Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir, #46 : Until the End of Time

[sap5]

deleted.

 

[Goody2shoes]

@chapis point taken. When I thought of your post, it somehow brought me back to the OD performance of Oksana D. & Maxim S. at Olympics Vancouver. Read the backstory & how they insisted (if I'm not mistaken) in obtaining approval from Aboriginal peoples before showcasing their OD. But general audience wasn't receptive of it. At all. I didn't think it was intentional of them to choreograph the way it was. But it just is. An interpretation of what they thought was an appreciation to the culture of the Aboriginal peoples. And people interpret how ever they want.

For V/M, I don't see any different in the song choices they picked today or in the past for this type of dance style. Even back in 2011-12, they had a combination of modern song with latin beat/rhythm (hip hip chin chin), followed by Diana Krall then finished off with a true Latin song. To me, that seem like they enjoy this choices. Back then, I think the ones that struck me as most authentic would be songs choices from D/W & P/B.

Again, I think it's the coaches/choreographers and team work together try best to interpret what is this Latin (without the intention of hurting a culture/race). It's the definition what it is/should be by people that differs.

 

[VGThuy]

@chapis point taken. When I thought of your post, it somehow brought me back to the OD performance of Oksana D. & Maxim S. at Olympics Vancouver. Read the backstory & how they insisted (if I'm not mistaken) in obtaining approval from Aboriginal peoples before showcasing their OD. But general audience wasn't receptive of it. At all. I didn't think it was intentional of them to choreograph the way it was. But it just is. An interpretation of what they thought was an appreciation to the culture of the Aboriginal peoples. And people interpret how ever they want.

I thought the issue was that they did not seek any approval or even consulted with any aboriginal people (clearly Australian with the way they were dressed), and only reached out to an unrelated Canadian Native-American tribe near Vancouver after the huge controversy erupted after Russian Nationals/Europeans. The background story changed a lot during that time. First it was listed by the team itself as "Australian aborigines" and then after the controversy, Linichuk tried to say they didn't research any specific aboriginal culture but rather were doing an imagined cave man/cave woman dance who represented all people but looking specifically like Australian aborigines. Then later the team said they didn't mean offense when they did their research for the dance but the end product showed there wasn't any real research done on any folk dance or culture.

 

[sap5]

D/S at Vancouver is not at all similar to what chapis is saying (thanks, VIETgrlTerifa). I thought chapis is saying that Latin ballroom doesn't look like Latin dancing as it is actually danced in Latin countries. I agree, but that's an issue to take up with Dancesport. If the SD's origins were to take styles of ballroom dance and adapt them to ice, then "Latin ballroom" has a certain look, and that is what V/M have adapted to ice. Now whether "Latin ballroom" needs to change its look and be more true to what is actually happening in Latin countries is a worthy, but entirely different, discussion.

 

[marbri]

If we are going to talk about cultural sensitivities it's First Nations people in Canada, not Canadian Native-American. Also your use of tribe is questionable.

See what a slippery slope it is when we demand authenticity and cultural sensitivity for one area and not another.

 

[VGThuy]

If we are going to talk about cultural sensitivities it's First Nations people in Canada, not Canadian Native-American. Also your use of tribe is questionable.

See what a slippery slope it is when we demand authenticity and cultural sensitivity for one area and not another.

I apologize for my usage. I was in a rush and used my U.S.-based terminology without thinking. Same went with "tribe" as I remember American reporters using that term when the controversy came out, and there are a few websites that use that term. Is that not correct? Will correct it and be more conscientious in the future. The slippery slope isn't so dangerous so long as we listen to each other and acknowledge our mistakes and we can have a conversation as opposed to simply calling each other out.

ETA: I just did a quick search and I think my use of the word tribe was due to this Washington Post article that referred to the group that met with D/S and gave them traditional red, white, and black blankets as a gift as "Coast Salish tribal group".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/21/AR2010022104563.html

 

[marbri]

D/S at Vancouver is not at all similar to what chapis is saying (thanks, VIETgrlTerifa). I thought chapis is saying that Latin ballroom doesn't look like Latin dancing as it is actually danced in Latin countries. I agree, but that's an issue to take up with Dancesport. If the SD's origins were to take styles of ballroom dance and adapt them to ice, then "Latin ballroom" has a certain look, and that is what V/M have adapted to ice. Now whether "Latin ballroom" needs to change its look and be more true to what is actually happening in Latin countries is a worthy, but entirely different, discussion.

