The Dance Hall 10: The Saitama Samba 2022-2023

[Bigbird]

Just saw Muramoto/Takahashi's FD, and it makes me irrationally angry. Why is Marina making them skate to this tired warhorse at the beginning of the quad? This is the time for something fresh and exciting! What a waste.

I've been asking why she threw V/M under the bus in 2014 for some time also. I'm yet to receive a response.

 

[Andora]

I've been asking why she threw V/M under the bus in 2014 for some time also. I'm yet to receive a response.

I'm sure there some sketchy-ish political or money business was involved, but the simple answer I figured was:

1) Tessa's injuries held the team back in terms of training compared to workhorses D&W (possibly motivation, too)

2) A coach with two teams that have won olympic gold is more valuable/sought after than a coach who has one team with two olympic gold medals.

 

[VGThuy]

I've been asking why she threw V/M under the bus in 2014 for some time also. I'm yet to receive a response.

I don't believe she threw them under the bus, honestly, despite Tessa and Scott's own feelings about it (right at the time and some years later...who knows what they will think decades later with hindsight and 2 more OGMs). I think she was just guilty getting rid of Igor, not having another co-coach to equalize the attention of the top two teams, not being able to juggle to top two teams in a way to satisfy both (and leaving Maia/Alex in the dust), and simply of not being good enough to make that program better. We all know by now that Marina has a limited dance vocabulary and her programs are not known for their dance content. She's known for good final editing and finishing of a full product.

I actually honestly thought more thought was put into V/M's FD as she found never-before-used or rarely used Russian classical music for V/M for the Sochi Olympics compared to the easy to cut warhorse of Schezerehade that she gave D/W. First, it's not as if she created something new and incredible with D/W's programs. Most of it was past crowd/judge-pleasing moves they developed through the years and taking advantage of D/W's aggressive style of skating. For V/M's program, I could tell they all wanted it to work and they kept re-editing the music cuts and program itself. I think if that same music had been choreographed by Romaine and Marie-France/Patrice, and the Gadbois team of dance specialists, it could have been a winner.

The music was actually quite beautiful and I liked the mood of it as I thought it was mature and sophisticated and probably a good challenge. I didn't like the autobiographical concept though...they should have came up with another concept, if they even needed one. I really believe the problem was that Marina wasn't a good enough choreographer to make something really special from that music from scratch. There were also other people working on it, but by Sochi, I think it was just edited to death and you felt the entire team, including Tessa and Scott, had lost confidence in that FD even as they were performing it.

Now, for the SD, V/M got a winner but apparently, I was told Jean-Marc Généreux was the main choreographer for that and helped them work it throughout the season. Shame the judges didn't appreciate it as much as I believe they should have. They should have won the GPF SD, IMO.

Don't forget that that program got raves at Canada's pre-season test skates/camp or whatever Skate Canada calls it.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

Yeah, I don't think Marina threw V/M under the bus, either. I think that the three of them just ran out of steam as a team. That short dance was fabulous, though.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah, I don't think Marina threw V/M under the bus, either. I think that the three of them just ran out of steam as a team. That short dance was fabulous, though.

It's probably my favorite "SD" (meaning when they combined the OD and compulsory dance).

 

[Andrea82]

I don't mind old-style POTUS warhorse by Muramoto/Takahashi, because there aren't many programs of that kind now. I prefer an old style program in and there than the 18th softie softie lyrical program skated by a middle tier couple.

 

[Debbie S]

Why do you think it's a good vehicle for them?

I thought they skated it well at SA (well, OK, there were tech glitches but I'm referring to presentation). As noted upthread, Dai can sell anything and I thought he did a good job with the character.

 

[On My Own]

It's probably my favorite "SD" (meaning when they combined the OD and compulsory dance).

The SD is the best ever for me, but the FD paled to D/W because I don't think the judges would have cared for that compared to Scheherazade. Funnily, this would have been the perfect time for MR lol.

 

[VGThuy]

The SD is the best ever for me, but the FD paled to D/W because I don't think the judges would have cared for that compared to Scheherazade. Funnily, this would have been the perfect time for MR lol.

I'm glad they waited though because Tessa/Scott became even stronger in 2018 and were able to perform that program to the best and fullest of their heightened abilities.

 

[skategal]

I’ll always be bitter that we didn’t get the “Pride and Prejudice” FD in 2014 which was what Tessa wanted.

IIRC both Scott and Marina voted against that.

Y’all should have listened to Tessa.

She’s super smart!

 

[On My Own]

I'm glad they waited though because Tessa/Scott became even stronger in 2018 and were able to perform that program to the best and fullest of their heightened abilities.

I mean they knew full well what the judges wanted by then. No more vision, only blindness. But I will always love their 2014 RD.

 

[manhn]

The initial reaction to V&M selecting Moulin Rouge was hardly enthusiastic. That said, Marina probably would have been more receptive to it than Dub/Lau, and would have created a program from the start that would have required less tweaking over the season.

