The Dance Hall 10: The Saitama Samba 2022-2023

[VGThuy]

I mean I'm in my late twenties. When did it exist? lol. I found skating forums in 2010s anyway.

Also, message boards existed when they competed?!

Skating forums existed for a long time. I joined them after the 2001 Worlds and desperately needed to celebrate Kwan's fourth world title with other fans. Boy, I had no idea what I was getting myself into.

This forum on top says its celebrating 21 years, but that cannot be right. I feel like FSU is older than that.

I remember being part of the then very traffic-busy Michelle Kwan Forum (THE place for Michelle Kwan discussion and news pre-social media and where visitors would also visit and talk skating) and being told of the old CBS forum days from Nagano 1998. There was also Yahoo outdated system of messages RSSIF (or something like that) that was very popular for the very old school skating fans.

Believe it or not, there were dozens upon dozens of skating forums back in the day (especially during EZboard's prime) and people were part of multiple skating message boards. This board is very busy but it used to be even busier back in the day when skating was more in its prime in the English-speaking world.

Pasha had stans??? Why??????

To use the evidence in the the link I provided:

“It’s always nice with Pasha - said Michelle Kwan - "she is one of the nicest person I have ever met."

“I think the reason why people respect Pasha is because of her honesty”- Maria Butyrskaya

And

"Michelle's mom was always supportive, warm, with nice words to Pasha"

There you go...the Kween, the Queen, and the Kween's mother have spoken. That's why.

 

[Karen-W]

I mean I'm in my late twenties. When did it exist? lol. I found skating forums in 2010s anyway.

Oh, sweet summer child... before forums and message boards, there was rssif and there were email discussion groups, like SkateFans in the early 90s. I discovered SkateFans sometime in the mid-90s after graduating from college and having my first job with regular internet access. The internet and work place usage was the wild wild west back then.

 

[Bouffantrex]

Also, message boards existed when they competed?!

Time for a crash course in figure skating message board history, dear. Paging (literally) PegLewis and Trudi M....

 

[On My Own]

Paging (literally)

Oh, sweet summer child... before forums and message boards, there was rssif and there were email discussion groups, like SkateFans in the early 90s. I discovered SkateFans sometime in the mid-90s after graduating from college and having my first job with regular internet access. The internet and work place usage was the wild wild west back then.

I mean, I knew internet existed for work and all, but for some reason, it blows my mind that people would want to listen to that annoyin beeping sound repeatedly just for message boards, lol.

 

[VGThuy]

I was mostly into singles back in the old days, but we should definitely interview all the old guards. Heather W. from MKF, OldGoat from Tara World (remember the sub-forum titled "Taratory"?), WVgal and (who was the owner) of the Irina fan forum, Adrian who went from Kwan fanatic to Kwan hater and used Sasha as a vessel to express his Kwan hate, etc.

 

[Karen-W]

Time for a crash course in figure skating message board history, dear. Paging (literally) PegLewis and Trudi M....

And don't forget Sandra Loosemore!

 

[tony]

Time for a crash course in figure skating message board history, dear. Paging (literally) PegLewis and Trudi M....

Trudi is the very reason we have the word 'chack' to extend to any kind of telecast skipping someone or something, IIRC.

 

[On My Own]

Wow y'all are long-time stans... I guess some fans might be in it for the long haul too...

 

[Wyliefan]

Adrian who went from Kwan fanatic to Kwan hater and used Sasha as a vessel to express his Kwan hate, etc.

Maybe so, but SashaFans was still a fun board. It's where I met several FSUers for the first time, for one thing.

 

[Karen-W]

Trudi is the very reason we have the word 'chack' to extend to any kind of telecast skipping someone or something, IIRC.

Michael Chack! From his wikipedia entry...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chack

Chack also won one senior national medal, bronze at the 1993 U.S. Championships.[2] After his performance was skipped by the broadcaster, his surname became part of figure skating's colloquial vocabulary, e.g. "to chack" meaning to omit a good performance from a television broadcast.

