The major ISU rule changes now ...limits to quads and reduction of bonus for backloading jumps

[Tavi]

Funny, I find the fandom and judges in general tend to be much more forgiving of a skater who has been deemed "artistic" but may be deficient technically, than they are of a skater who has been deemed a "jumper" but may not meet the narrow-minded definition of artistry this sport seems to hold.

You mean like Jason has never been criticized for having a wonky triple axel and not landing quads?

Forgive me, but I think you have a theory that the skating world is biased against “jumpers,” and you selectively filter facts to support your theory.

Max, for example, has received his share of praise as well as criticism, but I’ve always gotten the feeling you hear the criticism and discount the praise.

I also think it’s problematic to divide skaters into jumpers and artists. Is Nathan just a jumper? If so, why is his PCS so high? What about Yuzuru? What about Jason - are none of his jumps reliably high quality?

As to the ladies: is Med (who I root for a lot) just a jumper? What about Kostornaya, who did a 3A and a backloaded program last season? Can you say with a straight face that Zagitova was held back in PCS?

JMO.

 

[alchemy void]

But I can think of several free skates where, right at the halfway point, the skater goes end to end to end to end, doing 4 jumping passes with minimal transitions, without showing any indication the music's tempo had changed or anything like that. That is code-whoring.

Absolutely. I *hate* those 3 or 4 consecutive jumping passes, right at the halfway point, that blatantly ignore the music. I wish the ISU somehow addressed that (not sure how they would, to be honest). And maybe with only 3 jumps getting a second-half bonus, it will naturally even out and we won't see much of this anymore.

I won't miss the days when every long program seemed to start with the three most difficult jump passes - it was so predictable. The jumps are highlights and I'd prefer to see them mixed with other elements. ISU did not outlaw backloading, just took the bonus away from what they considered excessive backloading. I agree that the music used by Zagitova made the jumps in the second half very exciting when she did them well. But the first half of the program was devoid of much interest with no jumps at all - maybe because Zagitova is not yet at the highest level of skating skills (IMHO of course).

Again, I also totally agree. So many programs in 6.0 had 4 or 5 jumps in the first 90 seconds. And all we'd get in the second half was a double axel and maybe a triple toe. Boring. Hopefully this guideline will help restore a little bit more balance.

I agree with regards to Zagitova. The first half wasn't necessarily bad, but it could have made much more of an impact if she had better speed and skating skills. The second half was like slamming 3 red bulls in 2 minutes.

 

[gkelly]

Code-whoring specifically means doing something in your programs strictly for the purpose of earning greater base value or GOE. ...

Code-whoring doesn't mean any effort to increase your base value or GOE, just those efforts which visually detract from the program.

So would that include attempting jumps that are not likely to be landed beautifully, either by top jumpers to push the limits of the sport as a whole or by mid-pack skaters trying to keep up with the leaders?

How about playing around with edges and body positions for the sake of creativity and introducing new kinds of difficulty, even if the positions might not always be as attractive as if the skater had stuck to tried and true basics?

Because skaters had been doing those things (risking failed jumps for the sake of vague 6.0 base value, and aiming more at creativity than at beauty in hopes of earning some "artistry" points) long before IJS.

 

[DimaToe]

So since I guess I touched some nerves, let’s go with “milking the system” unless that’s also inappropriate somehow I mean had the new rules been in place last season I’m pretty sure that Zagitova would have found a way to be right up there with the TES, but would she have been as impressive without her hat trick of all jumps in the second half?

 

[rfisher]

Code-whoring specifically means doing something in your programs strictly for the purpose of earning greater base value or GOE. This 'something' will be anti-aesthetic and anti-musical and ...either because judges don't care or because fans don't know how to divine PCS...will appear to result in a higher score. Slutskaya's upright change of edge spins come to mind, lol.

Code-whoring doesn't mean any effort to increase your base value or GOE, just those efforts which visually detract from the program.

Zagitova's FS worked from an artistic perspective, certainly as well as anyone else's. So I would not say her putting all her jumps in the bonus time was an example of 'code-whoring.' But I can think of several free skates where, right at the halfway point, the skater goes end to end to end to end, doing 4 jumping passes with minimal transitions, without showing any indication the music's tempo had changed or anything like that. That is code-whoring.

You can offer any explanation you want. The term whoring is derogatory. Period. There is no reason to apply the term to any skater. And, give me one example where a poster applied it to a male skater. It's offensive and there is no definition of whoring that is applicable to a skater's program lay out which is designed to score the maximum number of points in order to place as high as possible.

 

[DimaToe]

You can offer any explanation you want. The term whoring is derogatory. Period. There is no reason to apply the term to any skater. And, give me one example where a poster applied it to a male skater. It's offensive and there is no definition of whoring that is applicable to a skater's program lay out which is designed to score the maximum number of points in order to place as high as possible.

