The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[kittysk8ts]

Fascinating reading here about politicking in ice dance on Ambesi's Kiss&Cry:

Go to Episode 3 - Ice Dance and about half way down the page and they pose this question and discuss:

Speaking of judging and Ice Dance, the judges draw by number was released recently. Since politics play a huge role in Ice Dance, how will this draw influence the biggest competitions of the season?

https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/166669560580/kiss-cry-episode-3

 

[mirage]

I just saw the French fd moonlight sonata on youtube , aside from this style is there anything else they know how to do, V&M should win Olympic gold in a walk.

I think V&M will win OG, but P&C free dance had me in goose bumps. They are so fast (even shows on video) and fluid and the choregraphy has so many nuances and captures the music points - it is brilliant! I am in awe at their skating!

V&M are also stunning. They have brought so much back to the ice I am an absolute fan now. MR is wonderful, skating phenomenal, but I prefer Carmen (IMO similar program).

P&C will have developed a similarly diverse set of programs by the time they are the age of V&M.

P&C with a sliver over V&M in the free! V&M - O GOLD x2!

 

[Dobre]

What's up with Agafonova/Ucar? They were clearly progressing through the last few seasons and had one of my favorite performances from last season. The last half of their FD at European Championships was effervescent and the audience responded to their joy and passion with a loud ovation (they finished 9th in the FD, which was a great result). This season, they look like they've regressed. Injuries?

Agafanova & Ucar actually had a pretty bumpy ride through the 2016 Worlds after having to leave Zhulin mid-season. They dropped five spots at Worlds and missed the FD, then had a challenging start last year, but they really made headway throughout last year--getting back on track and having a great post season.

A&U have gotten a much later start to this competitive season and had no time to respond to feedback between Rostelecom & Skate Canada. (No idea why the later start). Last season, they went to the Dance Chicago event and the U.S. Classic prior to Skate America. Their scores at the first two events were pretty weak, but by Skate America they were more competitive. I guess we wait & see how their season develops. My guess is that 1. their coaching staff responds to the feedback and the programs get stronger and 2. they make more progress in the late-season Challengers and at Europeans.

All that said, I am kind of hoping they return to last season's LP. It was beautiful. I don't usually ever say this with a dance program, but 1. They have made the attempt with a new program. 2. The music & style of the program don't compare to last season's. The movement is complex & halting, and the theme seems to be interfering with the emotion of the program. 3. This may be their last competitive season, and I would really like them to have a successful one. I like the potential of their SD, but obviously it needs more training time.

 

[RoseRed]

Agafanova & Ucar actually had a pretty bumpy ride through the 2016 Worlds after having to leave Zhulin mid-season. They dropped five spots at Worlds and missed the FD, then had a challenging start last year, but they really made headway throughout last year--getting back on track and having a great post season.

A&U have gotten a much later start to this competitive season and had no time to respond to feedback between Rostelecom & Skate Canada. (No idea why the later start). Last season, they went to the Dance Chicago event and the U.S. Classic prior to Skate America. Their scores at the first two events were pretty weak, but by Skate America they were more competitive. I guess we wait & see how their season develops. My guess is that 1. their coaching staff responds to the feedback and the programs get stronger and 2. they make more progress in the late-season Challengers and at Europeans.

All that said, I am kind of hoping they return to last season's LP. It was beautiful. I don't usually ever say this with a dance program, but 1. They have made the attempt with a new program. 2. The music & style of the program don't compare to last season's. The movement is complex & halting, and the theme seems to be interfering with the emotion of the program. 3. This may be their last competitive season, and I would really like them to have a successful one. I like the potential of their SD, but obviously it needs more training time.

What I found a bit weird was how mad they seemed about the scores. She was saying unbelievable after they got their SD marks. It didn't seem to me that they were just mad at themselves (eg. Nic Nadeau at ONT in one of his KnCs looked diguested when the marks came up, but with himself for how he skated), but maybe I'm wrong.

I don't bring this up to be negative, I was just surprised because the marks were almost exactly the same as at Rostelecom and they didn't seem much better to my untrained eye. They seemed surprised by the marks though.

 

[Coco]

What should Zhulin do about S/K? I can't imagine that having Nikita around is helping the overall training environment for his other skaters.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

Fascinating reading here about politicking in ice dance on Ambesi's Kiss&Cry:

Go to Episode 3 - Ice Dance and about half way down the page and they pose this question and discuss:

Speaking of judging and Ice Dance, the judges draw by number was released recently. Since politics play a huge role in Ice Dance, how will this draw influence the biggest competitions of the season?

https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/166669560580/kiss-cry-episode-3

This was interesting, thanks! I like that they point out fans can rewatch things on Youtube a million times while judges are seeing the program live and then marking it. I have to remind myself of that as well as the fact that sometimes they might not see things from the same angle and miss small mistakes/errors. Of course the breakdown of the panel by school and how that may influence things was interesting as well.