 

[VGThuy]

I didn’t know “Chack” only referred to “good” performances that were cut from the television broadcasts. I guess it’s the “good” performances that would be noted to have been “chacked”.

 

[tony]

Michael Chack! From his wikipedia entry...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chack

Yes, I know the situation from 1993 Nationals and him not being in the final group which meant no ABC time, but I meant I'm pretty sure she was the very person who brought the term into existence-- first in skating circles and now more wide-spread.

 

[Karen-W]

I didn’t know “Chack” only referred to “good” performances that were cut from the television broadcasts. I guess it’s the “good” performances that would be noted to have been “chacked”.

Well, it's more that he wasn't in the final group, like @tony noted, and then the ordinals were totally messed up for the final flight, so he wound up winning the bronze. I'm not sure that it was because his skate was so exceptionally good or that the rest of the guys were exceptionally messy. I was in college then and I know I watched those Nationals because I remember the women's free skate had a bunch of mixed up ordinals and Tonya Harding wound up dropping down to 4th from 2nd after the last skater's marks came up and lost a spot on the Worlds team as a result. But, yeah, 'chack' comes from Michael Chack's skate not being shown on the broadcast, even as an afterthought once he won bronze.

 

[VGThuy]

I knew Chack came from Michael Chack but I always thought it could be used for any performance haha.

Anyway, the fan nicknames for their faves’ rivals were so evil back then. Remember what the Pasha Brigade used to call Maya Usova?

 

[litenkyckling]

I’ll always be bitter that we didn’t get the “Pride and Prejudice” FD in 2014 which was what Tessa wanted.

IIRC both Scott and Marina voted against that.

Y’all should have listened to Tessa.

She’s super smart!

I’m such a fan of L/Ps P&P in 17/18 - so many gorgeous moments and every time I watch it I think “imagine if Tessa and Scott had had this music and material” - I don’t even care if it would’ve won them gold or not I just would’ve loved to have seen it as a fan

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Time for a crash course in figure skating message board history, dear. Paging (literally) PegLewis and Trudi M....

And (I was going to say not to mention, but here I go) Ann Lewis/anjule...

 

[VGThuy]

I remember laughing at the biggest Pasha stan, ESTA, who came back after some years and warned us all about the "black mark of Tarasova". Then she lamented that Michelle Kwan would fall prey to it after hearing Tarasova choreographed Kwan's 2005-06 routines and declared that Arakawa had to leave Tarasova or else she would never win the OGM in Torino. I may have laughed at the time, but look who was right?

We can't ever dismiss ESTA's predictions. She predicted Sotnikova's Sochi win back in 2012.

 

[Andora]

Oh, man, I had no idea what a good ice dancer Oksana G was until I got on message boards AFTER 1998/Nagano. But to be fair, her theatrics that season + their funeral dirge of a FD did not endear a ton of North American fans. Especially if you were a fan of U&Z, as I was, though only as a pro team.

I will forever be grateful to Sandra Loosemore, though. Her site was a literal treasure trove for a young and clueless skating fan.

Noted and noted some more. But Marina tossed them under the bus. That FD was clearly horrific in comparison to the RD. Why not also give them a strong character piece like Pride and P.? She knew better and could have done better. Period.

I don't think the FD is how Marina ... disfavoured them, though I can understand an argument where that's the case. I honestly only enjoyed it at their first competition (Finlandia?), GPF, and then... If the original vision was closer to those performances, then I can buy that she tried to give them equally solid programs as she did to D&W. But what we actually saw, Seasons vs. scheherazade... It didn't scream "I love both teams equally." Hell, Marina used to claim she had both teams' olympic programs picked years in advance, and that she couldn't maintain that vision with V&M that season.

