The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Miloune]

Interesting point about something with character. By character do you mean portraying a story, where they correspond to a specific movie/theatre/opera character? That would be interesting. But my guess is they are not into it or they would have tried it already.

I stick to my point that this year's free dance is different: it has more moments where they "let go" than usual, and it's much more sexy/modern.

Agree on both points. Based on what they said in interviews, I don't think we'll ever see them do a FD based on character. They prefer to do their own interpretation of the music (not saying that others do not but you know what I mean).

And I agree that this year's FD is "sexier" than what they did before. I think that yes, every season we see the same kind of style but each time it's a different shade / angle of it. Like a spectrum.

 

[muffinplus]

What exactly do you expect them to do? Be less smooth? Have more shallow edges? For Guillaume to use his upper body less? For Gabriella to somehow change the way she emotes?

What do people want them to do? What counts as different? This is a genuine question...

I'm going to guess something that's not mellow, with a harder edge, or just a very different style of music/mood (like what Romain gave the Brits, not saying disco, but just something else). I think the second part of the FD is a little more hard edge but it's still the same aesthetic

I personally really enjoy the music and the program despite that

 

[twinklestar]

I'm going to guess something that's not mellow, with a harder edge, or just a very different style of music/mood (like what Romain gave the Brits, not saying disco, but just something else). I think the second part of the FD is a little more hard edge but it's still three same aesthetic

And with more rhythm. Like Ravel's Tzigane.

 

[Amantide]

I love P&C first part of the FD. That curve lift was so beautiful. I don't care much for the second part.
P&G FD remains the favorite FD so far, for me. But they are not P&C as skaters, though in terms of performance and interpretation they have nothing to look for in other teams. I would give them 10's right across the board.

 

[Bigbird]

I just love this and I might gonna steal it from you, if you don't mind of course

 

[forthewin]

I actually feel like the route they are taking is much harder than a 'character' dance. When you've got the storyline to help you, and the audience already knows who you're supposed to be, there's less convincing to be done. Creating a mood and an engaging 4minute dance when there's no clear theme is much, much harder and praise-worthy.

Oh, the usual crap. P/C are true art, it's harder to do mood dance than actual character dance. How arrogant. Is it really true? Do they really have the chops to pull off story telling or emoting raw passion? Or even dance in a different type of mood? I think their long strokes seriously limit them in expressing rhymes and tempos, so they have to resort to the only one setting they have. Don't make it more than what it's.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

I think having Gadbois as their coaches and training center helps a lot. I've noticed the GOEs for all Gadbois teams and we know only 1 or 2 or maybe 3 so far has deserved to be saved by GOEs. I'm not counting P/C because P/C don't need saving really.

Totally agree, I feel like +5,-5 GOE was created for the school lacking technique.... GOE should match at some point the level you get if not, we should go back to 6.0 scoring system!

 

[Peepsquick]

Does anyone think P/C's SD doesn't feel like a proper Tango? Where is the raw passion and chemistry between man and woman? It just seems another their usual FD. Beautiful but no emotions.

To me this RD is oozing emotion AND sensuality, so I really can/t relate to what you say.Explain, please.

 

[Peepsquick]

Oh, the usual crap. P/C are true art, it's harder to do mood dance than actual character dance. How arrogant. Is it really true? Do they really have the chops to pull off story telling or emoting raw passion? Or even dance in a different type of mood? I think their long strokes seriously limit them in expressing rhymes and tempos, so they have to resort to the only one setting they have. Don't make it more than what it's.

Give it up! V/M were/are V/M and P/C are also who they are. Enjoy both or just one but don't try to assert that your vision of ice dance is an absolute. What can't you see the beauty in different styles.

 

[annie_mg]

Oh, the usual crap. P/C are true art, it's harder to do mood dance than actual character dance. How arrogant. Is it really true? Do they really have the chops to pull off story telling or emoting raw passion? Or even dance in a different type of mood? I think their long strokes seriously limit them in expressing rhymes and tempos, so they have to resort to the only one setting they have. Don't make it more than what it's.

I don't know if it's crap, or arrogant, but it's definitely my opinion. Last time I checked, I was entitled to have one.

 

[VGThuy]

I definitely see characters and a story with P/C’s FD this season. The songs’ lyrics direct you to it.

To be honest, versatility is great and I think should be encouraged, but there is something to be said about skating authentically to your vision and point-of-view. Maybe they’ll do something “different” between now and 2022 but they will still skate like themselves. It’s like what Frank Carroll said in a retrospective interview about Michelle Kwan and how after being a 3-4 time world champ people kept pressuring her to change her style and be different and it may have gotten into her head...”it’s not like she’s going to skate like Ashley Wagner with a new choreographer all of a sudden.”