 

[MarieM]

I disagree. The cameras of the judges do catch more than those that put the live feed to the networks. They shouldn't be able to miss anything, if they choose to.
When they do miss something, it's more because they have little time to mark all the elements. But you can see how often they do rewatch elements if you sit behind them.
IMO they can mark everything during the alloted time they get. Sure they don't get to nitpick on everything since the TECH panel is there for that, but they IMO have more than enough time as it is.

The problem is that judges are not "professionals" since they are still nominated by individual federations. That has always been the key problem with figure skating alltogether.

 

[chapis]

I disagree. The cameras of the judges do catch more than those that put the live feed to the networks. They shouldn't be able to miss anything, if they choose to.
.

But they travel with their own cameramen? because if they hire local cameramen at each event, they could be getting inept people like the ones we had in Helsinki and 4cc 2017.

 

[forthewin]

I think V&M will win OG, but P&C free dance had me in goose bumps. They are so fast (even shows on video) and fluid and the choregraphy has so many nuances and captures the music points - it is brilliant! I am in awe at their skating.

I actually think P/C are behind the music in this FD sometimes. So not really sure about the fast part you observed.

 

[Dobre]

She was saying unbelievable after they got their SD marks. I was just surprised because the marks were almost exactly the same as at Rostelecom and they didn't seem much better to my untrained eye. They seemed surprised by the marks though.

Of course Agafanova & Ucar were disappointed, and I'm sure with both sets of results, though the field at Rostelecom was deeper. There, A&U finished behind one team that they defeated at the end of last season. At Skate Canada, they were placed below two (Smart & Diaz and Lorenz & Polizoakis, plus a Canadian team that has only been together one season. Plus, Kaliszek & Spodyriev had a fall on the twizzles).

But I'm not ready to give up on A&U yet. They had mistakes they need to fix. They finished behind Muramoto & Reed, Smart & Diaz, and Min & Gamelin at the U.S. Classic last season. And bested them all at Worlds. The reality is that spots 15-23 at Worlds last season flipped placements throughout the year. (Muramoto & Reed were at the top of that group in 2016 and the bottom in 2017 and have the highest Season's Best of the lot this fall). Anything can happen here.

 

[barbarafan]

What should Zhulin do about S/K? I can't imagine that having Nikita around is helping the overall training environment for his other skaters.

Siberia for him....Find her another partner...In time she will stop missing the abuse.

 

[marbri]

I disagree. The cameras of the judges do catch more than those that put the live feed to the networks. They shouldn't be able to miss anything, if they choose to.
When they do miss something, it's more because they have little time to mark all the elements. But you can see how often they do rewatch elements if you sit behind them.
IMO they can mark everything during the alloted time they get. Sure they don't get to nitpick on everything since the TECH panel is there for that, but they IMO have more than enough time as it is.

The problem is that judges are not "professionals" since they are still nominated by individual federations. That has always been the key problem with figure skating alltogether.

Yes. The panel has their own person taking video that they use to review things, they aren't watching the same feed we are online but, and it may have changed from when I was familiar with how they watched replays, they couldn't choose every element, there was a limit to how much they could rewatch. Even the tech panel couldn't call for a review on every element performed (they are required to attend practices as part of their job so they can familiarize themselves with the elements which aids them during competition). I know others have their own forms of shorthand so they can write on papers symbols as the elements are performed so they keep their eye on the ice. But the reality is that anyone can blink and miss something that happens quickly, I actually know coaches who train their kids to rebound asap with a smile on their face whenever they make a mistake because there is always that chance the judge may not have been looking at that precise moment so don't advertise it. So if they blinked and missed it they might not review that element if the 99.9% of it they watched looked perfect to them.

 

[emilieh]

But they travel with their own cameramen? because if they hire local cameramen at each event, they could be getting inept people like the ones we had in Helsinki and 4cc 2017.

At the major ISU events (Grand Prix and Championships at least, not sure about Challengers), I believe they have their own camera operator from Swiss Timing, who also brings and manages the computer equipment for judging. I've seen one guy in particular for at least 6 or 7 years, so there's some continuity and familiarity with what the judges need for their replays.