The thing is, from my understanding, the ISU opened it up to variety that either is alright to portray this season. So the whole conversation/debate about whether their SD (or P/C or anyone else skating a SD that is not to chapis's liking) is wrong or bordering on cultural appropriation or whatever is unnecessary because these teams are doing what is allowed and fulfilling the requirements asked of them. To even link it to what Dom/Shabs did in 2010 is bizarre (or are we forgetting the dark illusion fabric and face makeup on top of everything else?) Music was cool though

 

[lauravvv]

An Back then, I think the ones that struck me as most authentic would be songs choices from D/W & P/B.

D/W? Just because one of the three chosen songs was sang in Spanish (if I remember correctly)? Jennifer Lopez might be Mexican by origin, but 'On The Floor' is a clear pop song sang in English. I think the third song was in English too (again, if I remember correctly - will have to rewatch/check). How is it more authentic than V/M's choices that season (2012/2013)?

 

[Goody2shoes]

When I brought up D/S, it was in line with what you, Marbri, stated in the earlier post about "a slippery slope it is when we demand authenticity and cultural sensitivity for one area and not another". (Very sorry of my rambling of words came out wrong).

@lauravvv In this instance, I think in terms of 80% (i.e. more authentic) into what's perceive to be Latin due to music choice they've chosen. Btw, I enjoy any skaters dancing to Latin beat (using Latin singers/songs or just beats) but honestly can not differentiate - if it's sung by Spanish mexican, Puerto Rican, or any regions from South America in general, etc. As a person coming from Southeast asia, I can only appreciate my own but not to fully understand another's culture entirely. Unless I was of coursed raised among friends who are or immersed in that culture. (Reading from past posts, now I'm somewhat properly schooled)

But yes, I do think V/M music choice is still cool. And dance wise is close to feel of Latin ballroom. Perhaps, it may not overly authentic (to some) but they try to be close to it. Or in this case, not actually breaking any rules set by ISU.

 

[marbri]

I apologize for my usage. I was in a rush and used my U.S.-based terminology without thinking. Same went with "tribe" as I remember American reporters using that term when the controversy came out, and there are a few websites that use that term. Is that not correct? Will correct it and be more conscientious in the future. The slippery slope isn't so dangerous so long as we listen to each other and acknowledge our mistakes and we can have a conversation as opposed to simply calling each other out.

ETA: I just did a quick search and I think my use of the word tribe was due to this Washington Post article that referred to the group that met with D/S and gave them traditional red, white, and black blankets as a gift as "Coast Salish tribal group".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/21/AR2010022104563.html

I don't want to get sidetracked into an in depth discussion about this and nor do I have the expertise to attempt one. Just things I have learned along the way in much the same way you learned today that in Canada it's First Nations and not Native-American. But just a quick note that in the article there were four nations hosting those games not one. From my limited experience (SIL who is First Nations) and knowledge it's preferred to refer to a group as a nation. If you are interested you can just google the four nations in that article to see how they refer to themselves, they all have an online presence. It's actually interesting, if one is interested, to read up on this topic as North Americans. I just had a conversation a few months ago with a group of friends that started with a school reading list for an English class that evolved into a discussion about Residential schools in Canada and how little we know (middle aged white women) about the real story of the relationship between the European settlers and First Nations people because we were never taught the ugly parts of our history.

Anyway, back to latin ice dancing programs

 

[VGThuy]

D/W? Just because one of the three chosen songs was sang in Spanish (if I remember correctly)? Jennifer Lopez might be Mexican by origin, but 'On The Floor' is a clear pop song sang in English. I think the third song was in English too (again, if I remember correctly - will have to rewatch/check). How is it more authentic than V/M's choices that season (2012/2013)?

Jennifer Lopez is of Puerto Rican heritage, not Mexican.

