Showdown: 1988 vs. 2006

[gkelly]

Freeskates only!

How would you personally rank the following Olympic freeskating performances against each other by 6.0 standards?

Arakawa 2006
Cohen 2006
Ito 1988
Manley 1988
Rochette 2006
Slutskaya 2006
Suguri 2006
Thomas 1988
Trenary 1988
Witt 1988

 

[sonsofanarchy]

1. Ito- Only one to do 7 triples. Great steps, speed, pretty good spins. See no reason to not put her 1st personally. I doubt the judges would but that is immaterial to me.

2. Arakawa- Clean, sophisticated, elegant performance with moving movement and choreography and 5 very clean well done triples. Non jump elements solid if not spectacular.

3. Cohen- The performance was sublime outside of 2 glaring huge mistakes, and another wobbly landing. Would get the highest presentation score for me (5.9) but only a 5.5 or 5.6 for technical merit.

4. Manley- Loved the energy and attack of the performance, and huge beautifully done triple lutz. Only 4 triples, but very clean, unlike many of the others on this list, and non jump elements were quite strong, especialy for pre IJS standards.

5. Rochette- Pretty solid skate with only a few mistakes. Thought of putting her 4th. Under IJS probably should have been 2nd in the long over Cohen and Slutskaya.

6. Slutskaya- Messy performance, I only have her over Witt since she did much land a couple much harder jumps.

7. Witt- Only repeating the easiest triples, although well done. Too much posing, not even as great as potrayed artistically.

8. Suguri- boring, solid enough technically but that is it.

9. Trenary- I had to put her behind Suguri since she did even less technically than Witt. Performance overall polished but nothing too exciting or interesting.

10. Thomas- Only 2 triples landed, lots of mistakes, pretty obviously last.

 

[VGThuy]

If only Suguri did her Carmen LP from the season prior and skated it like she did at 4CC that season. Imo, it was better than both Witt’s and Thomas’ Carmen.

 

[sonsofanarchy]

If only Suguri did her Carmen LP from the season prior and skated it like she did at 4CC that season. Imo, it was better than both Witt’s and Thomas’ Carmen.

She also would have had a way better shot to medal that night given the other performances IMO. A very good one in fact.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I will always pick Cohen. She is totally sublime.. falls and all. I would rather watch Cohen for those sublime moments than watch someone rush around land a jump...rush over there land a jump. Sasha's connection to the music was always spot on.

 

[tony]

If only Suguri did her Carmen LP from the season prior and skated it like she did at 4CC that season. Imo, it was better than both Witt’s and Thomas’ Carmen.

Or her 2004 program(s). The US didn’t show either her short or long that year at Worlds but if you watch them... holy huge robbery. She was amazing!

 

[sonsofanarchy]

Or her 2004 program(s). The US didn’t show either her short or long that year at Worlds but if you watch them... holy huge robbery. She was amazing!

I am sure (or atleast hope) she was scored down since she was out of it after the Q round. Otherwise I hope she would have been given a medal or atleast 4th place with the same skates.

 

[Plusdinfo]

I can only think of three words that matter in a scenario like this: Ito in first.

 

[Marco]

Or her 2004 program(s). The US didn’t show either her short or long that year at Worlds but if you watch them... holy huge robbery. She was amazing!

Alas this was the year all Japanese ladies rose up, and the Fed probably didn't know who to root for. Heading into Worlds, Ando had won Nationals, Suguri had won GPF and Arakawa had just switched to Tarasova / Morosov.

Suguri's Paint It Black and Mozart programs were absolutely amazing and IMO she probably lost a placement or two in both the short and the free due to poor skate order after bombing the QR. She definitely deserved to be ahead of Ando overall.

 

[VGThuy]

It’s kind of sad that the celebratory GPF win would be the highlight of her international career. Sad how things went so downhill for her so quickly.

I always enjoyed watching Fumie from that period because it’s sort of amazing how she was like the anti-Cohen in almost every way imaginable. And that mini-rivalry that started when they were on equal footing was like a showcase of two extremes and it makes sense that they traded placements even towards the end where Fumie beat Cohen one last time at 2006 Worlds even when most recognized Cohen as the superior skater by then.

