The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[kittysk8ts]

Good luck to P/C and all of their fans today! It was a long wait to see the programs. I think they are going to be spectacular and will have been worth the wait

 

[casken]

Do Smart/Diaz have some sort of political backing going on? Otherwise, I don't get their GOE on elements or most of the PCS at all.

I don't like the Parsons that much, but I thought they ate S/D alive in the RD in France.

 

[VGThuy]

Do Smart/Diaz have some sort of political backing going on? Otherwise, I don't get their GOE on elements or most of the PCS at all.

I don't like the Parsons that much, but I thought they ate S/D alive in the RD in France.

I think having Gadbois as their coaches and training center helps a lot. I've noticed the GOEs for all Gadbois teams and we know only 1 or 2 or maybe 3 so far has deserved to be saved by GOEs. I'm not counting P/C because P/C don't need saving really.

 

[RoseRed]

I think the judges really like S/D's tango, which I get because it's very strong (performance-wise).

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I have to say, Papadakis/Cizeron's tango was really gorgeous. Lovely maturity, great movement. I was very impressed.

 

[MarieM]

Yes that RD is one of the best of the season choreographically speaking. So it does deserve tons of GOE on some things. But IMO she's not at that level yet at all.

 

[casken]

I think the judges really like S/D's tango, which I get because it's very strong (performance-wise).

The choreography is good, but I thought the actual skating and performance of it was weak in France in particular. They got good GOE on the tango pattern which I don't get at all either.

 

[yurokis40]

political judging here Piper and Paul were screwed again level 2 twizzles really they were the most difficult, and lo and behold sinitsina katsalapov skate last again I will be pissed if piper and paul don't make the final.

 

[Dobre]

The choreography is good, but I thought the actual skating and performance of it was weak in France in particular. They got good GOE on the tango pattern which I don't get at all either.

Neither do I. I like the program. But GOE is supposed to be execution, not presentation. A good program shouldn't pull it up. And Popova & Mozgov are no slouches in the "looks good" department. And I don't love the Parsons' presentation, but they are getting the job done technically more than S&D and H&B and getting shallow GOE scores.

 

[allezfred]

Papadakis/Cizeron in their first competition of the season showed their absolute class. No team competing comes close.

 

[starrynight]

I think the issues with the levels this season expose a lot of the problems with ice dance. What drives me the most nuts is when you read or hear commentary like 'fantastic smooth Tango Romantica class of the field' and it was actually a level base or a level 1 that was propped up with GOE. It's so clear that no one knows what they are even seeing. It's the ice dance equivalent of praising popped jumps, step outs or falls.

By the time the protocols are published everyone has moved on.

And so much of the coverage of ice dance (at least what I've seen) is pretending that the epidemic of low levels disguised with GOE isn't happening. Probably because it isn't affecting the results.

It's really impacting on my ability to take ice dance seriously. I think I'd feel so much better if a coach gave a frank interview or there was an article discussing it and acknowledging the issue.

We are just in a 'who cares about the RD TES anyway' phase that I don't think is good for ice dance in the long term.

 

[VGThuy]

This is like classic ice dance. Nobody really cared about the minute details of a pattern step or if they cleanly hit all the edges and turns in their FD step sequences/OD SBS step, etc. They just saw which teams looked like they had more difficulty and who looked good doing it and wanted the team who had that to win. Plus, which team had the best programs and danced the best.

 

[starrynight]

It's questionable how it can be classified as a sport.

Lol I feel like I'm so late to the party on this one. I think all long term ice dance fans reconciled and made peace with the fact that ice dance isn't as much of a sport as singles or pairs decades ago.

 

[mollymgr]

I have said it before and I'll say it again. The wide span of GOE just gives more power to the judges. IMO the tech panels levels can be negated by a high or low GOE. I'm seeing skater reputations factor in this too. Ice dance judging in particular was always complicated but I think these new changes just made it worse. It needs more objective criteria rather than a system to magnify subjectivity.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't know. Some times I felt the callers had too much power considering how levels are determined in ice dance. But at the same time, a lot of my fave teams were able to take advantage of that and it helped them fight preconceived hierarchies because the BV couldn't be denied...but that only works if the judges score a bunch of teams so close together in PCS and GOE that BV makes the difference.

 

[mjb52]

But aren't the keypoints only a small part? I looked this up after whatever the last Grand Prix was where this came up and it started to make more sense - the keypoints are just a fraction of the pattern and it's easy to miss them, so you can get bad levels but still be good overall? And it's not disruptive in the way wiping out on a huge jump is.

I still think it needs to be adjusted but it didn't seem as like 100% outrageous once I researched it; at the same time, I'm not totally sure my understanding of it is correct either!