D/W's SD that season had three pieces:

• "Batucadas"
  by Mitoka Samba
• "Life is a Carnival"
  by various artists
• "On The Floor"
  • by Jennifer Lopez

The version of "On the Floor" that they used was the Spanish-language version, ""Ven a Bailar" which featured additional lyrics by Julio Reyes Copello and Jimena Romero, and the song itself had Latin-American origins as it sampled heavily from Bolivian artists Los Kjarkas' song "Llorando se fue" which was popularized by the 1989 song "Lambada" by a French-Brazilian group, Kaoma. Before "Lambada" there had been a ton of Spanish-language dance covers of Llorando se fue". Further, Lopez collaborated with Pitbull on the song, who is Cuban-American.

I don't want to get sidetracked into an in depth discussion about this and nor do I have the expertise to attempt one. Just things I have learned along the way in much the same way you learned today that in Canada it's First Nations and not Native-American. But just a quick note that in the article there were four nations hosting those games not one. From my limited experience (SIL who is First Nations) and knowledge it's preferred to refer to a group as a nation. If you are interested you can just google the four nations in that article to see how they refer to themselves, they all have an online presence. It's actually interesting, if one is interested, to read up on this topic as North Americans. I just had a conversation a few months ago with a group of friends that started with a school reading list for an English class that evolved into a discussion about Residential schools in Canada and how little we know (middle aged white women) about the real story of the relationship between the European settlers and First Nations people because we were never taught the ugly parts of our history.

Anyway, back to latin ice dancing programs

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I really appreciate it and will take care to do further research and learn more about it.

Anyway, I do think V/M are being authentic in dance to the ballroom tradition, which is extremely hard to do on the ice. I think they should be applauded for that.

 

[lauravvv]

Thanks for your corrections, VIETgrlTerifa. To tell the truth, I was not entirely sure if I remembered Davis/White's music correctly, but could not really check at that moment. I still thought I was most likely right in my recollections, but it turns out I was not. Even then D/W's choices don't seem completely "authentic" (at least to me), though. Which does not mean I have something against their or anybody else's "inauthentic" music choices. I don't mind at all, especially as I know that most of them meet the requirements + I personally like this variety.

As for Lopez, I have read it several times that she was Mexican, including in some seemingly valid articles, and I am really not such a fan that I would go more in-depth into her biography and/or try to double check what I have read about her. Apparently those "journalists" were just as misinformed as me. Which is not an excuse for ignorance (theirs or mine), of course.


Goody2shoes, thanks to VIETgrITerifa I now understand your thought about the authenticity of Davis/White's SD music choices in 2011/2012 better.

 

[sap5]

The issue I see is that the ISU did not specify that Latin music needs to be used for the SD. They only specified Latin rhythms. So there's nothing that says you can't use a non-Latin piece of music that's set to a Latin rhythm. The thing that I like about V/M's selections is that they use the actual pieces of music as they are. No overdubbing a Latin beat to music that never had a Latin rhythm to it; no speeding up or slowing down a piece of music to make it fit the beat requirements.

 

[VGThuy]

The issue I see is that the ISU did not specify that Latin music needs to be used for the SD. They only specified Latin rhythms. So there's nothing that says you can't use a non-Latin piece of music that's set to a Latin rhythm. The thing that I like about V/M's selections is that they use the actual pieces of music as they are. No overdubbing a Latin beat to music that never had a Latin rhythm to it; no speeding up or slowing down a piece of music to make it fit the beat requirements.

The only thing I remember reading where they made some sort of statement about the music skaters should use was with the USFS handbook where they said reggaeton was acceptable but not reggae, hip hop, Spanish flamenco, or tango. They also said music must have a "Latin feeling":

http://www.usfsa.org/content/isu-ice-dance-qanda-2017-2018-no1.pdf

 

[RoseRed]

If we are going to talk about cultural sensitivities it's First Nations people in Canada, not Canadian Native-American.

I apologize for my usage. I was in a rush and used my U.S.-based terminology without thinking. Same went with "tribe" as I remember American reporters using that term when the controversy came out, and there are a few websites that use that term. Is that not correct?

Just to be really specific, First Nations is a pretty specific term. It doesn't include Metis people or Inuit people, so it's not necessarily interchangeable with Native-American. The general term here used to be the Aboriginal peoples and Indigenous peoples is used more often now, which is also the term used by the UN.