 

[Marco]

My take:

Arakawa 2006 5.7/5.8
Ito 1988 5.9/5.6
Cohen 2006 5.6/5.8
Rochette 2006 5.7/5.7
Manley 1988 5.6/5.6
Slutskaya 2006 5.6/5.5
Suguri 2006 5.6/5.4
Witt 1988 5.3/5.6
Trenary 1988 5.3/5.5
Thomas 1988 5.2/5.4

 

[tony]

It’s kind of sad that the celebratory GPF win would be the highlight of her international career. Sad how things went so downhill for her so quickly.

I always enjoyed watching Fumie from that period because it’s sort of amazing how she was like the anti-Cohen in almost every way imaginable. And that mini-rivalry that started when they were on equal footing was like a showcase of two extremes and it makes sense that they traded placements even towards the end where Fumie beat Cohen one last time at 2006 Worlds even when most recognized Cohen as the superior skater by then.

Her 2007 long was avant-garde and interesting (and even some WTF funny choreography in the middle), and it was a huge surprise when she missed out on the World team. But after that- meh. 2006, at least the free skate, was just a huge miss in the most important season.

2001-2005 though is just a bunch of wonderful stuff from Fumie.


Also, I'm fairly sure in 1988 the technical mark was still the tie-breaker, wasn't it? So which rules are we using on tie scores in this hypothetical?

 

[Marco]

It’s kind of sad that the celebratory GPF win would be the highlight of her international career. Sad how things went so downhill for her so quickly.

I always enjoyed watching Fumie from that period because it’s sort of amazing how she was like the anti-Cohen in almost every way imaginable. And that mini-rivalry that started when they were on equal footing was like a showcase of two extremes and it makes sense that they traded placements even towards the end where Fumie beat Cohen one last time at 2006 Worlds even when most recognized Cohen as the superior skater by then.

Suguri does have 3 World medals and 3 4CCs titles to add to her accomplishments.

 

[VGThuy]

At least her costumes were nice in 2006. I loved Fumie’s SP in Torino (as did Dick Button who seemed so proud of her after watching her all these years and loved her dependability), but IJS with the then-new level 4 requirements did her no favors. Her skating was best when it allowed her to flow and glide and her unorthodox carriage and lack of stretch actually lent her to more modern style choreography so it seems her features did not compliment each other but she somehow usually made it work. Don’t know what happened with Rachmaninoff but at least it got her a Japanese title in a heavily competitive field leading to Torino.

 

[Marco]

Her 2007 long was avant-garde and interesting (and even some WTF funny choreography in the middle), and it was a huge surprise when she missed out on the World team.

It was? Asada had become age eligible, Ando had gotten her groove back after moving to Morosov, and Nakano was pretty neck and neck with Suguri (albeit just a tad below) for much of the 2006 and 2007 seasons. By 2007 Suguri was only attempting 5 triples and 2 2axels and her skating regressed, most notably in spins, so I was not surprised Nakano won out when she skated well.

2001-2005 though is just a bunch of wonderful stuff from Fumie.

Absolutely. Her 2002 programs were pure and serene; the 2004 programs were a delight and the 2005 Carmen was simply stunning. Even the 2003 Swan Lake was not that bad despite her lack of balletic qualities - the 2 step sequences stood out.

However, her transition to IJS was not successful because her lack of flexibility limited her spin and spiral options. Ironically her spins and spirals were mighty fine in Moonlight Sonata in 2002. By 2006, they were quite below average. Obviously, her inability to do a 3/3 or 3loop/sal most times also affected her bronze medal standing when Arakawa, Ando, Kostner or even Cohen rose up. Then again even Kwan started to slip.

 

[VGThuy]

I was always amazed by her spiral sequence in her “Paint it Black” SP as she did no crossovers in-between the spirals once she started. I thought it was ballsy and sort of showed the judges and us she could do something some others couldn’t do (namely the favorite that season). I thought it was a wonderful way of highlighting her strength but IJS didn’t really reward it and I don’t think most people watching noticed.

ETA: Just rewatched that SP, and I maintain adding level 4s was the worst thing to happen to skating.

 

[tony]

It was? Asada had become age eligible, Ando had gotten her groove back after moving to Morosov, and Nakano was pretty neck and neck with Suguri (albeit just a tad below) for much of the 2006 and 2007 seasons. By 2007 Suguri was only attempting 5 triples and 2 2axels and her skating regressed, most notably in spins, so I was not surprised Nakano won out when she skated well.

She had a good Grand Prix season in 2007. I know I was personally surprised when Nakano snuck in over her (even though I absolutely loved Nakano and she had a wonderful SP that year), and Ando wasn't having a great season until she put it all together at Worlds. It was a LONG time ago and I was in the middle of my college days, but I think people actually were very surprised that didn't qualify.