 

[starrynight]

For the 2019/2020 season there will be a 'Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence' skated to one of the following rhythms: quickstep, blues, march, polka or foxtrot.

So there is no set step sequence and teams have to make up their own. Which I'm sure will be nowhere near as difficult as Tango Romantica.

I bet a lot of the teams are holding out for that one.

It might also have the effect of creating a mini FD and more or less doing away with the RD.

A stark contrast to this season. Although coaches with a lot of teams will have their work cut out making up new patterns for each of their teams.

 

[kates8]

I really think that lifts where the lady just jumps up on a partners lap while he squats down or where they jump on his boot and lean out need to be lowered down a level or two. Its not the fault of the skaters to take advantage of this, but i find it unbalanced that these types of lifts get easy scores and big GOEs (for the top teams atleast) whereas other teams are breaking more boundaries to stand out with more interesting lifts and getting lower scores.

 

[Katha]

I don't know. Some times I felt the callers had too much power considering how levels are determined in ice dance. But at the same time, a lot of my fave teams were able to take advantage of that and it helped them fight preconceived hierarchies because the BV couldn't be denied...but that only works if the judges score a bunch of teams so close together in PCS and GOE that BV makes the difference.

Yes, I'm really torn on this. IMO COP has really opened up ice dance judging and made movement for teams much easier. OTOH, I've always held the opinion that the callers have a lot of power in this set-up and IMO throughout the years there's been some really side-eye worthy stuff going on. But giving the judging panel so much influence through GOE opens up another can of worms...so, yeah. Idk.

 

[starrynight]

But aren't the keypoints only a small part? I looked this up after whatever the last Grand Prix was where this came up and it started to make more sense - the keypoints are just a fraction of the pattern and it's easy to miss them, so you can get bad levels but still be good overall? And it's not disruptive in the way wiping out on a huge jump is.

I still think it needs to be adjusted but it didn't seem as like 100% outrageous once I researched it; at the same time, I'm not totally sure my understanding of it is correct either!

I think to be a sport there needs to be a technical risk component.

If, for example, men's singles was judged the same way, Patrick Chan would win everything all the time because his basic skating is beautiful.

I really think that lifts where the lady just jumps up on a partners lap while he squats down or where they jump on his boot and lean out need to be lowered down a level or two. Its not the fault of the skaters to take advantage of this, but i find it unbalanced that these types of lifts get easy scores and big GOEs (for the top teams atleast) whereas other teams are breaking more boundaries to stand out with more interesting lifts and getting lower scores.

Hubbell/Donohue have a lift in their RD where her boot is only an inch or two off the ice because it is just leaning on Zach' foot. It's more of a lean than a lift.

I initially thought that was risky because it would only take a wobble for her to touch the ice and the lift to be invalidated. But it's ticking all the boxes.

 

[VGThuy]

I think to be a sport there needs to be a technical risk component.

If, for example, men's singles was judged the same way, Patrick Chan would win everything all the time because his basic skating is beautiful.

But that was the case for a lot of seasons AND even when the medal contenders in 2018 passed him by, Patrick was still able to score higher above other men even when he skated with multiple falls. I get what you're saying though. I honestly didn't feel anything when Navka/Kostomorov won their gold medal because I knew they had it in the bag no matter how many levels they'd lose or whatever because BV didn't determine their placement. I'm sure that's how some felt about 1998 Olympics when some non-fans didn't understand why Pasha was crying so much because everyone knew they'd win.

 

[Bigbird]

Pap. and Ciz. were really lovely today, it just shows you how much dancing and pure sophistication can really lift the quality of skating. Everything was just spot on, Gui is just masterful and Gabby compliments him perfectly.

I really didn't understand S/K's scores. I find the more I watch them I just see two people skating really fast with very little connection to themselves or the tango itself. However, speed counts and the package that Zhulin has given them is good.

G/P though classy and talented skaters, this RD sort of feels flat and dated in comparison to the other teams or maybe they were too nervous today? The music, in particular, feels a bit dated.

I also really like Smart and Diaz and Hawayek and Baker, hope they have better skates in the FD.

EDIT: But still my favourite RD is H/D and the dancer with the best Tango expression and posturing is Madison Hubbell. The GPF is gonna be HOT!!

 

[yurokis40]

Pap. and Ciz. were really lovely today, it just shows you how much dancing and pure sophistication can really lift the quality of skating. Everything was just spot on, Gui is just masterful and Gabby compliments him perfectly.

I really didn't understand S/K's scores. I find the more I watch them I just see two people skating really fast with very little connection to themselves or the tango itself. However, speed counts and the package that Zhulin has given them is good.

G/P though classy and talented skaters, this RD sort of feels flat and dated in comparison to the other teams or maybe they were too nervous today? The music, in particular, feels a bit dated.