@rfisher worst things have been said on this forum without the at least speaking for myself, When I used that term I didn’t single out any female skaters. There are several good examples of male skaters fitting that mold (certain male U.S. Olympic champion comes to mind) it’s ok to be offended and ok that term might not be good to use but don’t try and make it a bigger deal than it should be.

 

[Rock2]

I think those are positive changes for the sport.

I'll jump on the semantics here. It is actually fairly regressive for a 'sport' to restrict technical advancement.

There may be a bonus in terms of picking up audiences becase this idea of 'balance' is really smoke and mirrors. I don't think the ISU wants to have technically superior athletes winning titles. It's the more charismatic ones that fill stands and get TV audiences. Restricting and lowering values of tech ensures the winners are selected by PCS which is essentially at the discretion of panels.

Audiences gained will be from the demographic that values the aesthetic part of the sport to a high degree. Pulling sports fans over from other athletic sports will become ever more difficult.

 

[rfisher]

@rfisher worst things have been said on this forum without the at least speaking for myself, When I used that term I didn’t single out any female skaters. There are several good examples of male skaters fitting that mold (certain male U.S. Olympic champion comes to mind) it’s ok to be offended and ok that term might not be good to use but don’t try and make it a bigger deal than it should be.

You're free to use the term if you wish. It's a hot button item for me and I always speak up when someone uses the term. Fortunately, most posters don't any more as I think more agree with me that it's an offensive term.

 

[Rock2]

I think this is so major (in a good way) I think would be cool to discuss in a new, separate thread!!

Just reading these new major changes..OMG, yes! limits to quads, and no backloading

Rule changes seek to restore balance to programs
Delegates at ISU congress vote to reduce quads, restrict backloading


http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/06/14/281232048

"No longer can skaters put all of their jumps in the second half of their programs, as Olympic champion Alina Zagitova of Russia did last season."

1. Allowed repetition of only one type of quad rather than being able to repeat two

2. Ended the practice of putting all or nearly all jumping passes in the second half of the short program and free skate

3. Quashed an urgent proposal made by the Netherlands to raise the senior age minimum from 15 to 17.

4. Updated Scale of Values for Quads, Triples and Throw Quads

#2 and #3 wouldn't have had to be put forth if panels were marking properly.

For #2, the CH mark should be dinged heavily (for Zag, maybe about 6 ish) for lack of balance. SS should be hit for the lack of speed and ice coverage in second half...and TR should be hit as there are practically none in second half.

As for #3, if someone could tell panels that you don't automatically get 9s for clean programs or a few 3/3 or quads....
I guess the other rule change where PCS is restricted if you have mistakes became a necessary evil because panels clearly weren't following the direction or spirit of the scoring in the last cycle...sigh.

Some of these rule changes are a good thing but it's at the same time sad that they were required to make panels do their job properly.

 

[el henry]

Okey dokey, as someone who is passionate about a “more athletic” sport (and I don’t necessarily agree with that term), I have this to say about attracting those fans.

Give it up. I have some small acquaintance with Eagles fans. They could care less if Nathan Chen lands 85 quads in 85 seconds. That will not bring them in. It’s figure skating, with 5’5” 120 pound guys who skate to music and wear costumes. And I don’t care if it’s an all black jumpsuit from Vera Wang, it’s from Vera Wang. They will not watch.

The ISU rules, to the extent they emphasize elements of the performance other than jumps (yes!!!!) may enhance what makes figure skating special, different and unique. And bring in folks who will appreciate figure skating.

For me, that’s a plus

 

[aftershocks]

Zagitova's FS worked from an artistic perspective, certainly as well as anyone else's.

I agree with your explanation of what 'code-whoring,' is and isn't. However, in the case of Zagitova, I don't agree that her program was completely satisfying 'from an artistic perspective.' There was too much overdone Eteri-camouflaging utilized to detract from Zagitova's youth, rather than any effort being made to embrace and support who she is as a person at this stage of her career. The aesthetics were all about ramming Kitri and Rusiya balletic tradition down our throats, which obviously some judges and fans truly love, hook line and sinker.


As you and others seem to agree, as far as the back-loading rules adjustment, it may be called the 'Zagitova' rule, but it's not about her specifically. Nor is it about stopping Zagitova and her training mates from being competitive, or the rule would not have passed. There was obviously a general consensus that an adjustment needed to be made regarding this rule in an effort for skaters and coaches to consider balancing program construction.


ETA:
I think I love you @alchemy void. Maybe you should go into the Mad Men world of advertising. #slammingthreeredbullsintwominutes !!! An apt description all the way, Jose.