I 100% buy Marina just wasn't capable enough as a coach on her own, without Igor, and a talented enough choreographer to do both teams justice. There was talk that V&M should have left Marina, and I agree, but where could they actually have gone that would have been comparable? And I think Dave Lease made a great point once that even 30% of Marina's political power was better than leaving her to dedicate 100% to D&W, had V&M left for another coach.

I can't accept she didn't favour D&W, however, in terms of politics. It was clear all season, in interviews, etc. At the time it felt really nefarious as a fan of V&M (and good ice dance ) but I think there's as many good reasons for her actions at the time vs. some Machiavellian plot. Tessa's injuries were not so easy to hide or overcome as they were in 2010. Meryl is now Marina's daughter-in-law. Marina had to invest her time and efforts and put money on the best horse. That would have been D&W, who beat V&M at 2013 worlds in their own back yard. I don't have to like it, but I definitely understand it.

Marina suffered her own consequences with the emergence of Gadbois.

 

[VGThuy]

Oh, man, I had no idea what a good ice dancer Oksana G was until I got on message boards AFTER 1998/Nagano. But to be fair, her theatrics that season + their funeral dirge of a FD did not endear a ton of North American fans. Especially if you were a fan of U&Z, as I was, though only as a pro team.

I will forever be grateful to Sandra Loosemore, though. Her site was a literal treasure trove for a young and clueless skating fan.



I don't think the FD is how Marina ... disfavoured them, though I can understand an argument where that's the case. I honestly only enjoyed it at their first competition (Finlandia?), GPF, and then... If the original vision was closer to those performances, then I can buy that she tried to give them equally solid programs as she did to D&W. But what we actually saw, Seasons vs. scheherazade... It didn't scream "I love both teams equally." Hell, Marina used to claim she had both teams' olympic programs picked years in advance, and that she couldn't maintain that vision with V&M that season.

I 100% buy Marina just wasn't capable enough as a coach on her own, without Igor, and a talented enough choreographer to do both teams justice. There was talk that V&M should have left Marina, and I agree, but where could they actually have gone that would have been comparable? And I think Dave Lease made a great point once that even 30% of Marina's political power was better than leaving her to dedicate 100% to D&W, had V&M left for another coach.

I can't accept she didn't favour D&W, however, in terms of politics. It was clear all season, in interviews, etc. At the time it felt really nefarious as a fan of V&M (and good ice dance ) but I think there's as many good reasons for her actions at the time vs. some Machiavellian plot. Tessa's injuries were not so easy to hide or overcome as they were in 2010. Meryl is now Marina's daughter-in-law. Marina had to invest her time and efforts and put money on the best horse. That would have been D&W, who beat V&M at 2013 worlds in their own back yard. I don't have to like it, but I definitely understand it.

Marina suffered her own consequences with the emergence of Gadbois.

Now this, I totally understand! If there was any bias, it was more subconscious and natural human nature rather than some intentional plot.

I also do believe Marina would make public statements that would make all reasonable V/M fans angry. I remember feeling that way when Sinitsiana/Katsalapov joined Canton and hearing her wax poetic about them in the way she never did for the Shibs.

 

[Bigbird]

What makes you think a character piece would have been the magic wand that made everything perfect for them? As I recall, one of the most criticized programs they ever did was a character piece (Funny Face).

Anything would have suited them better. Anything.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

By the way - let me state once and for all how much I despise the effing term STAN (and Eminem as well, but I digress).

 

[Bigbird]

By the way - let me state once and for all how much I despise the effing term STAN (and Eminem as well, but I digress).

What is STAN though?

 

[tony]

What is STAN though?

A borderline obsessive (or put more nicely-- super) fan, basically. And it became a thing after Eminem's 'Stan' song which was about that topic.

 

[On My Own]

What is STAN though?

 

[VGThuy]

Stan, uber, fanatic...it's all the same thing. Depends on where you come from and what generation you are.

 

[Bigbird]

How did we drift so far though? What is Pasha up to these days?