I also really like Smart and Diaz and Hawayek and Baker, hope they have better skates in the FD.

EDIT: But still my favourite RD is H/D and the dancer with the best Tango expression and posturing is Madison Hubbell. The GPF is gonna be HOT!!

I didn't get that feeling at all with G&P , I thought their tango was very classy and nuanced with some great elements they should be second than again this is the same team that changed their free dance last year 2 months before the Olympics and made it work their is still lots of time between now and worlds to do that.

 

[starrynight]

But that was the case for a lot of seasons AND even when the medal contenders in 2018 passed him by, Patrick was still able to score higher above other men even when he skated with multiple falls. I get what you're saying though. I honestly didn't feel anything when Navka/Kostomorov won their gold medal because I knew they had it in the bag no matter how many levels they'd lose or whatever because BV didn't determine their placement. I'm sure that's how some felt about 1998 Olympics when some non-fans didn't understand why Pasha was crying so much because everyone knew they'd win.

True. Although the ability to actually increase the technical elements gave skaters such as Yuzuru, Shoma, Javier etc the ability to actually pass.

Ice dance is driving me insane LOL. Its probably scrolling through twitter and seeing the ISU, Jackie Wong, Inside Skating, International Skating Magazine etc accounts all endlessly tripping over themselves praising level base and level 1 Tangos, oblivious to the problems every team is having with the RD which is making it worse.

 

[casken]

There probably should be no GOE for the compulsory sequence. You either do the features and get the points, or you don't.

Judges can reward proper interpretation, character, posture, form, etc of the sequence in the PCS.

 

[Bigbird]

I didn't get that feeling at all with G&P , I thought their tango was very classy and nuanced with some great elements they should be second than again this is the same team that changed their free dance last year 2 months before the Olympics and made it work their is still lots of time between now and worlds to do that.

But somehow the judges are not picking up on that, even if they found themselves in third place, I didn't expect them to be so far behind. Oh well, we'll see what the FD brings, it's one of my favourites of the season as well as H/B.

 

[casken]

With all the over Bobrova's posture every time she was out on the ice, Gilles breaks at the waist during the Tango Romantic sequence noticeably at times, but a lot of people overlook it.

I like G&P, but that's the most noticeable difference between them and their closest competitors (in this case S&k) to me.

 

[yurokis40]

the tech panel was really harsh with them still trying to figure out why they got level 2 twizzles.

 

[yurokis40]

With all the over Bobrova's posture every time she was out on the ice, Gilles breaks at the waist during the Tango Romantic sequence noticeably at times, but a lot of people overlook it.

I like G&P, but that's the most noticeable difference between them and their closest competitors (in this case S&k) to me.

okay explain the level 2 twizzles

 

[Dobre]

But aren't the keypoints only a small part? I looked this up after whatever the last Grand Prix was where this came up and it started to make more sense - the keypoints are just a fraction of the pattern and it's easy to miss them, so you can get bad levels but still be good overall?

I count 21 steps in the keypoints for the pattern this season. (If not counting the men's & women's steps separately, in which case there would be many more). There are 49 steps total. So no, I wouldn't say the keypoints are a small part. They are a huge chunk of the pattern this season. I think this has to be a large part of why so many teams are having such a hard time. Last year, there was only 1 part of the pattern, and the keypoints only included 8 steps.

I would also say that if some teams are hitting more of those steps--and some are--it is clearly a hard thing to accomplish and should absolutely be a separator.




Note: I can't imagine all the people arguing for the return of compulsories on this board over the past few years were arguing that we really needed them so we could ignore the steps and just mark teams based on what "looks good." After all, we don't need a pattern for that. So what exactly is the point of the pattern or the execution scores if the teams that execute the pattern correctly are not getting higher execution scores? (Also I don't think there's such a thing as a "dancier" pattern. It's the same pattern, and it wasn't introduced or invented by any of these teams).

 

[thvu]

okay explain the level 2 twizzles

Something tells me you've never ready the technical handbooks, and your first thought is "conspiracy!"

I'm only counting two additional features, one from Group A and one Group C. The feature from Group B they are trying to get, "changing the level of the skating leg (knee) with a continuous motion," didn't count. It's part of the 2nd twizzle set, and they don't start changing "the level of the skating leg" until 1.5 rotations in. For a feature to count, it needs to be started/attained within the first 0.5 rotations. Even if a couple does a 6 rotation twizzle set (G&P's 2nd set was 5 rotations), the feature still needs to be attained within the first 0.5 rotations.

It's arguable they attained a second Group A feature, "core of body is shifted off vertical axis." I would give it to them. Regardless, that leaves them without a Group B feature, which means they can't get higher than level 2. Level 3 requires 3 additional features from 3 different groups, and level 4 requires 4 additional features from 3 different groups.