 

[aftershocks]

Sorry, but I can't resist asking: Has the term 'quad-whoring' ever been used? If not, there'll surely be plenty of opportunities ahead of us, uh, for all disciplines except ice dance.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Code-whore/ing has fallen out of fashion on FSU, but it was absolutely used for all the disciples regularly between 2003-2006 (early COP days).

It was a point frequently used in the Lysacek vs. Weir arguments, for example. Evan was considered smarter for knowing how to code-whore in comparison to Johnny.

My memory of that time was that it wasn’t even used in a derogatory manner; that came later. It was considered good choreography and coaching for your skater to game the system. People lamented that Michelle wasn’t code-whoring.

 

[jlai]

You're free to use the term if you wish. It's a hot button item for me and I always speak up when someone uses the term. Fortunately, most posters don't any more as I think more agree with me that it's an offensive term.

As someone who studied linguistics, I believe perceptions of positive or negative connotations change over time and words by themselves do not have as much positive or negative connotations as one believes. How people use them and interpret them and tolerate them is what change over time. FOr instance, certain terms that were ok years ago are now considered offensive. That's just how language works, but it is not as if meanings and connotations are set in stone.

 

[aftershocks]

Code-whore/ing has fallen out of fashion on FSU, but it was absolutely used for all the disciples regularly between 2003-2006 (early COP days).

It was a point frequently used in the Lysacek vs. Weir arguments, for example. Evan was considered smarter for knowing how to code-whore in comparison to Johnny.

My memory of that time was that it wasn’t even used in a derogatory manner; that came later. It was considered good choreography and coaching for your skater to game the system. People lamented that Michelle wasn’t code-whoring.

^^ Wow, thanks. It's all somewhat coming back to me now (btw is that a song lyric?) ...

Anyway, you've got an excellent memory regarding the term's usage over the years, the skaters involved, and it's subsequent falling out of favor. What about 'quad-whoring'? It hasn't caught on yet?

 

[MacMadame]

I'm very happy they took away the extra bonus for backloading all the jumps. It should be a balanced program and not one who begins in the second half of the music.

If you think a program doesn't begin until the first jump, I can't agree. Spins and footwork are not filler used to mark time in between jumps.

So since I guess I touched some nerves, let’s go with “milking the system”

Let's not. All these terms, whether they are offensive or not, imply that a person is somehow cheating. What they are doing is using the system more effectively than other skaters.

Give it up. I have some small acquaintance with Eagles fans. They could care less if Nathan Chen lands 85 quads in 85 seconds. That will not bring them in. It’s figure skating, with 5’5” 120 pound guys who skate to music and wear costumes.

I don't see anyone saying anything about attracting fans. The point is that competitive figure skating is a sport, not a performance and therefore doing harder and harder programs should be a goal.

 

[DimaToe]

@MacMadame same thing. You are taking my words and turning them into something else. When did I say cheating? Yes they are using the system effectively, people will say that in their own way but this nitpicking of words is ridiculous.

 

[jlai]

If you think a program doesn't begin until the first jump, I can't agree. Spins and footwork are not filler used to mark time in between jumps.

I don't see anyone saying anything about attracting fans. The point is that competitive figure skating is a sport, not a performance and therefore doing harder and harder programs should be a goal.

Conceptionally I agree. That said, my issue with the second half bonus is that those skaters with great jumps in the first half (e.g. Osmond) cannot overcome technically girls who max out on the 10% bonus in the second half, even if these second half bonus skaters generally don't have as much oomph in their jumps as the bigger girls. And those who get sky high tes get sky high PCS too regardless. So right now the 10% bonus is such that there isn't another way for another skater who can overcome 10% bonus with quality elements.

I think there are ways around that, like 0% bonus for falls, or a lesser percent bonus on flawed jumps, and a fairer pcs marking, but the ISU didn't make those changes.

I remember Zagitova had some rather flawed short programs earlier in the season, and still got solid 60s in the short because of the bonuses, while girls who did clean programs get just that. I think the bonus system should be tweaked to reward quality more, but of course, it is easier to cut down on bonuses, sadly.

 

[aftershocks]

The latest episode of TSL includes discussion of the new ISU rules changes. I realize Dave can be his own worst enemy, but I agree with much of what he said (excepting the first 13 minutes of random convo not about skating, and the tasteless lapse in judgment at the very end of the broadcast). The best part re the rules change discussion begins at the mid-point of the broadcast about 41+. There's also a Mishin interview on GS Forum which Dave quotes from.