 

[firstflight]

Quick question I’m sure someone on here knows the answer to: When Zahorski teamed with Guerreiro, why didn’t they switch to represent any of the other countries one of them held citizenship for? Like Australia? Was it that to stay with Zhulin they needed to represent Russia (which would make sense)? Or that they each have partial Russian ancestry?

I’m just thinking they definitely could have been at this upcoming Olympics if they had been competing for Australia the past few seasons, Katia-and-Harley-style.

 

[starrynight]

Quick question I’m sure someone on here knows the answer to: When Zahorski teamed with Guerreiro, why didn’t they switch to represent any of the other countries one of them held citizenship for? Like Australia? Was it that to stay with Zhulin they needed to represent Russia (which would make sense)? Or that they each have partial Russian ancestry?

I’m just thinking they definitely could have been at this upcoming Olympics if they had been competing for Australia the past few seasons, Katia-and-Harley-style.

I have often wondered this too, as I'm sure Jonathan would have had a much clearer path to Worlds and the Olympics skating for Australia. My thought is that it could be a funding issue. I'm sure the funding in Australia is peanuts compared to being on the Russian national team.

 

[Debbie S]

I think citizenship for Tiffany would have been a problem. Isn't the rule that unless she was living there full-time, the only way she could become an AUS citizen was through marriage?

 

[Alilou]

I don't think it needs to be full time. Katya Alexandrovskaya doesn't live there full time - she and Harley train half the time in Russia and she got citizenship.

 

[Sylvia]

I found this interview from the end of the 2012-13 season when Guerreiro was skating with Ekaterina (Katia) Pushkash: http://www.figureskating-online.com/pushkash-guerreiro.html

Q: Jonathan was born in Australia and has Australian citizenship. Did you ever think to compete for Australia as it would be much easier to become the top team of the country? Please elaborate the pros and cons.
A: It's difficult, because in figure skating a lot of things have to do with chance and the right time and the right field and I have already been in the top of juniors with my ex-partner [Riazanova] and Katia, so I always thought it was possible to do seniors. But, you know, things change, partnerships break up, people change coaches... I still believe there is hope, even in Russia.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Quick question I’m sure someone on here knows the answer to: When Zahorski teamed with Guerreiro, why didn’t they switch to represent any of the other countries one of them held citizenship for? Like Australia? Was it that to stay with Zhulin they needed to represent Russia (which would make sense)? Or that they each have partial Russian ancestry?

I’m just thinking they definitely could have been at this upcoming Olympics if they had been competing for Australia the past few seasons, Katia-and-Harley-style.

Why shouldn't they compete for Russia?
Jonathan is Russian, they have good support, Russian coaches, and the only reason they didn't come out on international arena sooner is because the French federation didnt want to release Tiffany.
The only reason they might have released her sooner is if they didn't think she had potential.

These two are a good prospect for the future in Russian ice dance.

Ps. I haven't even heard of Katia and Harley until now. What is their world rank?

 

[Sylvia]

Ps. I haven't even heard of Katia and Harley until now. What is their world rank?

They're a pair team (WS #24, SR #5). They've qualified for the JGP Final and an Olympic spot for AUS.

ISU SB scores of 70+ in SD so far this season:
1 82.68 Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR CAN ISU GP Skate Canada International 2017 27.10.2017
2 81.10 Gabriella PAPADAKIS / Guillaume CIZERON FRA ISU GP Cup of China (78.09 at ISU CS Finlandia Trophy)
3 77.47 Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE CAN ISU GP Skate Canada International 2017 27.10.2017
4 77.30 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017 20.10.2017
5 76.33 Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV RUS ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017 20.10.2017
6 76.08 Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2017 27.10.2017
7 74.00 Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE ITA ISU CS Minsk Arena Ice Star 2017 27.10.2017
8 72.66 Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA ISU GP Cup of China
-- 72.34 Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV RUS ISU GP Cup of China
9 71.79 Penny COOMES / Nicholas BUCKLAND GBR ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017 28.09.2017
10 71.32 Alexandra STEPANOVA / Ivan BUKIN RUS ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017 20.10.2017
11 70.26 Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI ITA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017 15.09.2017

 

[firstflight]

Why shouldn't they compete for Russia?
Jonathan is Russian, they have good support, Russian coaches, and the only reason they didn't come out on international arena sooner is because the French federation didnt want to release Tiffany.
The only reason they might have released her sooner is if they didn't think she had potential.

These two a good prospect for the future in Russian ice dance.