 

[muffinplus]

Just saw Muramoto/Takahashi's FD, and it makes me irrationally angry. Why is Marina making them skate to this tired warhorse at the beginning of the quad? This is the time for something fresh and exciting! What a waste.

As if Marina can come up with non-wahorse packaging.

 

[VGThuy]

I mean they knew full well what the judges wanted by then. No more vision, only blindness. But I will always love their 2014 RD.

Marina probably thought V/M couldn't beat D/W at their own game and went back to what she perceived was their strengths. It may have been the wrong move, but maybe V/M would have lost anyway. Also, wasn't Tessa still struggling with some injuries that she didn't fully recover from until taking that 2 season break prior to the 2016-17 season? I know they really ramped up their conditioning in preparation for their come-back. They were super strong when they did come back and were able to do some incredible content.

 

[Bouffantrex]

P.S. There's nothing wrong with the current programs; they just aren't as interesting to me.

Agreed. But considering Takahashi's weaknesses as an ice dancer, this team MUST have innovative and interesting programs to set them apart from the field. They can't rely on immaculate skating skills to score well.

I think the SD has more potential than the disappointing FD.

 

[Bigbird]

Noted and noted some more. But Marina tossed them under the bus. That FD was clearly horrific in comparison to the RD. Why not also give them a strong character piece like Pride and P.? She knew better and could have done better. Period.

 

[Wyliefan]

What makes you think a character piece would have been the magic wand that made everything perfect for them? As I recall, one of the most criticized programs they ever did was a character piece (Funny Face).

 

[ice coverage]

As someone who loved V/M's Funny Face, I will note that it helped them win overall gold at 2012 Worlds and 2012 Four Continents.
And they won small FD gold at both events.

Despite chatter (from some) throughout the season that D/W's Fledermaus supposedly was a "superior" program.

 

[VGThuy]

This will sound kind of harsh, but my observations of some fans after Sochi and leading into Pyeongchang is that many have to BLAME some tangible actor so they can have someone to blame for why Sochi ended up the way it did for Tessa/Scott. Some just want to believe Marina sabotaged V/M because they can't bring themselves to see that sometimes V/M could just lose. Not to say bad decisions weren't made to get them there, but that doesn't mean the bad decisions were done purposefully. But it's much easier to think that V/M wouldn't have lost 2014 if not for Marina actively working against them and designing their loss.

I think it just played the way it did at the time of their career. A lot of things came together that resulted in Sochi being the way it was for Scott/Tessa. Had V/M lost to P/C and by some way in Pyeongchang (they did lose the FD and P/C had that SD incident that could have or did cost them major points and resulted in their loss), then maybe Marie-France/Patrice/Romain would have gotten the blame too (especially since they did revamp the FD and maybe the revamp would have gotten the blame or the fans would have said the judges wanted "high art!" and not some "character piece from a movie!"... or maybe they would have just blamed the judges for being corrupt...who knows?)

 

[sap5]

I don't believe she threw them under the bus, honestly, despite Tessa and Scott's own feelings about it (right at the time and some years later...who knows what they will think decades later with hindsight and 2 more OGMs). I think she was just guilty getting rid of Igor, not having another co-coach to equalize the attention of the top two teams, not being able to juggle to top two teams in a way to satisfy both (and leaving Maia/Alex in the dust), and simply of not being good enough to make that program better. We all know by now that Marina has a limited dance vocabulary and her programs are not known for their dance content. She's known for good final editing and finishing of a full product.

Now, for the SD, V/M got a winner but apparently, I was told Jean-Marc Généreux was the main choreographer for that and helped them work it throughout the season. Shame the judges didn't appreciate it as much as I believe they should have. They should have won the GPF SD, IMO.

Don't forget that that program got raves at Canada's pre-season test skates/camp or whatever Skate Canada calls it.

I have never bought the idea that Marina intentionally threw her own team under the bus. Scott did an interview after PYC where he basically said that part of the problem was their fault, in that they expected Marina to do everything, when really, they should have owned the process more. I can see how it is hard to grow up just trusting in everything the coach says, and then realizing that you can't always do that. It's part of growing up though, so it was a good lesson to learn. I'm glad that he at least, eventually realized that Marina wasn't entirely to blame.

I thought they skated it well at SA (well, OK, there were tech glitches but I'm referring to presentation). As noted upthread, Dai can sell anything and I thought he did a good job with the character.

I guess it's a good piece for Dai to learn how to play a character, though I feel that's something he's already good at.

I’ll always be bitter that we didn’t get the “Pride and Prejudice” FD in 2014 which was what Tessa wanted.

IIRC both Scott and Marina voted against that.

Y’all should have listened to Tessa.

She’s super smart!

No matter what their fans say, I'm so glad that they didn't do Pride and Prejudice. Marina and Scott got that one right 100%.