 

[annie_mg]

I definitely see characters and a story with P/C’s FD this season. The songs’ lyrics direct you to it.

Also in their facial expressions. The first song is obviously the 'happy' couple, while the second one is much more dramatic. Just look at Gabby's expression and how it changes before the spin.

 

[deegee]

I definitely see characters and a story with P/C’s FD this season. The songs’ lyrics direct you to it.

i see the argument for this, and i really like this program-- i actually teared up at the curve lift as they both leaned away from the center and opened their respective free arms up slowly in unison really evoking the feeling of new lovers opening up to a world that belongs only to them. but when i think of a team who had the ability to show us something new and different and truly innovative-- and whose pure abilities allowed them to adapt to rule changes and format changes-- i think of delobel and schoenfelder. they could show off all of their fantastic qualities whether in the compulsaries (remember the cowboy and saloon girl yankee polka and the pirate paso??), in the original dance, or in their free programs. they went from merlin to frida to bonnie and clyde to the piano to pink floyd with aplomb. and it was never just a change of musical styles or genres with them; each season brought new movements and moods from them.

i don't need to see papadakis and cizeron be another couple that they are not, but i think (most) of the critique of skating in the 'same style' is pretty fair, but only as far as their free dances are concerned. they've shown plenty of versatility with the execution of their short/rhythm dances year to year, for sure.

 

[VGThuy]

I think Delobel/Schoenfelder are a good example. Their programs sort of look and are constructed similarly, and they definitely had a distinct, unique style to their movements. They even repeated moves in their FDs. But everyone recognized that they attempted different sorts of dances and moods and themes.

 

[snoopy]

Kwan always looked and moved like kwan but Salome is very different than east of eden is very different than aranjuez. And as noted, she still got criticisms for being same old same old. PapCiz are staying a lot closer to their baseline than kwan ever did. Moonlight sonata was the biggest departure they’ve taken.

They have a right clearly to do what they want, but it is not an unreasonable criticism that they don’t stretch themselves.

 

[deegee]

I think Delobel/Schoenfelder are a good example. Their programs sort of look and are constructed similarly, and they definitely had a distinct, unique style to their movements. They even repeated moves in their FDs. But everyone recognized that they attempted different sorts of dances and moods and themes.

yes, true. but usually, if they did repeat moves, each time that move showed up they would change some aspect of it. like the move that my son called their 'boat move' where they faced each other and then leaned back away from each other until they were both parallel to the ice on one leg: when they first did that move it was in a straight line with both arms still in contact with the other's body. then the next time they did it on a curve. and then the next time with one arm free above their heads. and then when it showed up in their tango od, it was a quick transitional move between their final lift and the end of the dance with olivier getting up first and pulling isabelle still in the parallel-to-the-ice position into the final pose. gah. so thrilling.

 

[barbarafan]

What exactly do you expect them to do? Be less smooth? Have more shallow edges? For Guillaume to use his upper body less? For Gabriella to somehow change the way she emotes?

What do people want them to do? What counts as different? This is a genuine question...

I found them different.....Gabby still draws you in with her magic but I also felt high drama and more athleticism. I loved it

 

[Dobre]

Interesting point about something with character. By character do you mean portraying a story, where they correspond to a specific movie/theatre/opera character? That would be interesting. But my guess is they are not into it or they would have tried it already.

I stick to my point that this year's free dance is different: it has more moments where they "let go" than usual, and it's much more sexy/modern.

A story would be nice. I am a sucker for a great story. Though not all character programs require a story. I mean there are so many things. We've seen robots, circus programs, zombies, video game characters, etc. Not all character programs tell a story. Some just explore an interesting set of characters. Either attempt would be an interesting stretch.

Or an FD with a fast pace. Or one that explores a different kind of relationship.

You asked and I simply answered your question for me. This FD feels like the same thing to me. As does Hawayek & Baker's FD. As did Dubreil & Lauzon's successful free dance programs. If I enjoyed the style, I'm sure I would love many of P&C's free dance programs. But it's not my thing and only rarely have P&C ventured into what is--maybe never in the FD though I really liked the dark feel and the first half of their program in 2016-17. I did love their RD last season and also thought their Finnstep was terrific back when I saw it in 2013-14. Clearly it's a matter of style for me. I think as World Champions with umpteen points on the field, they could stretch and tackle so many interesting avenues. But as you say, my guess is that they are not into it. To them, this is variety.

And I can accept that. It isn't what I hoped for them earlier in their career. Back in 2015-16, I really thought "Well, they've been injured. They've had no time, and this isn't the year to stretch. But one day..." This would have been the year. And I've just accepted at this point that the style they love to perform isn't my cup of tea. There are many other dance teams in the World, and I love plenty of teams. I'm a bit sad that I won't love this one because I really thought they had the potential to do an amazing variety of dances. But that's life. And at least I know that they--like all dance teams--will be challenged to step outside their comfort zone in the RD.