She made it back to Worlds in 2009 but with very zzz content.

 

[Marco]

ETA: Just rewatched that SP, and I maintain adding level 4s was the worst thing to happen to skating.

It's not adding level 4s that's bad - it's that too many features were flexibility / position related. They all went after the features in expense for quality. Like, there is only one Alissa Czisny in the world.

 

[gkelly]

It's not adding level 4s that's bad - it's that too many features were flexibility / position related.

Agreed.

Once only three positions counted, and a change of foot was still required, pretty much everybody chose only the edge change for a one-foot transition. The change of free leg position between forward, side, and backward was rare, and turning between forward and backward was pretty much unknown since spiral position had to be held 3 seconds before and after.

I do like the idea of a leveled spiral sequence as a way to encourage added difficulty of edge control in extended positions. But there were a lot of types of difficulty, especially blade-to-ice skills, related to spirals that either were not rewarded at all or were too difficult to achieve for the same reward compared to easier skills.

 

[lucaslavoie]

I don't think Suguri was ever the Japanese fed favorite so she had to be that much better to be noticed. Even when she was Japanese #1 I think they always preferred someone else, be it Arakawa, Onda for awhile, Ando, or Asada to rise up and shine.

 

[Coco]

At least her costumes were nice in 2006. I loved Fumie’s SP in Torino (as did Dick Button who seemed so proud of her after watching her all these years and loved her dependability), but IJS with the then-new level 4 requirements did her no favors. Her skating was best when it allowed her to flow and glide and her unorthodox carriage and lack of stretch actually lent her to more modern style choreography so it seems her features did not compliment each other but she somehow usually made it work. Don’t know what happened with Rachmaninoff but at least it got her a Japanese title in a heavily competitive field leading to Torino.

I think a more COP savvy choreographer could have helped her a lot in 2006. I suppose that would be true of everyone (except Arakawa) to some extent. But it seems like she and whoever she worked with did all this great, creative work up to that season, then went super conservative.

Even though hopes of making the Japanese World Championships team were getting more and more faint by this time, one of my fave programs of hers was her Take 5 SP that Zhulin choreographed. It was one of the more musical step sequences I'd seen since IJS was introduced.

Fumie Suguri 07-08 SP Take Five

Japan National Championship in Dec 2007

www.youtube.com

 

[Marco]

Once only three positions counted, and a change of foot was still required, pretty much everybody chose only the edge change for a one-foot transition. The change of free leg position between forward, side, and backward was rare, and turning between forward and backward was pretty much unknown since spiral position had to be held 3 seconds before and after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKi_wHwImL0

I have always wondered how the opening move by Michelle here - provided the FI spiral was held longer with free leg a little higher, which we are all sure she could do, would be regarded under IJS. Esp in 2005 when she was struggling with coping with COP elements (mostly not holding them long enough), I always felt this little combination move could save her day. Although this would also mean she could no longer do her signature COE spiral.

 

[gkelly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKi_wHwImL0

I have always wondered how the opening move by Michelle here - provided the FI spiral was held longer with free leg a little higher, which we are all sure she could do, would be regarded under IJS.

Dropping leg to out of spiral position to make a three turn (or rocker or counter, as Slutskaya often did in her SP spiral sequences before IJS, and Kwan did at least once early in her career) was never a feature under IJS.

I think it should have been.

I also think that that a BO to FI choctaw between a BO spiral and a FI spiral should have been a feature. Maybe some other (or all) choctaws or mohawks as well.

In each of these cases, there would need to be specific requirements for how long the spiral position is held before and after the turn (3 seconds?) and for how long the skater is permitted to be out of position to make the turn (1 second?).

In my personal experience and from what I've witnessed at my local rink, dropping the leg to make these turns and then getting it right back up again is more difficult than changing edge while maintaining a spiral position.

Skid turns (or clean turns, if possible) while keeping the free foot above hip height is even harder, which is why we never saw it under IJS even though it was listed as a feature. My recommendation would have been to give credit for a feature if the skater could execute the turn in spiral position and hold the exit edge for 1 second, double credit if they could hold it for 3 seconds.

 

[Coco]

To get credit for that FI-BO change of direction spiral under at least that COP version and maybe subsequent ones, she would have had to keep the free leg above hip height.

It could have been accomplished with a half illusion turn. With abs of steel, of course.