judge by judge like 6.0. I really miss the K&C drama of seeing the Canadian judge giving B/K a 5.9 for presentation (or Russian giving 5.9, if you prefer).

Don't lower the value of quads, or if it happens lower them by like 0.2 points or something. This is a sport, first and foremost, and the tech advances in men's skating is incredible.

 

[love_skate2011]

breaking into a technical and artistic program ?
just like shyncro swimming.....

 

[screech]

I also kind of miss the years when the SP had a designated solo spin (sit/sit or camel/camel) and designated flying spin, as well as a set solo jump (done as a triple or quad). If any changes were to be made to the SP, that's what I'd ask for. I don't think quad BV need to be decreased, but I do think there should be some sort of limitations, especially with regards to backloading.
I also think that judges need to make sure to mark components separately. Just because a skater might have 9.5-worthy transitions does not mean they have 9.5-worthy skating skills, or P/E. I'd love it if we saw some skaters get 9.5 for transitions, then 7 for P/E, if that's what their programs showed (which some do).

 

[kittysk8ts]

This is such a piddly little contribution; but I hope they limit the amount of "tanos" and "rippons". I just watched Sotskova's free from Finlandia trophy and she did a tano on every single jump. Every single one. And her arm was very floppy. Looked like a big noodle flapping over the top of each jump. So many of the girls doing this now.

 

[Marco]

I love the Boitano and Rippon type of fully stretched out arm-above-head variation. I would actually argue that the flimsy variation being done these days by many others reduces the quality of the air position (and often the landing position and quality) and should be penalized accordingly.

 

[briancoogaert]

This is such a piddly little contribution; but I hope they limit the amount of "tanos" and "rippons". I just watched Sotskova's free from Finlandia trophy and she did a tano on every single jump. Every single one. And her arm was very floppy. Looked like a big noodle flapping over the top of each jump. So many of the girls doing this now.

Absolutely. Even Medvedeva's arm looks like a big noodle. It's very disgraceful.
Brian Boitano's Lutz was a thing of beauty with his stretched arm over the head.

 

[lauravvv]

The SP does have required elements. It used to be called the technical program. The LP is relatively free. It has been that way for many years. I think the COP has pushed everyone toward maximizing the points rather than having a truly artistic free program.

Actually I have watched figure skating long enough to know the requirements for short and free programs as they are now. Obviously my wording should have been different. I should have said "leave the short program as it is" instead of "make" it anything. The FS is relatively more free, but there are still really many restrictions. I think it should be at least slightly more free.

 

[Areski]

Absolutely. Even Medvedeva's arm looks like a big noodle. It's very disgraceful.
Brian Boitano's Lutz was a thing of beauty with his stretched arm over the head.

Just put the limit on those tanos please. How does tano makes a highlight as it supposed to when it's abused / overused & badly done

 

[chantilly]

I agree with many suggestions above.
I think limiting the amount of quads, and the backliading of programs. I think three quads, perhaps four is plenty.But I'd prefer 3. The skaters then can go for more difficult quads or quads that are more their strength and go for GOE/PCS.
I agree that footwork especially and spins should be worth more.
I would also like to limit arm variations in a program for jumps.
I hate the shortening of the programme time.
And I hate the idea of technical vs Artistic.
The short has that already and I firmly believe that skating is yes a sport, but a sport that artistry is a huge part of.
I also think falls need to receive automatic reduction in PCS points.
Definitely in PE and maybe in skating skills, especially with multiple falls.
Any jump error, hand down, step out, two foot should only receive a negative GOE.

 

[Bellanca]

It won't matter if they change the scoring system, they'll (eventually) change it again, and then again... like a potter's wheel, shaping and trimming until they are satisfied ... which will be never.