I strongly disagree with anyone who doesn't think the ability to perform a character-based program is equally challenging to a program that interpretes the music without character. It is a different skill set, and I have great respect for teams that can sell me both.

 

[mollymgr]

I think a character based program can be quite challenging IMO. When you are focusing on edges, steps, timing, choreography etc. it is very easy to fall out of character, especially towards the end of the program. That's when a skater is at his/her lowest energy level, yet has to generate enough excitement in the program to end it on a memorable note. If it fizzles midway, it certainly won't have the impact intended to get good PCS scores.
I also wanted to add that just because someone wears costumes and skates to music that is supposed to portray certain characters, doesn't meant they are always doing it. A lot of times I'm totally with the interpretation. It has definitely been more of an issue with IJS and the difficulty of using the music cuts appropriately.

 

[Andora]

Does anyone think P/C's SD doesn't feel like a proper Tango? Where is the raw passion and chemistry between man and woman? It just seems another their usual FD. Beautiful but no emotions.

No, it's a real tango, and it's exceptional. I was surprised but I shouldn't be - their Paso from 2014 was my favourite of the year. They opened their reign with versatility that year - we just had to wait four years to see that same weight to their skating.

And I agree that this year's FD is "sexier" than what they did before. I think that yes, every season we see the same kind of style but each time it's a different shade / angle of it. Like a spectrum.

This is an effective description. I get a bit bored with their style personally, and this FD is for sure samey, but it's not like they aren't trying to broaden their scope. It's a different mood to start, and it's not anything like Moonlight Sonata. This is like the next evolutionary step from To Build A Home. At worst, it's a step in the right direction.

I definitely see characters and a story with P/C’s FD this season. The songs’ lyrics direct you to it.

To be honest, versatility is great and I think should be encouraged, but there is something to be said about skating authentically to your vision and point-of-view. Maybe they’ll do something “different” between now and 2022 but they will still skate like themselves. It’s like what Frank Carroll said in a retrospective interview about Michelle Kwan and how after being a 3-4 time world champ people kept pressuring her to change her style and be different and it may have gotten into her head...”it’s not like she’s going to skate like Ashley Wagner with a new choreographer all of a sudden.”

I agree with thiis. I think there's a way to push yourself and try new things authentically, like W&P have attempted in the past, vs what H&D are doing this year, for example. So, while I may have wanted something more outside P&C's wheelhouse, and I'm not super enamoured of this FD, it's not exactly nothing.

Kwan always looked and moved like kwan but Salome is very different than east of eden is very different than aranjuez. And as noted, she still got criticisms for being same old same old. PapCiz are staying a lot closer to their baseline than kwan ever did. Moonlight sonata was the biggest departure they’ve taken.

They have a right clearly to do what they want, but it is not an unreasonable criticism that they don’t stretch themselves.

This is also true, and a reminder that no top team is actually perfect. With how good P&C are, valid criticism like this isn't a bad thing and certainly keeps something for them to reach for.

(Though I think MS was more like Let Parc and well within their scope)

 

[Holy Headband]

In other words, they can't really break out their comfort zone and people are happily giving them a pass. This mellow mushy stuff is a bit tiring now.

I literally don’t care about P/C at all. I’m just telling you what they’re skating has the character of a tango and that tango is a complex dance with a wider emotional range than many people think.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

In other words, they can't really break out their comfort zone and people are happily giving them a pass. This mellow mushy stuff is a bit tiring now.

Is this about P&C? I watched last night, I love the costumes but I'm getting tired of pairs and dance choosing soft depressing dreary music.

 

[millyskate]

P&C have one outstanding program this year, and it's the RD. It's truly a gem IMO, choreographically and interpretation-wise. The tango section was off but I'm sure it will improve. Such a shame we'll only get to see it 3 times, it feels wrong that so much effort put into crafting that and we won't get to see it much.

For the FD... I wish, a little like 2 years ago, that they'd had the courage to use the last minute and a half of music for the whole program. The first generic half kind of kills the effect.
In the second half, there's a new character, a new movement universe we haven't see from them before. And it's incredibly well done - it would have really been the year or never to go for it.

It's made worse by the whole entire field this year minus Fear&Gibson going for lyrical music. We're bored before we get to see them skate and they don't quite succeed in reversing that feeling with this program. That last minute just comes too late.

 

[skategal]

P&C have one outstanding program this year, and it's the RD. It's truly a gem IMO, choreographically and interpretation-wise. The tango section was off but I'm sure it will improve. Such a shame we'll only get to see it 3 times, it feels wrong that so much effort put into crafting that and we won't get to see it much.