Ps. I haven't even heard of Katia and Harley until now. What is their world rank?

Isn't he half-Portuguese/half-Russian? If so, why would you say he is Russian?

 

[Coquelicot14]

Why not? He has the passport. His mother is Russian. Having one parent from another country does not make you not Russian. We are a multi-ethnic society and there are many kids with parents from different ethnical backgrounds.

Pavel Bure probably has French roots (last name), Aivazovski is a great Russian painter of Armenian descent , Sikharulidze is a Russian figure skater whose father is Georgian...


And, of course, I am not saying that he is not Portugese as well.

 

[firstflight]

Why not? He has the passport. His mother is Russian. Having one parent from another country does not make you not Russian. We are a multi-ethnic society and there are many kids with parents from different ethnical backgrounds.

Pavel Bure has French roots, Aivazovski is a great Russian painter, Sikharulidze is a Russian figure skater...

And, of course, I am not saying that he is not Portugese as well.

Oh, this was just a matter of semantics. I understand what you mean now. In the US, if someone is half Chinese, half Caucasian, for example, most wouldn't say "I'm Chinese." Most would say "I'm half-Chinese, half-white," or some people use the term "hapa."

 

[Coquelicot14]

Oh, this was just a matter of semantics. I understand what you mean now. In the US, if someone is half Chinese, half Caucasian, for example, most wouldn't say "I'm Chinese." Most would say "I'm half-Chinese, half-white," or some people use the term "hapa."

Actually, in US most people would say "I am American" if someone bugs them.

It made me think of this youtube...

https://youtu.be/DWynJkN5HbQ

 

[firstflight]

Actually, in US most people would say "I am American" if someone bugs them.

It made me think of this youtube...

https://youtu.be/DWynJkN5HbQ

Well, the difference is if the person is asking about my ethnicity vs. my nationality. I'm Chinese and I don't mind people asking that, as long as they're not implying I'm not American. It's the "where are you from" question that's annoying.

So, yes, there's a difference between my Chinese ethnic identity and my nationality. In different seasons of life, one of those could be more important to my identity than the other, but they're not the same thing.

 

[VGThuy]

I found that most people who say "what nationality are you?" or "where are you from" don't tend to mean to be antagonistic, so I low-key say I'm from New Orleans live in New York. Then I let them get down to what they really mean and I say my family is from Vietnam or my ethnicity is Vietnamese, but I'm American while my parents are immigrants. I think that gets to the point while allowing people not to feel bad for not knowing the right words to use. I try not to be too preachy about it because I think it's a matter of exposure and lord knows I've made errors before. Of course, if someone was asking who was more overtly hostile or ridiculous in other ways, then I don't mind being a bit more haughty about it.

 

[Coquelicot14]

I always found it to be a rude question if that's the first or second thing the person asks. Then they try to be nousy and pay you a compliment saying "but your English is so good..." how the hell am I supposed to speak?! Like Borat?
How about we get to know each other a bit first and then get into the genographic information.

But we are going a bit off topic

 

[firstflight]

Yup, back on topic I'm not saying they shouldn't be skating for Russia. Of course that made the most sense since Jonathan already switched to competing for Russia after competing for his birth country of Australia, and their shared common heritage is Russian. All I was saying is if he and Tiffany had instead switched to competing for Australia, they would probably be competing already at these Olympics given how we saw the process work out with Katia and Harley (who train in Russia part of the time with Mozer).

 

[Coquelicot14]

Yup, back on topic I'm not saying they shouldn't be skating for Russia. Of course that made the most sense since Jonathan already switched to competing for Russia after competing for his birth country of Australia. All I was saying is if he and Tiffany had instead switched to competing for Australia, they would probably be competing already at these Olympics given how we saw the process work out with Katia and Harley (who train in Russia part of the time with Mozer).

Not necessarily. I believe the RF may have helped some with getting a release from France, and of course there is a question of funding. They are a part of the national team, so there is financial help. Finally, Russia needs good ice dance teams, after B&S retire, they have a chance to be "top dog" along with S&B.

 

[firstflight]

Not necessarily. I believe the RF may have helped some with getting a release from France, and of course there is a question of funding. They are a part of the national team, so there is financial help. Finally, Russia needs good ice dance teams, after B&S retire, they have a chance to be "top dog" along with S&B.

....Or going the France route through Tiffany, they would probably be the second dance team going to the Olympics I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I get why they stuck with Russia and what you say about them rising to the top after Russian retirements makes sense. Just throwing out some "what could have been" scenarios given the rich citizenship makeup of these two individuals.