 

[chantilly]

Oh, man, I had no idea what a good ice dancer Oksana G was until I got on message boards AFTER 1998/Nagano. But to be fair, her theatrics that season + their funeral dirge of a FD did not endear a ton of North American fans. Especially if you were a fan of U&Z, as I was, though only as a pro team.

I will forever be grateful to Sandra Loosemore, though. Her site was a literal treasure trove for a young and clueless skating fan.



I don't think the FD is how Marina ... disfavoured them, though I can understand an argument where that's the case. I honestly only enjoyed it at their first competition (Finlandia?), GPF, and then... If the original vision was closer to those performances, then I can buy that she tried to give them equally solid programs as she did to D&W. But what we actually saw, Seasons vs. scheherazade... It didn't scream "I love both teams equally." Hell, Marina used to claim she had both teams' olympic programs picked years in advance, and that she couldn't maintain that vision with V&M that season.

I 100% buy Marina just wasn't capable enough as a coach on her own, without Igor, and a talented enough choreographer to do both teams justice. There was talk that V&M should have left Marina, and I agree, but where could they actually have gone that would have been comparable? And I think Dave Lease made a great point once that even 30% of Marina's political power was better than leaving her to dedicate 100% to D&W, had V&M left for another coach.

I can't accept she didn't favour D&W, however, in terms of politics. It was clear all season, in interviews, etc. At the time it felt really nefarious as a fan of V&M (and good ice dance ) but I think there's as many good reasons for her actions at the time vs. some Machiavellian plot. Tessa's injuries were not so easy to hide or overcome as they were in 2010. Meryl is now Marina's daughter-in-law. Marina had to invest her time and efforts and put money on the best horse. That would have been D&W, who beat V&M at 2013 worlds in their own back yard. I don't have to like it, but I definitely understand it.

Marina suffered her own consequences with the emergence of Gadbois.

Agree with pretty much all of this and would add that Marina coaching another federation’s Ice dance team especially the US which has more money and opportunities than most other countries and a gold medal would lead to tons of press, it was also a business decision for Marina.

I think V and M felt the loss of Igor quite badly because they often struggled with the technical in competition and D and W were gaining momentum in this area.

I think this coaching team made up for each other’s weaknesses and then when they broke it was pretty much the beginning of the end for both of them, because neither one has been able to stay or regain their former dominance.

 

[PRlady]

Skatefans, sigh. Was thinking of it at SA because I saw @Sylvia there and remembered that she, @Louis and Lori Gottleib were the first online fans I met in real life, at Liberty’s predecessor event.

It made me remember Ben Currie and Dave Forberg, both of whom died too young. And that I had no idea what a listserve or message board really was or how it functioned, but I found Skatefans somehow in its UDel days and that was that. How much time I’ve spent there and FSU for 27 years or so I don’t dare calculate.

And I’m really tired of people not admitting that D/W were a terrific team whose OGM dances were stellar.

 

[Alilou]

And I’m really tired of people not admitting that D/W were a terrific team whose OGM dances were stellar.

I'm a V&M uber, but yes, this! Absolutely stellar. Also loved Die Fledermaus, and so much else they did.

 

[Bigbird]

Skatefans, sigh. Was thinking of it at SA because I saw @Sylvia there and remembered that she, @Louis and Lori Gottleib were the first online fans I met in real life, at Liberty’s predecessor event.

It made me remember Ben Currie and Dave Forberg, both of whom died too young. And that I had no idea what a listserve or message board really was or how it functioned, but I found Skatefans somehow in its UDel days and that was that. How much time I’ve spent there and FSU for 27 years or so I don’t dare calculate.

And I’m really tired of people not admitting that D/W were a terrific team whose OGM dances were stellar.

They are still awful. I never rewatch either SD or FDs of theirs almost never. But that's just me.

But when Marina dips so low to say that Nikita was even more musical than Scott, that's when you knew the love was completely lost. But thankfully why be so concerned about Marina when we can uber about Marie-France. LOL.