In terms of tribe, I don't know as much about that, but I do know different communities don't all use the same terms. Band or Nation are both common.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Just to be really specific, First Nations is a pretty specific term. It doesn't include Metis people or Inuit people, so it's not necessarily interchangeable with Native-American. The general term here used to be the Aboriginal peoples and Indigenous peoples is used more often now, which is also the term used by the UN.

In terms of tribe, I don't know as much about that, but I do know different communities don't all use the same terms. Band or Nation are both common.

You are quite right. It is quite complicated here in Canada. For anyone interested in this:
https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/indigenous-peoples-terminology-guidelines-for-usage

 

[barbarafan]

I think my problem is the music, I don´t like latin ballroom floor dance, I think we mentioned months ago that for some reason, who dominate latin ballroom are not latin dancers, and to the dancers who dominate, they like incorporate non latin music to the dances. Really my disgust with V/M program is that it looks like those ballroom dances that I do not like them either. I have the same problem with P/C, I read people saying that they see ballroom dance with that music, and while they are trying justify them, actually I think ¨well, those ballroom dancers are doing a bad choice too IMO¨.

The thing is that latin dances are very popular in latinoamerica, people go to parties and those are the dances, you go out with your friends at weeked and people go to dance salsa, bachata and now reggaeton too, older people still go to dance danzon, mambo, cumbia in the squares of the towns is very popular that people just go to dance those rhythms. At christmas, birthdays, quinceañeras, weddings, people always dance in those celebrations. So, like this kind of dances are very popular, we have a lot of music for this dances, we don´t feel the need to dance to the Rolling Stones or Ed Sheeran like latin rhythms, we like them, really both are very popular in latinoamerica, but for our dances, we have our own good music, and while for many non latin people those songs can be interchangeable, for us the difference is huge. Here, if people go to a club and there is music of Justin Bieber, people dance it but they don´t dance it like a salsa, usually they just do random moves or sexy moves, same for all pop music. When I talk with my family or friends about ice dance choosing latin rhythms and I mention them to Rolling Stones, Ed Sheeran, Maroon 5, they just laugh or look at me confused.

Resume: V/M are dancing like ballroom latin dance, but for personal and cultural reasons, I don´t like it. I don´t know if I am going too far but it feels kind of cultural appropriation.

Ok...I see your point of view..would it be possible for you to give us a sample or 2 of a link/links of real Latin dance music which might be possible for a good short? I have a feeling I might like it as well. I like a really strong rhythm to dance music.

 

[chapis]

Ok...I see your point of view..would it be possible for you to give us a sample or 2 of a link/links of real Latin dance music which might be possible for a good short? I have a feeling I might like it as well. I like a really strong rhythm to dance music.

I have been discussing this topic since the ISU published that the Latin rhythms would be in the Olympic season. My point was the same before I knew that Maia and Alex would choose Pérez Prado, and before knowing the choices of V / M and P / C, I put VietgirlTerifa of witness that I have been talking about it for ages. I've been discussing this enough time to realize that most people in these forums do not agree with me, fortunately I'm also in a forum in Spanish where people actually agree with me, so that makes me feel less crazy, haha. I'm tired of being the crazy poster, if you or someone else wants my opinion on it, we can discuss it privately, as I already did with kittysk8ts.

 

[MRani]

I have been discussing this topic since the ISU published that the Latin rhythms would be in the Olympic season. My point was the same before I knew that Maia and Alex would choose Pérez Prado, and before knowing the choices of V / M and P / C, I put VietgirlTerifa of witness that I have been talking about it for ages. I've been discussing this enough time to realize that most people in these forums do not agree with me, fortunately I'm also in a forum in Spanish where people actually agree with me, so that makes me feel less crazy, haha. I'm tired of being the crazy poster, if you or someone else wants my opinion on it, we can discuss it privately, as I already did with kittysk8ts.

Just so you know, I’ve been lurking on these threads for a while and I found your posts on this topic very enlightening. I don’t think you’re crazy at all. It’s fascinating how our different cultures and backgrounds influence how we enjoy sports and art. Thank you for explaining your perspective so honestly. I think it’s good for all of us to try to see things from different perspectives even if at the end of the day we still love what we love.