For the FD... I wish, a little like 2 years ago, that they'd had the courage to use the last minute and a half of music for the whole program. The first generic half kind of kills the effect.
In the second half, there's a new character, a new movement universe we haven't see from them before. And it's incredibly well done - it would have really been the year or never to go for it.

It's made worse by the whole entire field this year minus Fear&Gibson to go for lyrical music. We're bored before we get to see them skate and they don't quite succeed in reversing that feeling with this program. That last minute just comes too late.

I agree completely. The second half is stunning and the first half lets down the FD. I hope they can tweak the first half to make it a more complete experience.

 

[Ka3sha]

So, apparently Zhulin decided that 2 blues programs for top three Russian teams is not enough and choreographed a blues EX for SinKats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37RbrlhFoK0


Rewatched top-three today with Bobrova's comments - interesting, that she was at the Olympiskii rink when SinKats started working on their RD with Zhulin, and she couldn't believe that Victoria will be able to execute that step sequence
in the RD, especially in the end of the program.
For me that StSq is the highlight of the entire program.

She also mentioned that Victoria is still dealing with a knee injury, so I hope that both Vika and Tiffany (who also had some problems this off-season) will get better soon and their injuries won't bother them later in the season.

 

[VGThuy]

P/C floated on the ice, they're so fluid it's hypnotising. I think this FD has room to grow in terms of choreography but I love the mood they aimed for, I love Gaby's costume and the humming of the music... *sigh* I'm in heaven.

Edit : and really, like, seeing it live, you can feel the smoothness wash over you. If that makes sense...

I absolutely agree with this. IMO, the humming of the first half was musical heaven for me and something that makes their program go beyond. It sets up the arc of the program. I understand the mood and style of music makes people think it's more of the same this season or a continuation of P/C's other programs, but IMO, this program is their least abstract and most literal program. They are matching the story of the lyrics, are in-character, and doing steps to show that character. They aren't just interpreting a mood. The beautiful and non-generic duet by Yamagata and LaMontagne leading up to the Yamagata's rockier declaration of independence (but is it really as she's still yearning) is what makes this program complete. The only issue I have is that I wish there was a small piece in-between to transition from the declaration of longing and devotion to the declaration of no longer being devoted (possibly trying to convince themselves) in "Sunday Afternoon" but that might be too much to ask for in a 4 minute FD AND the way that curve lift is choreographed to the final part of "Duet" into "Sunday Afternoon" is choreographic perfection.

 

[Ka3sha]

I know that the first part of P/C FD looks familiar to what they have already done, but it is mesmerizing and the step sequence is so beautifully choreographed.
Am not sure what to think about the second part yet.
And I absolutely loved Gabby's dress (or better say top and skirt)

 

[Miloune]

I absolutely agree with this. IMO, the humming of the first half was musical heaven for me and something that makes their program go beyond. It sets up the arc of the program. I understand the mood and style of music makes people think it's more of the same this season or a continuation of P/C's other programs, but IMO, this program is their least abstract and most literal program. They are matching the story of the lyrics, are in-character, and doing steps to show that character. They aren't just interpreting a mood. The beautiful and non-generic duet by Yamagata and LaMontagne leading up to the Yamagata's rockier declaration of independence (but is it really as she's still yearning) is what makes this program complete. The only issue I have is that I wish there was a small piece in-between to transition from the declaration of longing and devotion to the declaration of no longer being devoted (possibly trying to convince themselves) in "Sunday Afternoon" but that might be too much to ask for in a 4 minute FD AND the way that curve lift is choreographed to the final part of "Duet" into "Sunday Afternoon" is choreographic perfection.

Thanks for that insight! I'm gonna check out the complete lyrics of both songs right now lol! But I agree, in a way it's the most literal work they've done, with maybe Build a home.

 

[allezfred]

Papadakis/Cizeron could skate to Mary Had A Little Lamb and they would still be head and shoulders above the rest of the field. You may be bored with the music they are choosing (and there’s no doubt it’s THEIR choice unlike the era of Shpilbland and Zoueva ), but no one can skate like them. If you can’t see the quality then you are blind.

No surprise I love the choice and for me it is something different than what they have done before.

 

[ballettmaus]

Oh, the usual crap. P/C are true art, it's harder to do mood dance than actual character dance. How arrogant.

You clearly aren't a P/C but why not simply answer the question without dissing the skaters you don't like? I happen to be interested in that as well, what would you like to see from them? What should they do differently in your opinion?

Is it really true? Do they really have the chops to pull off story telling or emoting raw passion?

You can't dance lyrical without (raw) passion. (Well, of course, you can but then you wouldn't be able to engage the audience).

They may not be telling a movie, opera or ballet story but those aren't the only kind of stories out there. They are telling the story that the music inspires them to tell, that the music makes them feel.