The initial reaction to V&M selecting Moulin Rouge was hardly enthusiastic. That said, Marina probably would have been more receptive to it than Dub/Lau, and would have created a program from the start that would have required less tweaking over the season.

IMO, so many lessons were learned in that tweaking process that I'm glad all of them went through it.

Marina probably thought V/M couldn't beat D/W at their own game and went back to what she perceived was their strengths. It may have been the wrong move, but maybe V/M would have lost anyway. Also, wasn't Tessa still struggling with some injuries that she didn't fully recover from until taking that 2 season break prior to the 2016-17 season? I know they really ramped up their conditioning in preparation for their come-back. They were super strong when they did come back and were able to do some incredible content.

This is another thing I'm grateful for. That entire Sochi experience taught them that ice dancing needs to be approached in an entirely different way, where off-ice training is fully integrated with on-ice work.

Agreed. But considering Takahashi's weaknesses as an ice dancer, this team MUST have innovative and interesting programs to set them apart from the field. They can't rely on immaculate skating skills to score well.

I think the SD has more potential than the disappointing FD.

I like KanaDai's SD more too. Dai has so much performance ability, and Kana's ability to partner and be a star, yet accomodate and cover her partner's weaknesses is like DWTS pro level. Their combined potential for showstopping programs is incredible. I want to see this put to better use!

 

[sap5]

This is kind of sound harsh, but my observations of some fans after Sochi and leading into Pyeongchang is that many have to BLAME some tangible actor so they can have someone to blame for why Sochi ended up the way it did for Tessa/Scott. Some just want to believe Marina sabotaged V/M because they can't bring themselves to see that sometimes V/M could just lose. Not to say bad decisions weren't made to get them there, but that doesn't mean the bad decisions were done purposefully. But it's much easier to think that V/M wouldn't have lost 2014 if not for Marina actively working against them and designing their loss.

I think it just played the way it did at the time of their career. A lot of things came together that resulted in Sochi being the way it was for Scott/Tessa. Had V/M lost to P/C and by some way in Pyeongchang (they did lose the FD and P/C had that SD incident that could have or did cost them major points and resulted in their loss), then maybe Marie-France/Patrice/Romain would have gotten the blame too (especially since they did revamp the FD and maybe the revamp would have gotten the blame or the fans would have said the judges wanted "high art!" and not some "character piece from a movie!"... or maybe they would have just blamed the judges for being corrupt...who knows?)

V/M have always had deranged fans who loved to create villians. Look at the way they treated Scott's wife.

 

[Bouffantrex]

V/M have always had deranged fans who loved to create villians. Look at the way they treated Scott's wife.

Yes, but that applies to EVERY deranged fan base: from Hanyu to Yuna to Kwan to Pasha to Eteri.

 

[VGThuy]

The apex of the Pasha brigade was still my favorite.

This Photo Gallery is the best. Check out the caption under the pic with her at dinner sitting in-between Alexander Zhulin and Maya Usova!

 

[On My Own]

Pasha had stans??? Why??????

Also, message boards existed when they competed?!

 

[sap5]

The apex of the Pasha brigade was still my favorite.

This Photo Gallery is the best. Check out the caption under the pic with her at dinner sitting in-between Alexander Zhulin and Maya Usova!

OMG. What an example of things living on the internet forever.

 

[sap5]

Pasha had stans??? Why??????

Also, message boards existed when they competed?!

Because she was an excellent ice dancer.

 

[VGThuy]

Pasha had stans??? Why??????

Also, message boards existed when they competed?!

Don't tell me that you're VERY young and weren't around for the Pasha Brigade? This message board was pretty much founded by Pasha stans...well Euro ice dance fans who needed a place away from the American-centric Figure Skating World board...but you know...they're kind of related.

 

[On My Own]

Don't tell me that you're VERY young and weren't around for the Pasha Brigade? This message board was pretty much founded by Pasha stans...well Euro ice dance fans who needed a place away from the American-centric Figure Skating World board...but you know...they're kind of related.

I mean I'm in my late twenties. When did it exist? lol. I found skating forums in 2010s anyway.

 

[tony]

I mean I'm in my late twenties. When did it exist? lol. I found skating forums in 2010s anyway.

I'm 36 and I was posting on skating message boards as early as 1996 via AOL boards and their setup to get to things like rssif which was really old-school posting. FSWorld was a big board (similar in style to FSU) back in the day that self-combusted when Paul Martini/Canada took over in, I think, late 2000.

 

[On My Own]

I'm 36 and I was posting on skating message boards as early as 1996 via AOL boards and their setup to get to things like rssif which was really old-school posting. FSWorld was a big board (similar in style to FSU) back in the day that self-combusted when Paul Martini/Canada took over in 2001.

Huh OK. Well my mother 100% wouldn't have allowed me near the computer alone when I was 10 lol.