 

[VGThuy]

I just think it's great that the V/M fans in this thread have been so nice to Chapis in understanding where she's coming from, even if you don't all agree. Plus, she wasn't criticizing the actual dance or difficulty of V/M's SD, and you guys understood that. As someone who knows chapis on another forum as well, some were really giving her a very hard time when she expressed a similar opinion there, so it's just so great to see that not happen here.

 

[pat c]

I think my problem is the music, I don´t like latin ballroom floor dance, I think we mentioned months ago that for some reason, who dominate latin ballroom are not latin dancers, and to the dancers who dominate, they like incorporate non latin music to the dances.

Resume: V/M are dancing like ballroom latin dance, but for personal and cultural reasons, I don´t like it. I don´t know if I am going too far but it feels kind of cultural appropriation.

Interesting post. I agree, I don't like the music choices either. I don't think it's cultural appropriation, but I can't think of better explanation. I remember watching a ball room dance competition a few years ago. One team did a rhumba to Goodbye English Rose. I remember thinking just because you can, should you? It's like doing the twist to Swan Lake. I'm sure it can be done, but .........

 

[sap5]

Interesting post. I agree, I don't like the music choices either. I don't think it's cultural appropriation, but I can't think of better explanation. I remember watching a ball room dance competition a few years ago. One team did a rhumba to Goodbye English Rose. I remember thinking just because you can, should you? It's like doing the twist to Swan Lake. I'm sure it can be done, but .........

How would you do the twist to Swan Lake?

 

[pat c]

How would you do the twist to Swan Lake?

No clue, but if a team can do a rhumba to good bye English rose, I guess anything is possible. j/k

 

[firstflight]

How would you do the twist to Swan Lake?

I just did it. Try it singing it to yourself and just twist on beat. It's refreshingly rigorous

 

[pani]

WOW! 92K times viewing TS SD! Good job, guys!

 

[lauravvv]

WOW! 92K times viewing TS SD! Good job, guys!

Well, unfortunately I did not add to the view count very much. I have watched their SD around ten or more times by now, but my old computer and my supposedly fast internet (at least partially because of the computer) are so slow that I have to first download videos to be able to watch them in HD quality or even in 480.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I have been discussing this topic since the ISU published that the Latin rhythms would be in the Olympic season. My point was the same before I knew that Maia and Alex would choose Pérez Prado, and before knowing the choices of V / M and P / C, I put VietgirlTerifa of witness that I have been talking about it for ages. I've been discussing this enough time to realize that most people in these forums do not agree with me, fortunately I'm also in a forum in Spanish where people actually agree with me, so that makes me feel less crazy, haha. I'm tired of being the crazy poster, if you or someone else wants my opinion on it, we can discuss it privately, as I already did with kittysk8ts.

You're a lovely poster @chapis

 

[millyskate]

@chapis Thanks for expressing your feelings. My thoughts when seeing the dances this year are "why are we giving these inaccurate/exaggerated stereotypes a pass for latin dances when we never would for other dances". My gut feeling is also that competitive ballroom dancing has strayed into ever increased exaggeration of movements and provocativeness and lost an awful lot of the charm and subtlety of the original dances, and it's a shame that we now associated the concept of latin dancing with these movements.
I was hoping one of the top dance pairs would do some advanced research and come up with something more interesting, but that hasn't happened.

 

[sap5]

I was hoping one of the top dance pairs would do some advanced research and come up with something more interesting, but that hasn't happened.

When I heard that Dean was the choreographer for P/C, I was expecting that, tbh, and was quite disappointed that it didn't happen. But we haven't seen everyone yet, so there's still hope. And I must say I really do like V/M's rumba section very much.

 

[millyskate]

When I heard that Dean was the choreographer for P/C, I was expecting that, tbh, and was quite disappointed that it didn't happen. But we haven't seen everyone yet, so there's still hope.

Yes. I'm sorry by the way, I thought this was the Dance Hall thread - I wouldn't have come to post in the V/M thread if I'd realised. The thought applies to all the couples. In my admitedly completely unknowledgeable mind, I associate latin with far more poetry than what we're seeing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgU3tXJGf-8