Per Mishin regarding the rules +5 GOE and the elimination of 30 seconds from men's programs: "The way to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Dave actually expresses himself quite well regarding not liking the +5 GOE change and the elimination of 30 seconds from men's programs. ITA with his impassioned points. It's true that removing 30 seconds from men's programs is not going to exactly solve the problem of lengthy competitions. The culprit is the time needed for Zamboni breaks, the unnecessary skater introductions prior to top skater warm-up sessions, and as Dave notes, the endless judging/ kiss 'n cry time. Dave accurately observes that with the new +5 GOE changes, "Judging [already] takes too long. Now it will take even longer..."

If not for Dave's snark and his negative rep in some quarters which has become a turn-off, Dave maybe could be quite the influencer. What he says regarding some of these rules changes (especially for the men) to me should have been a presentation front-and-center at the recent ISU Congress. Although of course ISU reps and officials only tend to listen to what they want to hear.

I agree with Dave's way of expressing some of what we are missing these days in skating and what we need to get back to for more complete and exciting programs. Dave mentions Paul Wylie spread eagles, Michelle Kwan change-edge spiral, Kurt Browning's iconic cigarette riff during his Casablanca performance which added so much to the program's character and flair. I would add: Brian Boitano's 1988 Sandra Bezic-choreographed sp during which he whisks ice from one of his blades and flicks it over his shoulder. And John Misha Petkevich's gorgeous delayed axels.

Per Dave: "It's like buying Prisma color markers instead of regular markers, because you can! I want to see skating breathe... expansive skating, good stroking... I don't care about the loss of seeing men do a 2-axel, but yes to seeing three Russian split jumps in a row..."

I particularly agree with Dave's views re the bad decision to eliminate 30 seconds from men's programs. Eliminating a jumping pass is fine, but it's counterproductive to then decrease programs by 30 seconds. That time could be used in the era of quads and IJS to add character and depth to programs.

 

[bardtoob]

THIS IS A SPORT. THE GOAL IS TO GET THE MOST POINTS. Skaters who do that aren't "whoring", they're just fcuking smarter and better athletes.

Now, now . . . There is no proof they are not whoring . . . it is just not happening during their athletic programs.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Oh no @bardtoob, you noticed that excerpt you have quoted, which when juxtaposed in isolation is like Hmmm, might that we all could actually be or at least... "**** smarter and better athletes."

 

[bardtoob]

^^ Oh no @bardtoob, you noticed that excerpt you have quoted, which when juxtaposed in isolation is like Hmmm, might that we all could actually be or at least... "**** smarter and better athletes."

I have definitely known a few "smarter and better athletes" that have also whored

 

[moebius]

So we go back to front loading jumps?

 

[aftershocks]

So we go back to front loading jumps?

Not necessarily. At least that's not the apparent aim of the rules adjustment.

 

[berthesghost]

Code-whoring specifically means doing something in your programs strictly for the purpose of earning greater base value or GOE. This 'something' will be anti-aesthetic and anti-musical and ...either because judges don't care or because fans don't know how to divine PCS...will appear to result in a higher score. Slutskaya's upright change of edge spins come to mind, lol.

Code-whoring doesn't mean any effort to increase your base value or GOE, just those efforts which visually detract from the program.

yes, but just as people scream “slut” at anyone who sleeps with more than two people in a 3 year period, people will hurl “copwhore” at anyone who beats their fav, ex: Evan in 2010.

Funny, I find the fandom and judges in general tend to be much more forgiving of a skater who has been deemed "artistic" but may be deficient technically, than they are of a skater who has been deemed a "jumper" but may not meet the narrow-minded definition of artistry this sport seems to hold.

sometimes. Although people like Zayak, Harding, Thomas,Ito, bonaly remain fan favs despite being jumpers with dubious artistry

 

[bardtoob]

Although people like Zayak, Harding, Thomas,Ito, bonaly remain fan favs despite being jumpers with dubious artistry

To be fair, Zayak, Harding, Ito, and Bonaly were doing unheard of content with 6+ triples of various kinds plus some quad attempts, which was unprecedented in terms of how choreography would be integrated into that.

Thomas did try the 3T-3T, but she could rely on the strength of her compulsory figures since she was only 2nd to Ivanova in that portion of the competition while also being more consistent than Ivanova in the SP and LP.

Had skating continued down the course it was going with Katarina and Jill, it would have been a real stagnant snooze

 

[overedge]

As I understand the new rule, skaters can still backload if they want. They just won't get bonus points for it.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If figure skating was a pure "stronger, higher, faster" kind of sport, there wouldn't be CH, IN, and performance points to replace that second mark, and it wouldn't be set to music.

 

[eurodance2001]

The answer to this is quite simple: What would Michelle Kwan do?

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

I hope these change's convince Ross Minor to continue and compete in at least a couple more seasons. He would of made it to the world and olympic's last season if this rule had been in there. My wife agrees.